Job, and the precursor event to the great tribulation.

[Ronald D Milam]

The scroll is the deed to the earth, not a list of punishments.... Had God wanted to open the scroll could have been opened in the first century, But the mystery of the church age was inserted into the timeline. We are with Paul "born out of due time". (1 Corinthians 15:8) That is because what is spoken of in this post before the end can begin....if you look closely you will see this in the Olivet discourse both in Luke and Matthew.

The Seals seal a book/scroll. You have this grand idea in your mind that is just not correct, hence you will see what you want to see. The Seals are not about the Church Age. You just dodged the facts I represent that Rev. 4:1 is the HEREAFTER and thus Rev. 4:4 shows us who these 24 Elders represent.

Rev. 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Now follow along brother here and understand this is THE CHURCH whom overcame in heaven.

Rev. 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Rev. 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Can you not see that? This is the Church in Heaven BEFORE the Seals are ever opened, you have to be very keen to understand the book of Revelation my brother. Jesus told the Disciples that he spoke to them in parables so they hearing would understand, but the world hearing would not understand.

In Rev. 2:10, the 10 days of troubles means the COMPLETE Church Age as in 10 = Completion. In Rev. 4:1 Jesus tells John to come up here, John was given visions of future events, John saw his own coming Rapture. He then saw the Church in Heaven. But also in verse 1 Jesus tells him the things which you are about to see is the HEREAFTER........After what? Well, go back and look at what Jesus called The Church Age of the 7 Churches. Lets Go.........Zoom, zoom, zoom.

Rev. 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

So, in Rev. chapter 1 we see Jesus in all his Glory, John is to write about that. Then John is to write about the 7 (Remember 7 and 10 = COMPLETION) Churches in Asia-minor. They represent the complete Church Age (however long that is) and the many different types of churches and the many challenges churches will face and must overcome during the "Church Age". So, John was living on earth during the Church Age, so he lived in the THINGS WHICH ARE period from verse 19 above. Thus in Rev. 4:1 John is shown the coming Rapture, he will be Raptured like all of us and then shown the 24 Elders which represents the Church, we see that in 1 Chronicles 24 there were 24 Orders of the Priesthood, in Rev. 1:6 we are called Kings and Priests unto our God.

Rev. 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

So, the 24 Elders represents the Church in all of our Priesthood qualities. We are then shown to be sitting at God's THRONE, with White Raiment Robes on AND we have on Gold CROWNS, ALL three were promised to those who OVERCAME !! That is the perfect picture of the Church, in Heaven with Jesus BEFORE any seals are ever opened. Then in Rev. 5 we see more proof this is the Church.

Rev. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Angels do not need redeeming, this is The Church in Heaven before the Seals have ever been opened. This PROVES a Pre Trib Rapture. The Church is in Heaven before any seals are opened. The Jewish Groom always stayed in the marriage chambers with his bride for 7 days (7 years). The Church age is not a part of the HEREAFTER: but NOTICE: Everything in Revelation past the Church Age is in the HEREAFTER. Nothing after Rev. 4:1 is a part f the Church Age period.

Then why do you comment to us pre wrathers etc.? To convert us? Remember i was a pre tribber until the Holy Ghost started teaching me. Over and over again I see pre tribbers converting to pre wrathers the more they actually study the word of God alone. I do not have stats to back this up, just my experience.

I comment as called by God to speak truth to power. The only pre tribbers converting are those who do not understand the scriptures in full. My gift is understanding prophecy, the book of Revelation and its time-line, the truth is even most preachers and biblical scholars have no clue of the book of Revelation's timeline (the S is because I am pointing out the MANY TIMELINES in each chapter). No one "of the Church" will be here during the 70th week tribulation, that is Jacobs troubles. Not the Church Age time, we were given the Church Age commission to take the gospel unto the whole world, we have basically done that, our mission will end when Jesus sounds the LAST TRUMP, which actually ended the Harvest in Israel every year, did you know the 100th Trump in the Feast of Trumps ends the Harvest every year? The Church is Harvesting souls for God. After the Trumps there are two Harvests left, the Feast of Atonement (Israel MUST ATONE before the 70th week ends and does so in Zechariah 13:8-9), thus that Feast is Fulfilled, just as Jesus fulfilled the Passover, the Unleavened Bread (Jesus was without sin), and the First-fruits (Jesus was the first-fruits of the grave). We (Church) are fulfilling the Pentecost, Feast of weeks Harvest.

