Jesus prophesied that Sabbath would be kept by Christians until His return

[The Learner]

No, there are valid oral traditions, in BOTH testaments. There is no such thing as "oral law".

No, I did not. Your abuse of Mark 7:1-13 is a lie, not you as a person. Jesus did not condemn all tradition, just the made-up ones. The error is lumping them together.

Oral Tradition that is mentioned in 1 Cor 11:2; 2 Thess 3:14-15; 2 Thess 2:15, etc. does not refer to orally transmitting the message of the Bible. It refers to the Oral Tradition apart from the Written Tradition (the Bible); both flowing from the same divine wellspring.

The Oral Tradition has not been corrupted and we know this for three reasons:

1) Oral Tradition and Written Tradition compliment one another and not contradict each other. But not everything is written in the Bible, according to the Bible itself (i.e. John 21:25; Acts 20:35). Thus since not everything is in the written record if Oral Tradition says something that is not explicit in the Written Tradition that does not make the Oral Tradition wrong. It only means that that subject was not mentioned in the Written Record.

Oral Tradition was a long time aspect of the religious life of the Jews. They recognized the existence of Divine Oral Tradition. There are some passages in the New Testament, for example, that refer to the Divine Revelation of the Old Testament but deal with items not in the written Old Testament. It is obvious the Apostles knew and believed in a Divine Oral Tradition.

2) The importance of Oral Tradition is great. This is seen by the fact that St. Paul tells us to listen to and obey Tradition (that is Divine Tradition, not human customs) as Scripture. He even tells us that people who do not follow this Divine Oral Tradition are to be shunned (2 Thess 3:14).

All the possible teachings of Jesus cannot possible be placed into one book and the Bible itself affirms. Also, there were no New Testament Scriptures in the early decades of the Church. All that existed was the Oral Tradition of the Apostles. Even after the letters of the New Testament began to be written and passed around it was not until the 4th century that the Church put in place exactly which letters were to be considered Scripture and which were not. How the bishops made that decision was, in part, on whether the letter in question was consistent with the Oral Tradition handed down from the Apostles.

Oral Tradition ALWAYS precedes Written Tradition. Written Tradition (the bible) is a small subset of the larger Oral Tradition. This has always been the case - in the Old Testament and in the New Testament times.

3) I proper concern is whether or not this Divine Oral Tradition is passed on from generation to generation accurately. Well, God is not so cruel that He would not account for some way to preserve His Word. His Word, after all is life. We must have a way to preserve the Word of God. God did that through a Magisterium protected by the Holy Spirit. God has ALWAYS had a Magisterium. In the Old Testament times we had the Chair of Moses that Jesus mentions in Matt 23:2. For the New Covenant a new chair of authority was put into place --- just as was done with the previous four covenants in Old Testament times. This new chair was and is the Chair of Peter (Matt 16, Isa 22:21-23).

But how to we check to be sure, if we do not have the faith to trust God's Magisterium? Well, the same way that we can know for sure that the Bible we read today is the what was actually written in the First Century -- by comparing what we have today with the written record of history.

In the case of the Bible, we compare what we have today with extant manuscripts from as close to the first century as possible.

In the case of the Oral Tradition, the same is true. We look to extant manuscripts of sermons, essays, Church documents, etc. from the Church Fathers that affirm that what we believe today is the same things that they believed then.

There is NO doctrine of the Catholic Church that cannot be traced to the early Church. Over the centuries our understanding of doctrine has matured from that of the infant Church, but the doctrine remains unchanged. We know this because we can prove it with documentary evidence.

When Protestants posit a theological belief that is contrary to what the Catholics believe, I ask that person to show me where any of the Church Fathers believed has he believes. If the early Christians believed as the Protestants do today there would be some evidence of this -- essays, sermons, writings of some sort. But there are none. The Catholic Church, however, can produce truckloads of extant manuscripts from the First, Second, and Third Centuries that show the foundation for ALL that the Catholic Church believes.

This evidence is overwhelming and sure. There are no other works of antiquity that we are as sure about as we are about the teachings of the Catholic Church.

One of the rules of historical documentary evidence is that a manuscript that was written or copied 50 years after the actual event or after the original autograph is most likely to be more accurate than a copy made 500 years late.
Well the oldest extant manuscript we have of Plato was a copy made 900 years after Plato's death. In actuality we cannot possible know for sure if those writings are actually Plato's.

