John 1:1 - Jesus is the Father or he's not the one true God?
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To some, it is, yes, because they erroneously think there are "hundreds of verses that preclude" the triune Jehovah. There are none ~ they actually do quite the opposite ~ so it's quite the same story in that respect.
Are you trying to make some kind of correlation in what you say here to what Paul is saying in Philippians 2:5? Because that whole passage is about His Christ's Jesus mindset during his entire life on earth of total humility.
Surely you're not suggesting that we should regard Jesus as some sort of lunatic.
Jesus told us that He and the Father are one, He assigned the name of God to Himself, He did things only God can do, and He described Himself in terms only reserved for God, and acknowledged His own glory with the Father from all eternity. Among other things. :)
Grace and peace to you, Rich.
Fantastic, then you acknowledge that Jesus is the object of Christian hope just as Paul says in Titus 2:13.
Indeed. And I would reach that conclusion regardless of whether Titus 2:13 were interpreted as (1) Jesus Christ is the great God and Savior; (2) the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ are two different entities; or (3) Jesus Christ is in apposition to δόξα, with τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν referring solely to God. (No one has mentioned this third possibility yet.)
I happen to favor (1) as the right interpretation. I just happen to think your reason for favoring it is based on an unsupportable claim about proper use of Greek syntax. We're on the same team here theologically. Lingusitically, we're not.
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Ah yes, more "information." Yes, let's have it... :)
And I... may not. :)
Meaning you pretty much copied and pasted a bunch of stuff. Okay. :)
Right, that's true, but that's not all.
Well, verse 8 is not just about His eternality. But it is assuredly indicative of His eternality.
It does both, APAK.
Sure, but you should read about it as pertaining to all "todays," if you will, from eternity past to eternity future.
Not at all. And, of course, Christ Himself said, "Before Abraham was, I AM." (John 8:58).
That should be enough. We should be careful, as Paul tells us, not to have itching ears (2 Timothy 4:3). May the Holy Spirit be with you. :)
Grace and peace to you.
I get that a lot, even on this site, about copying and pasting, and truly much of it comes, the words at least, comes from my own brain and not from others. We all learn from someplace including the HS.
I use sources to add credibility because many folks are so vain and prideful that they do not consider a 'nobody' bringing anything of value to them that would persuade them of anything. And I also use some sources to enhance, amplify and highlight what I have come to know as true, like in this subject.
I see you are firmly in the corner of the 3 persons-one god paradigm and nothing with ever change your mind, even if you are provided with a commentary that denies this paradigm of yours is scriptural and God inspired.
Great Day
Sure.
Well, agreed, but regarding the things we are talking about, no one is going to be persuaded unless the Holy Spirit helps them to discern correctly. This is His job. :) They may think they have come to know things, but they may not have... :) Job found this out the hard way, starting in Job 38:1, and when it was finished, he wisely said to God, "I know that You can do all things, and that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted... Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know... I had heard of You by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees You; therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes." (Job 42:1-6).
Right. Thanks be to God.
Yes, the commentary is the problem, APAK. There are a lot of commentaries out there, of many different kinds, you know. But as Paul says (and I alluded to before), "For the time is coming..." (is now here) "...when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths."
Same to you, my friend. Grace and peace to you.
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The grammar, even the very linguistics, is indisputable: therefore, all people are liars who say that Titus 2:13 says something different than the grammar that the Apostle Paul specifically used which I outlined. Titus 2:13 adulterated by any person makes the outcome a lie, whether out of ignorance or out of malfeasance.
A liar adulterates the words that Paul recorded in Titus 2:13 regardless of whether out of ignorance or malfeasance; in other words, it is not a dispute, but it is a lie.
The post is also to @DavidB and @APAK because they like tigger 2's post.
Titus 2:13 truthfully properly exegeted with Greek grammar rules applied maintains consistent Apostolic testimony.
Here is the English-Greek full word-for-word of Titus 2:13:
awaiting-προσδεχόμενοι the-τὴν blessed-μακαρίαν hope-ἐλπίδα and-καὶ appearing-ἐπιφάνειαν the-τῆς glory-δόξης the-τοῦ great-μεγάλου God-Θεοῦ and-καὶ Savior-Σωτῆρος us-ἡμῶν Christ-Χριστοῦ Jesus-Ἰησοῦ
All of "God", "Savior", "Christ", and "Jesus" are genitive, singular, and masculine thus they are to be taken together as a single cohesive unit according to Greek grammar rules, and this unit has the genitive singular adjectives "glory" and "great" pointing at this unit for all the genitive singular words are inextricably tied together according to Greek grammar rules.