When Israel ATONES after the Last Trump ends (see Rev. 4:1 Jesus SOUNDS as a Trump) the Harvest that will leave only one Feast yet to be fulfilled, the Feast of Tabernacle, now look that words Hebrew word definition up, it means to DWELL with God and thus Jesus setting up his 1000 year reign in Jerusalem would qualify as Israel DWELLING with God thus fulfilling all 7 Feasts. These were called Holy Convocations, and do you know what that means in Hebrew? Dress Rehearsals !!

So, the 7 Feasts were God showing Israel/World His future PLANS from Jesus fulfilling the three Spring Feasts to the very day in each case, the Rapture should thus be in the FALL because the Feast of Trumps are in the fall, the LAST TRUMP ends the Harvest, its not a Revelation Trumpet Judgment !! You know what post trib and pre wrath people do with all of this info, look the other and stay quite because it proves a pre trib Rapture.

The key words are "man" and "prevailed". When did the man Jesus prevail? before that no man had prevailed.

The KEY is understanding the Church is already in Heaven.

 

[David H.]

So, the 24 Elders represents the Church in all of our Priesthood qualities. We are then shown to be sitting at God's THRONE, with White Raiment Robes on AND we have on Gold CROWNS, ALL three were promised to those who OVERCAME !! That the perfect picture of the Church, in Heaven with Jesus BEFORE any seals are ever opened. Then in Rev. 5 we see more proof this is the Church.

Rev. 1:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Angels do not need redeeming, this is The Church in Heaven before the Seals have ever been opened. This PROVES a Pre Trib Rapture. The Church is in Heaven before any seals are opened. The Jewish Groom always stayed in the marriage chambers with his bride for 7 days (7 years). The Church age is nit a part of the HEREAFTER, BUT NOTICE: Everything in Revelation past the Church Age is in the HEREAFTER. Nothing after Rev. 4:1 is a part f the Church Age, period.

loosing the seals and opening the scroll are two different events. (BTW it is Revelation 5:9 not 1:9)

Opening the scroll does not happen till after the rapture, I agree, the rapture happens when the sixth seal is loosed which has yet to happen. That is because the mystery of the church age was inserted.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

loosing the seals and opening the scroll are two different events. (BTW it is Revelation 5:9 not 1:9)

Opening the scroll does not happen till after the rapture, I agree, the rapture happens when the sixth seal is loosed which has yet to happen. That is because the mystery of the church age was inserted.

No, opening the Seals happens after the Rapture, as pointed out, don't be a lib like Dem who fudges the facts as presented sit. Here is the truth anyway, all of the Seals are taken off at the exact same time as the book is opened, Jesus doesn't sit there for a whole week, month and open the seals, he opens each seal then IMMEDIALY OPEND the Scroll.

Its this the SAME EVENT, but of course, I break it down where no one can even fudge the truth without being proven in error. Jesus is opening EACH SEAL with the Church in Heaven, as Rev. 4 proves, 100 %. Thus your dodging of the point I made by trying to fudge that the Church is in Heaven when the Book is open is irrelevant, the Church is in Heaven as EACH SEAL is open, period. Trying to dodge that just proves your whole understanding hasn't got a leg to stand on.

Here is the question I am interested in, don't you want to know the truth? Or are men's IDEAS more important than the truth? I destroyed that assumption for you, yet you cling to it anyway, I don't get that tbh.

 

[David H.]

No, opening the Seals happens after the Rapture, as pointed out, don't be a lib like Dem who fudges the facts as presented sit.

Leave the personal attacks out of your responses, as they are not needed to have a conversation.

Here is the truth anyway, all of the Seals are taken off at the exact same time as the book is opened, Jesus doesn't sit there for a whole week, month and open the seals, he opens each seal then IMMEDIALY OPEND the Scroll.

You cannot prove this with scripture. A seal is not the same as the content of the scroll. A seal can be broken one at a time or all at once and yet the scroll not be opened, this is simple logic I am using, not "lib like Dem" thinking. Like most of Old Testament Prophecy there can be jumps of thousands of years in the same passage that only those with discernment can see. That is what is happening in Revelation 5. An example of this in the OT is Micah 5, where the messiah is shown coming from Bethlehem often quoted at Christmas time, to the second coming and overcoming the "Assyrian". Or the passage from Isaiah 61 That Jesus applied to himself as he read this in the synagogue but did not read the entire passage because it points to the day of the LORD.