But with the New Testament writings we have extant copies only a few decades from the original autographs. This is POWERFUL evidence that the Bible we have today is indeed the accurate writings of the Apostles.

In similar manner, we have extant copies of the thinking and teachings of the Church Fathers that we can compare to prove that the Oral Tradition we teach today had its foundations and beginnings in the early Church.

If a person is to believe that the Platonic Dialogues are actually written by Plato, then one should have no problems believing that the Oral Tradition of the Church is intact for the evidence for the Church is nearly absolute, the evidence for Plato is essentially speculative.

The Oral Law -Talmud & Mishna

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

The Written Torah and the Oral Torah | My Jewish Learning

Formulation of the Oral Torah. Gemara and The Talmud. Texts on Jewish Law. Jewish Texts.

www.myjewishlearning.com

What about the Oral Torah?

During Shavuot we revisit the miracle of the giving of the Torah at Mount Sinai, but you might be surprised to know that Rabbinical Judaism believes that two Torahs were given to Moses at that time -- the written Torah and the oral Torah (in Kabbalistic traditions there is even a third or hidden...

www.hebrew4christians.com

https://bibleresources.americanbible.org/resource/oral-and-written-law

Deuteronomy 33:4 – Oral Law

Deuteronomy 33:4 – Oral Law Judaism affirms that God made use of two methods of communication in order to transmit the truths of Judaism from one generation to the next; the written text and…

judaismresources.net

 

[Illuminator]

The Oral Law -Talmud & Mishna

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

The Written Torah and the Oral Torah | My Jewish Learning

Formulation of the Oral Torah. Gemara and The Talmud. Texts on Jewish Law. Jewish Texts.

www.myjewishlearning.com

What about the Oral Torah?

During Shavuot we revisit the miracle of the giving of the Torah at Mount Sinai, but you might be surprised to know that Rabbinical Judaism believes that two Torahs were given to Moses at that time -- the written Torah and the oral Torah (in Kabbalistic traditions there is even a third or hidden...

www.hebrew4christians.com

https://bibleresources.americanbible.org/resource/oral-and-written-law

Deuteronomy 33:4 – Oral Law

Deuteronomy 33:4 – Oral Law Judaism affirms that God made use of two methods of communication in order to transmit the truths of Judaism from one generation to the next; the written text and…

judaismresources.net

Thank you for your kind correction that I humbly accept. To clarify, there is no oral law in Mark 7:1-13. "your tradition" is NOT an oral law, and it does not, and cannot mean "all tradition", a false tradition in itself.

 

[The Learner]

Thank you for your kind correction that I humbly accept. To clarify, there is no oral law in Mark 7:1-13. "your tradition" is NOT an oral law, and it does not, and cannot mean "all tradition", a false tradition in itself.

Corban only relates to sacrifices of animals to the Lord. Oral law is based on Leviticus 1.

"
The word Corban is only found in Mark 7:11. The interpretation is given in the same verse: “devoted to God as a gift.” The word described something to be offered to God or given to the sacred treasury in the temple. If something was “Corban,” it was dedicated and set apart for God’s use.

In the context of Mark 7:1-13, Jesus is speaking to the Pharisees about ritual without reality. The Pharisees had asked why the disciples did not wash their hands according to the ritualistic tradition of the elders (Mark 7:5). This hand-washing was not what we think of today with soap and water. It was not for cleanliness; rather, it was a prescribed ritual done as a show of piety.

In answer to the Pharisees’ question, Jesus told them that they had rejected the commandment of God in order to keep their own tradition (Mark 7:6-9). Jesus gives the proof of their corruption of the Law by citing their use of “Corban.” Moses had instructed God’s people to “honor their father and mother” (Exodus 20:12), but the Pharisees negated that command by teaching that they could give money to the temple in lieu of helping their parents in need. Whatever money might have been used to provide for aging parents could be dedicated to the temple treasury instead. Saying, “It is Corban” would exempt a person from his responsibility to his parents. In other words, the Pharisees took a legitimate Corban offering and used it in an illegitimate and devious way to defraud their parents (and enrich themselves). Thus, the Law of God was nullified.