The logical "and" in the phrase "our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus" (Titus 2:13) is linguistically tied to Jesus Christ because the word "hope", which is singular, as well as the word "glory", which is singular, in the phrase "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of" (Titus 2:13); therefore, Paul singularly refers to "our great God" and "Savior" and "Christ Jesus" as One singular.
See that linguistically, "hope" and "glory" would need to be plural in order for "our great God" and "Savior" and "Christ Jesus" to be disassociated in the evil manner which you think applies.
THE APOSTLE PAUL INDISPUTABLY CALLS JESUS "THE GREAT GOD" (τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ) WITH "LOOKING FOR THE BLESSED HOPE AND THE APPEARING OF THE GLORY OF THE GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR OF US, CHRIST JESUS" (TITUS 2:13).
The Greek grammar rules make it utterly clear in order to avoid confusion, yet you have managed to confuse yourself unto eternal punishment according to your current state. You confuse Paul's words while you neglect the greater Apostolic testimony.
Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8) (see see the Truth [John 14:6] that God had me compose in post #283 to expose the deception of tigger 2 and Rich R).
You don't seem to understand much of what I say. How in the world you have me saying Jesus is a lunatic is beyond me.
I do, actually. I've heard it all many times before.
Well, I don't "have you saying that," per se, but if what you're saying were true, that would be the inevitable result.
Grace and peace to you.
Hot on the trail of some more truth again I see.
So you believe you are on a mission to sort out Paul's intentions and clear it all up for him and for us as you think he was deliberately ambiguous in Titus 2:13 and never addressed Jesus as the only (great) God, as part of a Trinity that Paul never knew at all. Quite impressive work aye?!
Titus 1:4 clears it up for me already without you going around and fiddling with it and trying to change Paul's intent of Titus 2:13.
(Tit 1:4) To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.(ESV)
(Tit 2:13) waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, (ESV)
And what is the glory of our great God? It is the blessed hope of salvation for all the chosen of the Father, when the Father's Son returns in glory and power and thus the Father is glorified in the process. Do you actually think that God Almighty the Father, will be seen in the 'clouds?' He has no form and he is invisible. How will you see him? Only through his Son and his visible appearance at his Parousia of course.
I suggest you might want to get your head out of the damp darkness, and into the glorious warm light, where it shines in glory.
Happy trails...
Taken
Well-Known Member
John 1:1 - Jesus is the Father or he's not the one true God?
OP ^
Knowledge is one thing.
Understanding the Knowledge is another thing.
Seeing the Manifestation of the Knowledge is another thing.
* Jesus IS the Word, Truth, Way, Life, Servant, Lord, Savior, Forgiver, Righteousness OF God.
* Yes the Word, Truth, Way, Life, Servant, Lord, Righteousness, Savior, OF God IS God.
* Christ IS the Spirit, Light, Power, Seed, Wisdom, Quickener, of God.
* Yes the Spirit, Light, Power, Seed, Wisdom, Quickener of God IS God.
* Yes God IS invisible.
* Yes Humans Can Hear, Trust, Believe, Commit to the Belief...
Of WHO GOD ‘wholly’ IS, VIA the Knowledge.
* Yes Humans Can “SEE” and “EXPERIENCE” the Effects/Results of GOD, during their earthly life time.
* Yes this day (before physical death) Humans can BECOME:
Their sins forgiven.
Their soul restored/saved.
Their spirit quickened/born again.
Kept forever, WITH the Lord God, via HIS indwelt POWER.
(The BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, VIA, the Lamb of God).
* And SHALL be raised up in a glorified sinless body.
* Yes, ON THAT DAY, of being raised bodily in Glory...
* THEN SHALL that man “SEE” God as HE IS.
Knowledge IS;
YES, the WHOLE of which is IN God IS God.
YES, that which is IN God, sent forth out from God, continues to Remain IN God, IS God.
Gods Knowledge, Gods Truth, Gods Word, Gods Power, Gods Light, etc. IS sent forth out from God, Yet Remains IN God, IS God.
The WHOLE of God is called in Reference to the WHOLE...the Father.
The Word of God is called in Reference to the WORD of God...the Son.
ManKind IS NOT “YET”, fully prepared TO “SEE” or “EXPERIENCE” the WHOLE of God.
If that be too complicated to digest...
Parallel it to your own children.
A parent gives knowledge ABOUT many things, from tidiness, to behaviors, to operating machinery, cars, to sexual encounters...
long before the child is prepared to “experience” and “see” those things.