Here is the question I am interested in, don't you want to know the truth? Or are men's IDEAS more important than the truth? I destroyed that assumption for you, yet you cling to it anyway, I don't get that tbh.

What I am teaching does not come from men but from the Holy Ghost, that is why there is no one else teaching or speaking of what I am talking of. If you were a wise Christian, you would test the Spirit in me to see if it is of God or not or at the very least be a Berrean about what I am teaching.... You are doing neither.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Leave the personal attacks out of your responses, as they are not needed to have a conversation.

1.) Why is me saying do not FUFDGE like a liberal Dem an attack, I didn't say you were a liberal Dem, which would be your own right, who cares, but the point is THEY FUDGE THE ISSUES. So, how is me saying you DODGE THE FACTS an attack? I have been a Christian for 37 years, in the last 5 years I have never seen so many offended Christians who don't even understand what a Juxtaposition is. Maybe this is just another dodge (probably not). LETS GUILT TRIP SOMEONE..... If you didn't understand the juxtaposition I made was saying you DODGE the points I made then that's on you, its a simple juxtaposition I made brother. The best example I could use is Lib Dems who always dodge the questions and obfuscate, everyone knows that. The point stands sir, why dodge the factual points which defeat your arguments? So, if you were teaching 2 + 2 x 10 was 87, and I proved it was 40, and you just ignored the math equation where I proved it, talked about somethin else, then came back later with 2 + 2 x 10 was 87, after knowing I posted a factual presentation that showed it was 40, then you would be dodging the facts, no matter what I compared that dodging unto, its still you dodging a math problem, not being a liberal Dem. These are not complicated comparisons my brother. I think in our current world the default go to move is to try and guilt trip people, or else people just do not understand proper English at times, or maybe they just get offended by someone proving their ideas were incorrect. I have been know to react like that a long time ago, before God basically told me the reason thhat the Church doesn't understand things in unison is we "Know it all already". Now, I don't know it all until the KNOWER of it all tells me it all. Until He does I just say its a guess now.

You cannot prove this with scripture. A seal is not the same as the content of the scroll. A seal can be broken one at a time or all at once and yet the scroll not be opened, this is simple logic I am using, not "lib like Dem" thinking. Like most of Old Testament Prophecy there can be jumps of thousands of years in the same passage that only those with discernment can see. That is what is happening in Revelation 5. An example of this in the OT is Micah 5, where the messiah is shown coming from Bethlehem often quoted at Christmas time, to the second coming and overcoming the "Assyrian". Or the passage from Isaiah 61 That Jesus applied to himself as he read this in the synagogue but did not read the entire passage because it points to the day of the LORD.

Revelation 8:6, The Angels prepare to SOUND the Trumpet Judgments.

Revelation 15:1 The Angels PREPARE to pour out the 7 Vials of God's Wrath.

Nowhere in the Seals are they called Judgments, the First 5 are the Anti-Christ, he can't be a Judgment of God. The 6th Seal is taken off, instead of foretelling about the coming Anti-Christ as the first 5 seals did Jesus here foretells about the coming Wrath of God. The book is still sealed up, anyone from 2000 years ago knew this, the scroll can not be opened and read until all 7 seals are off. A demonstration of a Locked closet sometimes makes people see this better, people have been trained for years that the Seals are Judgments, as I believed for 30 years.

So, lets say you have a birthday party for your 50th birthday and 100 people show up. You had some very nice gifts sent in the mail from special friends but you placed them in a locked closet in your living room. Then you placed 7 locks on your closet door. (just for a comparison, the 7 means COMPLETELY LOCKED as in 7 just means completeness)

Everyone gathers around as you start to open lock number 1, as you open the lock you describe a beautiful Harmonica a friend sent you. As you open lock #2 you describe a nice suite someone sent you. As you open lock #3 you describe in vivid detail how one friend sent you a gag gift. As you open lock #4 you describe a Fender Guitar a friend sent you. As you open lock #5 you describe a very nice tie another friend gave you. Then finally you open lock number 6 and you describe a gift sent by your eldest daughter who lives far far away, a very nice box of chocolates.

Notice anything yet? The closet still has one lock on it, it can not be opened until the 7th Lock is taken off. BUT....What will you do when you open the 7th lock? Will you describe more gifts or will you "SILENTLY" just open the door? Like Jesus after he opens the 7th Seal, we would all just stay silent and open the door, except in Jesus' case there is nothing left to say, Judgment is now at hand. Thus this is why the 7th Seal is over in Rev. 8, Judgment only falls AFTER the 7th Seal is taken off. NOW....do you get what Rev. chapter 7 is ? Its the fleeing Jews who repent just before the coming DOTL. The Asteroid strike is the DOTL in Rev. 8 !! The verses in Rev. 7 tells us this.