Jesus tells the Pharisees that their misuse of Corban was an evil rationale to avoid doing what they should. God never intended that the good principle of devoting something to the temple should be twisted to dishonor fathers and mothers. Ritual without reality is what the Pharisaic religion was all about. It was also ritual without righteousness and without relationship. Jesus taught that, without a personal relationship with God, ritual profits nothing, and the traditions of man should never usurp the authority of God’s Word." What does Corban mean in Mark 7:11? | GotQuestions.org

"
Bible Dictionaries - Easton's Bible Dictionary - Corban
Corban [N] Corban, - Smith's Bible Dictionary Online
"a Hebrew word adopted into the Greek of the New Testament and left untranslated. It occurs only once ( Mark 7:11 ). It means a gift or offering consecrated to God. Anything over which this word was once pronounced was irrevocably dedicated to the temple. Land, however, so dedicated might be redeemed before the year of jubilee ( Leviticus 27:16-24 ). Our Lord condemns the Pharisees for their false doctrine, inasmuch as by their traditions they had destroyed the commandment which requires children to honour their father and mother, teaching them to find excuse from helping their parents by the device of pronouncing "Corban" over their goods, thus reserving them to their own selfish use." Corban Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary

 

[Johann]

The Oral Law -Talmud & Mishna

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

The Written Torah and the Oral Torah | My Jewish Learning

Formulation of the Oral Torah. Gemara and The Talmud. Texts on Jewish Law. Jewish Texts.

www.myjewishlearning.com

What about the Oral Torah?

During Shavuot we revisit the miracle of the giving of the Torah at Mount Sinai, but you might be surprised to know that Rabbinical Judaism believes that two Torahs were given to Moses at that time -- the written Torah and the oral Torah (in Kabbalistic traditions there is even a third or hidden...

www.hebrew4christians.com

https://bibleresources.americanbible.org/resource/oral-and-written-law

Deuteronomy 33:4 – Oral Law

Deuteronomy 33:4 – Oral Law Judaism affirms that God made use of two methods of communication in order to transmit the truths of Judaism from one generation to the next; the written text and…

judaismresources.net

Excellent Learner.

 

[Johann]

The Oral Law -Talmud & Mishna

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

The Written Torah and the Oral Torah | My Jewish Learning

Formulation of the Oral Torah. Gemara and The Talmud. Texts on Jewish Law. Jewish Texts.

www.myjewishlearning.com

What about the Oral Torah?

During Shavuot we revisit the miracle of the giving of the Torah at Mount Sinai, but you might be surprised to know that Rabbinical Judaism believes that two Torahs were given to Moses at that time -- the written Torah and the oral Torah (in Kabbalistic traditions there is even a third or hidden...

www.hebrew4christians.com

https://bibleresources.americanbible.org/resource/oral-and-written-law

Deuteronomy 33:4 – Oral Law

Deuteronomy 33:4 – Oral Law Judaism affirms that God made use of two methods of communication in order to transmit the truths of Judaism from one generation to the next; the written text and…

judaismresources.net

You just showed Illuminator that there was/is an Oral law, and I can go into detail as to what is is, and why, but you will be met with opposition, as you may witness for yourself.
Good work!
J.

 

[Johann]

Corban only relates to sacrifices of animals to the Lord. Oral law is based on Leviticus 1.

"
The word Corban is only found in Mark 7:11. The interpretation is given in the same verse: “devoted to God as a gift.” The word described something to be offered to God or given to the sacred treasury in the temple. If something was “Corban,” it was dedicated and set apart for God’s use.

In the context of Mark 7:1-13, Jesus is speaking to the Pharisees about ritual without reality. The Pharisees had asked why the disciples did not wash their hands according to the ritualistic tradition of the elders (Mark 7:5). This hand-washing was not what we think of today with soap and water. It was not for cleanliness; rather, it was a prescribed ritual done as a show of piety.