Jesus IS a PART of God.
Any PART of God IS God.
The Knowledge IS God the Father, IS the WHOLE of God.
* WHEN (according to Gods end of these days Separation of those WITH Him and those AGAINST Him)...
The WHOLE of God SHALL be Revealed for those WITH God to “SEE” the WHOLE of God...
* The Language SHALL then CHANGE for all that are WITH God..
There will be NO FATHER/SON reference TO God.
Rev 21:
[7] He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Glory to God,
Taken
OP ^
Knowledge is one thing.
Understanding the Knowledge is another thing.
Seeing the Manifestation of the Knowledge is another thing.
* Jesus IS the Word, Truth, Way, Life, Servant, Lord, Savior, Forgiver, Righteousness OF God.
* Yes the Word, Truth, Way, Life, Servant, Lord, Righteousness, Savior, OF God IS God.
* Christ IS the Spirit, Light, Power, Seed, Wisdom, Quickener, of God.
* Yes the Spirit, Light, Power, Seed, Wisdom, Quickener of God IS God.
* Yes God IS invisible.
* Yes Humans Can Hear, Trust, Believe, Commit to the Belief...
Of WHO GOD ‘wholly’ IS, VIA the Knowledge.
* Yes Humans Can “SEE” and “EXPERIENCE” the Effects/Results of GOD, during their earthly life time.
* Yes this day (before physical death) Humans can BECOME:
Their sins forgiven.
Their soul restored/saved.
Their spirit quickened/born again.
Kept forever, WITH the Lord God, via HIS indwelt POWER.
(The BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, VIA, the Lamb of God).
* And SHALL be raised up in a glorified sinless body.
* Yes, ON THAT DAY, of being raised bodily in Glory...
* THEN SHALL that man “SEE” God as HE IS.
Knowledge IS;
YES, the WHOLE of which is IN God IS God.
YES, that which is IN God, sent forth out from God, continues to Remain IN God, IS God.
Gods Knowledge, Gods Truth, Gods Word, Gods Power, Gods Light, etc. IS sent forth out from God, Yet Remains IN God, IS God.
The WHOLE of God is called in Reference to the WHOLE...the Father.
The Word of God is called in Reference to the WORD of God...the Son.
ManKind IS NOT “YET”, fully prepared TO “SEE” or “EXPERIENCE” the WHOLE of God.
If that be too complicated to digest...
Parallel it to your own children.
A parent gives knowledge ABOUT many things, from tidiness, to behaviors, to operating machinery, cars, to sexual encounters...
long before the child is prepared to “experience” and “see” those things.
Jesus IS a PART of God.
Any PART of God IS God.
The Knowledge IS God the Father, IS the WHOLE of God.
* WHEN (according to Gods end of these days Separation of those WITH Him and those AGAINST Him)...
The WHOLE of God SHALL be Revealed for those WITH God to “SEE” the WHOLE of God...
* The Language SHALL then CHANGE for all that are WITH God..
There will be NO FATHER/SON reference TO God.
Rev 21:
[7] He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Glory to God,
Taken
New Testament Greek, also known as Koine (common) Greek or Alexandrian Greek, was originally used in the geographically dispersed armies of Alexander the Great, according to historians.
Linguists and historians explain that Alexandrian Greek is a simplification of the Greek spoken and written in Attica, the region around Athens in Greece, known as Attic Greek.
Historians further claim that Alexander needed a precise language for his disparate armies, which were comprised of people of many lands and differing languages, to have a common language that precisely conveyed the commands of their army chief from one side of the empire to the other, and that language is what we call Alexandrian Greek or NT Greek.
By the time of Jesus, Alexandrian Greek was the lingua franca of the Mediterranean.
Alexander became a ruler because God brought it to pass. Paul wrote "there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God" (Romans 13:1).
Clearly, one result of God establishing Alexander's reign includes the widespread use of the well-defined precise language of NT Greek or Alexandrian Greek.
Alexandrian Greek is a precision language with specific grammar rules and linguistics resulting in clarity of communication, and Paul leveraged that clarity in Titus 2:13, even when Titus 2:13 is aligned with other Scripture.
The Apostle Paul was precisely clear with his grammar when he wrote in Alexandrian Greek that Jesus is "the great God" with "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of the great God and Savior of us, Christ Jesus" (Titus 2:13).
The only spiritually accurate reading of Titus 2:13 is "(1) Jesus Christ is the great God and Savior".
"Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the Word" (Luke 1:1-2).