Rev. 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. 4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

So, God sends the Angels and their orders are to HURT NOT the the Earth, the Seas nor the Trees until the 144,000 (all the Jews who repent or 3-5 million Jews as Zechariah 13:8-9 tells us) have been SEALED [by the holy spirit] and protected [ have made it to the Petra/Bozrah area of safety). Well, what HURTS the Earth, Sea and the Trees? The Rev. 8 Trumpet Judgments do, thus these are the Fleeing Jews who flee at the 1290 AoD (False Prophet) event 30 days BEFORE the Anti-Christ goes forth conquering, which happens on the DOTL (1260 event), thus God is ORDERING the Angels above to hold back the WINDS (Judgments) until the 144,000 (3-5 million Jews) are sealed and protected !! Now the 7th Seal being over in Rev. 8 makes PERFECT SENSE !! Thus, when the 7th Seal is opened, there is SILENCE in heaven because Judgment is now at hand !! There is nothing else to be said, Amen.

P.S. The Anti-Christ has Assyrian Blood, he is born in Greece and comes to power in the E.U. All three of these prophesies have to be fulfilled. Thus he's a Turk, burn in Greece who comes to power in the E.U. Of course Turkey, Iraq and some of Syria made up "old Assyria", but Turkey has a common border with Greece, so I am guessing he's a Turk using logic. If he's an Iraqi who was born in Greece so be it, its still Assyrian blood, but since Turks and Greece have a common border its 99 percent he's a Turk who was born in Greece. (Assyrian blood is a must see Isaiah ch. 10)

What I am teaching does not come from men but from the Holy Ghost, that is why there is no one else teaching or speaking of what I am talking of. If you were a wise Christian, you would test the Spirit in me to see if it is of God or not or at the very least be a Berrean about what I am teaching.... You are doing neither.

You are teaching that the Seals are already open in many cases, I have proven that the Church is in Heaven before the Seals are opened. When faced with scriptural facts you can't dodge those facts brother. That was the whole JUXTPOSITION POINT above. Dems DODGE FACTS, I was not calling you a Dem. And even if you were, that would not reflect on you as a person, its the Party that dodges the facts. I have to vote Republican, if I vote, but I despise most of them also. LOL.

God Bless

 

[David H.]

You are teaching that the Seals are already open in many cases, I have proven that the Church is in Heaven before the Seals are opened. When faced with scriptural facts you can't dodge those facts brother. That was the whole JUXTPOSITION POINT above. Dems DODGE FACTS, I was not calling you a Dem. And even if you were, that would not reflect on you as a person, its the Party that dodges the facts. I have to vote Republican, if I vote, but I despise most of them also. LOL.

Oye vey...

You have given your opinion not a fact.

What I believe is that the first five seals were opened at the ascension of Christ. The sixth and seventh have yet to opened neither is the scroll opened. The rapture is after the sixth seal, then the seventh seal is opened and the scroll is opened. Your view obviously does not agree with my view, so be it it is not worth discussing with you if you cannot allow me to have my view and instead want to shove your view down my throat.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Oye vey...

You have given your opinion not a fact.

What I believe is that the first five seals were opened at the ascension of Christ. The sixth and seventh have yet to opened neither is the scroll opened. The rapture is after the sixth seal, then the seventh seal is opened and the scroll is opened. Your view obviously does not agree with my view, so be it it is not worth discussing with you if you cannot allow me to have my view and instead want to shove your view down my throat.

I have thought that the first seal was broken and the white horse was the sending of the Holy Spirit. I guess it’s not a popular view.
I can even see that maybe the second one has been opened, considering all the men who have been killed in wars…but there’s never been a war which ALL the world has been involved in to my knowledge.

I don’t know, I sort of think if a seal has not affected the ENTIRE world at once, it has not yet been opened but has only been seen as shadows of what is to come.

I sure have noted that covid (wild animals) has been the first plague to affect ALL the world at once.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Oye vey...

You have given your opinion not a fact.

What I believe is that the first five seals were opened at the ascension of Christ. The sixth and seventh have yet to opened neither is the scroll opened. The rapture is after the sixth seal, then the seventh seal is opened and the scroll is opened. Your view obviously does not agree with my view, so be it it is not worth discussing with you if you cannot allow me to have my view and instead want to shove your view down my throat.