In answer to the Pharisees’ question, Jesus told them that they had rejected the commandment of God in order to keep their own tradition (Mark 7:6-9). Jesus gives the proof of their corruption of the Law by citing their use of “Corban.” Moses had instructed God’s people to “honor their father and mother” (Exodus 20:12), but the Pharisees negated that command by teaching that they could give money to the temple in lieu of helping their parents in need. Whatever money might have been used to provide for aging parents could be dedicated to the temple treasury instead. Saying, “It is Corban” would exempt a person from his responsibility to his parents. In other words, the Pharisees took a legitimate Corban offering and used it in an illegitimate and devious way to defraud their parents (and enrich themselves). Thus, the Law of God was nullified.

Jesus tells the Pharisees that their misuse of Corban was an evil rationale to avoid doing what they should. God never intended that the good principle of devoting something to the temple should be twisted to dishonor fathers and mothers. Ritual without reality is what the Pharisaic religion was all about. It was also ritual without righteousness and without relationship. Jesus taught that, without a personal relationship with God, ritual profits nothing, and the traditions of man should never usurp the authority of God’s Word." What does Corban mean in Mark 7:11? | GotQuestions.org

"
Bible Dictionaries - Easton's Bible Dictionary - Corban
Corban [N] Corban, - Smith's Bible Dictionary Online
"a Hebrew word adopted into the Greek of the New Testament and left untranslated. It occurs only once ( Mark 7:11 ). It means a gift or offering consecrated to God. Anything over which this word was once pronounced was irrevocably dedicated to the temple. Land, however, so dedicated might be redeemed before the year of jubilee ( Leviticus 27:16-24 ). Our Lord condemns the Pharisees for their false doctrine, inasmuch as by their traditions they had destroyed the commandment which requires children to honour their father and mother, teaching them to find excuse from helping their parents by the device of pronouncing "Corban" over their goods, thus reserving them to their own selfish use." Corban Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary

But they were not only destroying their character; they were also destroying the influence and authority of the very Word of God that they claimed to be defending. Note the tragic sequence:

teaching their doctrines as God’s Word (Mar_7:7);

laying aside God’s Word (Mar_7:8);

rejecting God’s Word (Mar_7:9);

finally, robbing God’s Word of its power (Mar_7:13).


People who revere man-made traditions above the Word of God eventually lose the power of God’s Word in their lives. No matter how devout they may appear, their hearts are far from God.

History reveals that the Jewish religious leaders came to honor their traditions far above the Word of God.

Rabbi Eleazer said, “He who expounds the Scriptures in opposition to the tradition has no share in the world to come.”

The Mishna, a collection of Jewish traditions in the Talmud, records, “It is a greater offense to teach anything contrary to the voice of the Rabbis than to contradict Scripture itself.”

But before we criticize our Jewish friends, perhaps we should examine what influence “the church fathers” are having in our own Christian churches. We also may be guilty of replacing God’s truth with man’s traditions.

The above from Warren brother.

What is so difficult to understand as to which traditions Jesus came against?
We even have our own traditions, man made, and need to be constantly on our guard.

Shalom
J.

 

[[email protected]]

I have not criticized Jesus' words, I criticized your false interpretation that DENIES why Jesus castigated the Jews inventing their own traditions in the first place. They were not honoring their parents and you haven't addressed that point once. And you refuse to understand the meaning of "your traditions" because "your traditions" has nothing to do with good traditions. Yes there are bad man made traditions that we are to avoid, and good traditions that Paul commands us to keep. Jesus kept Jewish traditions. Mark 7:1-13 does not condemn ALL traditions, and if it is used in the sense of condemning all traditions, then it is in itself, a false tradition. Fundamentalists, JW's, and SDA do the same thing with these verses when attacking a straw man fallacy.


Nonsense. Mark 7:1-13 has to do with Jesus condemning man made traditions; the ones they made up. That's what "your traditions" means, and you are arrogantly denying it.

More nonsense. Obviously you have a totally different definition of "Tradition" that is not biblical.

More straw man fallacies, followed by a childish insult.