Luke wrote "eyewitnesses" "of the Word" (Luke 1:2), and the "eyewitnesses" includes people like the Apostle Thomas who humbly acknowledged "My Lord and my God" to to TO Jesus (John 20:28).
In Luke 1:1-2, the word "Word" is translated from the Greek word "Logos".
The "eyewitnesses" includes people like the Apostle John who illuminates the Word is Jesus with "the Word became flesh" (John 1:14).
In John 1:14, the word "Word" is translated from the Greek word "Logos".
Both the Apostle John and Luke illuminate that Jesus is the Word.
Thus John refers to Jesus in John 1:1-5 as the "Word" and "He" and "Him" and "Life" and "Light":
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the Life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
In John 1:1-5, the word "Word" is translated from the Greek word "Logos".
The following describes how "Word", "He", "Him", "Life", and "Light" all refer to Jesus.
The first word of John 1:2 is "He", and that "He" is the "Word" in John 1:1, and that "He" in John 1:2 is the "Him" in John 1:3 and John 1:4; moreover, the "Him" in John 1:3 is the "Life" in John 1:4, and the "Him" in John 1:3 is the "Light" in John 1:4 and John 1:5.
Truly, we have a Spiritually accurate linguistic linkage from "Light" in John 1:5 back to "Word" in John 1:1.
Jesus says "While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world" (John 9:6), so we have Jesus being the Light in John 1:4-5 and John 9:6.
Jesus says "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life" (John 14:6), so we have Jesus being the Life in in John 1:4 and John 14:6.
John witnesses that Jesus is the Word with "the Word became flesh" (John 1:14), so we have John further identifying Jesus as the Word (Logos).
Lord Jesus Christ is the Word of God (John 1:1-5, John 1:14), a.k.a. the Logos of Theos, and the Word of God is God.
Jesus, truly God, is the God of Jesus, truly Man; moreover, Jesus, truly God, is God with the Father.
Jesus reveals Himself as truly God and truly Man at His discretion.
Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.
Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.
Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.
Here is an instance of Jesus, truly God, saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of God thus including both the person of Jesus and the person of the Father in the One True God.
Here is another instance, this time of Jesus, truly Man, saying "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (John 20:17) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of Man thus including the person of Jesus and His brothers in one (John 17:21). See, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8).
We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.
We, born of the Holy Spirit of God persons (John 3:3-8), are one in God (John 17:21) because of the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17), thus God is One. We are the blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God's work in us.
Rich R, you demonstrated your unbelief about Jesus in A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians and you are persisting in your fight against the Word of God.
Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8) (see see the Truth [John 14:6] that God had me compose in post #283 to expose the deception of tigger 2 and Rich R).
I'm not sure what you mean by "like the Apostle Thomas" here. Are you suggesting that Luke interviewed Thomas, or interviewed people who overheard Thomas say what John 20:28 later records Thomas as saying?
I'm not sure what you mean by "like the Apostle John" here. Are you suggesting that Luke interviewed the Apostle John (presuming him to be the author of the Fourth Gospel), or interviewed people who were told by him what John 1:14 later states?
Luke wrote ""Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the Word" (Luke 1:1-2).
I am saying that eyewitnesses of the Word include people like Thomas and John. Luke explains clearly that eyewitnesses "handed down" an account of the things accomplished.
Are you suggesting that Thomas and John are not eyewitnesses of the Word?
No. I'm suggesting that we have no evidence Luke ever met either one of them, and no reason to believe that what is recounted by John 20:28 and John 1:14 was ever told to Luke by anyone.
Not a single word of Luke's gospel would be any different if Thomas had never said "My Lord and my God," or if John had never written "And the word became flesh and dwelt amongst us."
Well, your writing does not match Luke's writing because Luke clearly wrote that eyewitnesses "handed down" an "account of the things accomplished" by "the Word" of God (Luke 1:1-2); therefore, the content of John 20:28 and John 1:14 most certainly are eyewitness accounts.
The content of John 20:28 and of John 1:14 may well be eyewitness accounts (let's assume it) -- but that hardly means those accounts were included in any of the "many" compilations mentioned in Luke 1:1 as being handed down by eyewitnesses, or in Luke's own gospel (which doesn't recount either one).
So, I must quibble with your use of the word "therefore." The existence of many handed-down eyewitness accounts at the time Luke put pen to parchment tells us nothing about whether the events of John 20:28 and John 1:14 were or were not included in those eyewitness accounts.
RedFan, look at "the Word" in Luke 1:2 and "the Word" in John 1:14, so "the Word" is used in common by Luke as well as John to refer to Lord Jesus Christ.
This is the point for @Rich R, RedFan.
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