No, its a PROVEN FACT, the Church can be SEEN in Rev. 4:4 BEFORE Jess opens the Seals IN HEAVEN. This was my point, you dodge facts 2 + 2 x 10 is 40 not 47 that's a fact, just like Revelation 4:4 is a fact. God will ask us why we dodged facts to chose our on understandings.

A NOWHWRE MAN does not exist.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Huh…? :

 

[David H.]

I have thought that the first seal was broken and the white horse was the sending of the Holy Spirit. I guess it’s not a popular view.
I can even see that maybe the second one has been opened, considering all the men who have been killed in wars…but there’s never been a war which ALL the world has been involved in to my knowledge.

I don’t know, I sort of think if a seal has not affected the ENTIRE world at once, it has not yet been opened but has only been seen as shadows of what is to come.

I sure have noted that covid (wild animals) has been the first plague to affect ALL the world at once.

As i have said, those first five seals will be accelerated during the great tribulation (the wrath of Satan) and will be worldwide.

 

[David H.]

No, its a PROVEN FACT, the Church can be SEEN in Rev. 4:4 BEFORE Jess opens the Seals IN HEAVEN.

No one knows who the 24 Elders are. Some say they are the first fruits of the resurrection which resurrected with Christ at his resurrection which is why they are in heaven, which I agree with. (Matthew 27:52-53) My OPINION on this is that these were disciples of Christ who died before the crucifixion, who believed the Gospel of the Kingdom and the testimony of Jesus.

 

[David H.]

I have thought that the first seal was broken and the white horse was the sending of the Holy Spirit.

I see the first seal as the Nicolaitans/ false apostles the early church dealt with and has continued to deal with in the way of Popes and false teachers, The usurpers of the authority of Christ as the head of the church.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

As i have said, those first five seals will be accelerated during the great tribulation (the wrath of Satan) and will be worldwide.

Ah, yes, I see.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I see the first seal as the Nicolaitans/ false apostles the early church dealt with and has continued to deal with in the way of Popes and false teachers, The usurpers of the authority of Christ as the head of the church.

Ah, okay. I can see it. And they couldn’t be released until after Jesus died?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

That's all part of the fiery trial, and you are overcoming. Just Remember "HE is being glorified in His saints". The devil is in heaven accusing us that we have had the hedge of protection and God has removed that protection from some in the church that they may be a testimony for the blood of the Lamb. By our testimony, we overcome Satan and have him cast down to earth.

Absorb this message because the Devil hates it when we understand what is happening and show others how to overcome him.

I did, at some point, become aware, by what others were saying about what they were experiencing, that it wasn’t just me who was being…well, I guess I have to say…violently attacked or pressed down, and feeling extremely tired from it. But I just kind of assumed that’s how it’s always been, satan trying to wear us down.

 

[David H.]

I did, at some point, become aware, by what others were saying about what they were experiencing, that it wasn’t just me who was being…well, I guess I have to say…violently attacked or pressed down, and feeling extremely tired from it. But I just kind of assumed that’s how it’s always been, satan trying to wear us down.

for me there was always a a sense of being filled with the love of God even when others were pressing in on me, and drawing into doubt my faith. I Know and knew he was there with me carrying me. Do you experience this as well?

The final step in this trial is the feeling that even God has betrayed us, Like Job experienced. The question then is will our faith carry us to overcome. When this happens, you can see what Paul went through in prison and his writings about the people that abandoned him as a scourge because of his imprisonment etc. and his understanding of finishing the race.

Not all the faithful are chosen for this fiery trial, but we are told to rejoice when this comes upon us. (1 Peter 4:12-16)

This high calling of God in Christ is largely ignored in evangelical and protestant churches because they lost the distinction between the faithful and the saints, calling all believers saints.

How I see it in Revelation is that the faithful are the bride, the saints are the army of the rider on the white horse.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

for me there was always a a sense of being filled with the love of God even when others were pressing in on me, and drawing into doubt my faith. I Know and knew he was there with me carrying me. Do you experience this as well?

The final step in this trial is the feeling that even God has betrayed us, Like Job experienced. The question then is will our faith carry us to overcome. When this happens, you can see what Paul went through in prison and his writings about the people that abandoned him as a scourge because of his imprisonment etc. and his understanding of finishing the race.