You have a bad case of anti-Catholic psychosis. Your reference is a fabrication, borrowed from some cheap "Bible-Christian" hate site.
I searched high and low and the only sites having this on it are anti-Catholic sites. What the heck is "Barclay Cap" and "Cities Petrus Bertrandus"? I searched Google books and nothing comes up. I also searched the catholic encyclopedia and nothing came up. I searched with Google and nothing credible comes up. However, I found this:

Pope St. Pius V Claimed To Be God (Say Anti-Catholics)

Anti-Catholics have massively lied about a 1570 citation from Pope St. Pius V. They say he claimed to be God. The primary source proves otherwise.

www.patheos.com

You have to attack me with a viscous LIE because your false interpretation of Mark 7:1-13 has been exposed. You senselessly flail away with law, law, law because post # 273-274 has you stumped.
I'll wait right here for your next off-topic flaming zinger. (standard anti-Catholic methodology)

Most post-modern churches have a BIG problem with the LAW, mostly because they absolutely refuse to understand it - to learn about it - or to live it. Instead they define their own laws - their own interpretation of God's LAW. This is called tradition. (*) They end up dying because of it. (1 Samuel 4:21)

The problem with the post-modern church today is that it has severed itself from God in Christ as well as God's Holy LAW. In attempting to become relevant they've denied one of God's warnings:

You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. (James 4:4)

The attempt to make the gospel 'relevant' is a self-defeating effort because the world doesn't care about God's Word, God's LAW or God's redemption from SIN.

Indeed several major denominations have already made it official policy to deny the Bible as THE WORD OF GOD. Instead they denude it of power by proclaiming it to be equal to any other book written by the hand of man. They content themselves with this falsehood and then wonder why apathy has become a plague upon the post-modern church.

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO BE SAVED APART FROM THE LAW.

Most churches and nearly all synagogues exist by tradition alone. These traditions are inventions of humans, which attempt to justify their false religion by citing bits and pieces of God's Word. Religious slogans and religious buzz words become accepted among those who still attend our post-modern churches, but they don't mean anything to those who are outside the fellowship and outside Christ. Thus they pervert that which binds us to God - God's covenant, God's LAW. Thus even our post-modern churches pervert that which God has revealed regarding His LAW and our response to it.

The post you wrote is very angry - an anger that springs from a position that may rely upon a misunderstanding of the meaning and use of 'tradition' and 'LAW'. Again, I wish to clarify.

There are 2 laws.

One is generally referred to as the LAW of Grace because it was written by the hand of God and given to Moses.
One is generally referred to as the law of works because it was composed by the rabbinate during their captivity in Babylon.

All the gospels and all the epistles reveal a tension between the two. Jesus, as well as His apostles, spoke and wrote a lot about it.

Jew and gentile are both bound to God by certain behavior. One LAW reveals God's redemption by God's hand and no other. The other law binds its adherents to humanly invented tradition that does not save.

Thus a form of licentiousness has crept into our sermons, our books and our study programs. All deny God's promises and God's restrictions. All deny ANY attempt to study God's Word. In some places this licentiousness is called hyper-grace. It is not of God.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

Yet in the post-modern church we see many who believe God will approve of any filthy thing they choose to put their hand upon.

Paul wrote in Romans 2:12 "He who does not live by the LAW will die by the LAW."
Jesus said in Matthew 5:17 "I did not come to abolish the LAW. I came to fulfill it."

If Jesus did not abolish the LAW, then the LAW still stands - apart from the traditions of Jew or gentile.

All the gospels and all the epistles present a tension between the two laws, between God's LAW which leads to grace to be saved and that which was set down by the traditions and desires of man to please God (Adonai).

Inasmuch as the post-modern church has cut itself off from studying God's Word, speaking accurately of God's Word and promoting God's Word it has become anathema.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) GraceLESS post-modern church tradition has many examples of that which is NOT spiritually efficacious. One such tradition is the celebration of Christmas in all its commercialized forms. This end of year tradition has adopted traditional pagan icons; the Christmas tree, Santa Claus, the ritual of Saturnalia, decorating with greenery, the use of holly as a substitute for the blood of Christ, etc. Another perverse tradition is Easter, which has become an adaptation of the resurrection of Christ. The Easter bunny, feasting on candy and sunrise worship services that originally celebrated the Egyptian sun god Ra & the Greek god of the sun Helios are just a few examples. The observance of Halloween has become a festival of demon worship not only of secular society but of the traditions of the church.