Not all the faithful are chosen for this fiery trial, but we are told to rejoice when this comes upon us. (1 Peter 4:12-16)

This high calling of God in Christ is largely ignored in evangelical and protestant churches because they lost the distinction between the faithful and the saints, calling all believers saints.

How I see it in Revelation is that the faithful are the bride, the saints are the army of the rider on the white horse.

well, that first time that feeling of being abandoned came to me, I panicked. I was so distraught. I thought I must have done something to anger God. But after a few days, He put John of the Cross into my hands and I saw what I was experiencing was normal and expected. But after that, whenever it would happen, I didn’t panic, even though I didn’t like it.
So, no, He took His caresses from me that I had become accustomed to and I didn’t have a sense of His love. If I had, I wouldn’t have panicked.
But through His coming back to my senses and then retreating at times, then coming back, He was exercising me in my trust and putting my senses under my trust instead of the other way around. So now, through all those exercises, even when I am pressed to weariness, whether I can sense Him or not, I continue to trust. He was developing endurance of trust in me. Then after exercising me in trust that way for many years, one day He put my passions under me so they could no longer torment me and could no longer be stirred up to yank me around and control me.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Not all the faithful are chosen for this fiery trial, but we are told to rejoice when this comes upon us. (1 Peter 4:12-16)

I think I disagree…maybe…
I know I have read some old saints who say God does not call all of us to as much love on earth, but I wonder if that’s said to try and explain why there are so few saints. A fiery trial doesn’t necessarily mean martyrdom, does it? You can undergo a fiery trial of many years that’s mostly waged inside while outside there’s not much going on.

 

[Truth7t7]

for me there was always a a sense of being filled with the love of God even when others were pressing in on me, and drawing into doubt my faith. I Know and knew he was there with me carrying me. Do you experience this as well?

The final step in this trial is the feeling that even God has betrayed us, Like Job experienced. The question then is will our faith carry us to overcome. When this happens, you can see what Paul went through in prison and his writings about the people that abandoned him as a scourge because of his imprisonment etc. and his understanding of finishing the race.

Not all the faithful are chosen for this fiery trial, but we are told to rejoice when this comes upon us. (1 Peter 4:12-16)

This high calling of God in Christ is largely ignored in evangelical and protestant churches because they lost the distinction between the faithful and the saints, calling all believers saints.

How I see it in Revelation is that the faithful are the bride, the saints are the army of the rider on the white horse.

1 Corinthians 10:13KJV
13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

 

[David H.]

well, that first time that feeling of being abandoned came to me, I panicked. I was so distraught. I thought I must have done something to anger God. But after a few days, He put John of the Cross into my hands and I saw what I was experiencing was normal and expected. But after that, whenever it would happen, I didn’t panic, even though I didn’t like it.
So, no, He took His caresses from me that I had become accustomed to and I didn’t have a sense of His love. If I had, I wouldn’t have panicked.
But through His coming back to my senses and then retreating at times, then coming back, He was exercising me in my trust and putting my senses under my trust instead of the other way around. So now, through all those exercises, even when I am pressed to weariness, whether I can sense Him or not, I continue to trust. He was developing endurance of trust in me. Then after exercising me in trust that way for many years, one day He put my passions under me so they could no longer torment me and could no longer be stirred up to yank me around and control me.

What you are describing is the patient endurance of the saints. I think it is different for men and women in that men are more rational therefore they need their passions awakened, Women in general are more passionate need to have them them tamed... or at least so my experience has shown me?

I think I disagree…maybe…
I know I have read some old saints who say God does not call all of us to as much love on earth, but I wonder if that’s said to try and explain why there are so few saints. A fiery trial doesn’t necessarily mean martyrdom, does it? You can undergo a fiery trial of many years that’s mostly waged inside while outside there’s not much going on.

A fiery trial is there for us to give our testimony (the word in the Greek is martyria from which we get the word martyr from) What it is is a testimony of the efficacy of the blood of the lamb to help us overcome persecution and seduction from the Adversary. for example, those who do not take the mark of the beast will be a testimony of this and some will be killed while others will live without the ability to buy or sell and have a normal life. Both are giving their testimony (Martyria) though some are not called to make the saintly sacrifice. For example the Apostle John was not martyred, yet he is considered a saint, so martyrdom is not the soul basis for who is a saint.

If you read the passage in Luke 21:12-19 you will see this "testimony" being explained as pertaining to the Apostles and by extension the saints of the church.