 

[Jim B]

Most post-modern churches have a BIG problem with the LAW, mostly because they absolutely refuse to understand it - to learn about it - or to live it. Instead they define their own laws - their own interpretation of God's LAW. This is called tradition. (*) They end up dying because of it. (1 Samuel 4:21)

The problem with the post-modern church today is that it has severed itself from God in Christ as well as God's Holy LAW. In attempting to become relevant they've denied one of God's warnings:

You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. (James 4:4)

The attempt to make the gospel 'relevant' is a self-defeating effort because the world doesn't care about God's Word, God's LAW or God's redemption from SIN.

Indeed several major denominations have already made it official policy to deny the Bible as THE WORD OF GOD. Instead they denude it of power by proclaiming it to be equal to any other book written by the hand of man. They content themselves with this falsehood and then wonder why apathy has become a plague upon the post-modern church.

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO BE SAVED APART FROM THE LAW.

Most churches and nearly all synagogues exist by tradition alone. These traditions are inventions of humans, which attempt to justify their false religion by citing bits and pieces of God's Word. Religious slogans and religious buzz words become accepted among those who still attend our post-modern churches, but they don't mean anything to those who are outside the fellowship and outside Christ. Thus they pervert that which binds us to God - God's covenant, God's LAW. Thus even our post-modern churches pervert that which God has revealed regarding His LAW and our response to it.

The post you wrote is very angry - an anger that springs from a position that may rely upon a misunderstanding of the meaning and use of 'tradition' and 'LAW'. Again, I wish to clarify.

There are 2 laws.

One is generally referred to as the LAW of Grace because it was written by the hand of God and given to Moses.
One is generally referred to as the law of works because it was composed by the rabbinate during their captivity in Babylon.

All the gospels and all the epistles reveal a tension between the two. Jesus, as well as His apostles, spoke and wrote a lot about it.

Jew and gentile are both bound to God by certain behavior. One LAW reveals God's redemption by God's hand and no other. The other law binds its adherents to humanly invented tradition that does not save.

Thus a form of licentiousness has crept into our sermons, our books and our study programs. All deny God's promises and God's restrictions. All deny ANY attempt to study God's Word. In some places this licentiousness is called hyper-grace. It is not of God.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

Yet in the post-modern church we see many who believe God will approve of any filthy thing they choose to put their hand upon.

Paul wrote in Romans 2:12 "He who does not live by the LAW will die by the LAW."
Jesus said in Matthew 5:17 "I did not come to abolish the LAW. I came to fulfill it."

If Jesus did not abolish the LAW, then the LAW still stands - apart from the traditions of Jew or gentile.

All the gospels and all the epistles present a tension between the two laws, between God's LAW which leads to grace to be saved and that which was set down by the traditions and desires of man to please God (Adonai).

Inasmuch as the post-modern church has cut itself off from studying God's Word, speaking accurately of God's Word and promoting God's Word it has become anathema.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) GraceLESS post-modern church tradition has many examples of that which is NOT spiritually efficacious. One such tradition is the celebration of Christmas in all its commercialized forms. This end of year tradition has adopted traditional pagan icons; the Christmas tree, Santa Claus, the ritual of Saturnalia, decorating with greenery, the use of holly as a substitute for the blood of Christ, etc. Another perverse tradition is Easter, which has become an adaptation of the resurrection of Christ. The Easter bunny, feasting on candy and sunrise worship services that originally celebrated the Egyptian sun god Ra & the Greek god of the sun Helios are just a few examples. The observance of Halloween has become a festival of demon worship not only of secular society but of the traditions of the church.

Hollering from the choir loft is an apt description. While Christians are praising and worshiping God, you are screaming at them on high, as though you have that right.

Who are you condemn the church, the body of Christ? What allows you to write some things like these?

a) "The problem with the post-modern church today is that it has severed itself from God in Christ as well as God's Holy LAW. In attempting to become relevant they've denied one of God's warnings"

b) "Inasmuch as the post-modern church has cut itself off from studying God's Word, speaking accurately of God's Word and promoting God's Word it has become anathema."

c) "Thus a form of licentiousness has crept into our sermons, our books and our study programs. All deny God's promises and God's restrictions. All deny ANY attempt to study God's Word. In some places this licentiousness is called hyper-grace. It is not of God."

These are very serious charges, and you will certainly answer to God for judging the body of Christ!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Secondly, your argument in favor of the law and its applicability to Christians shows that your understanding of God's word and the New Covenant is seriously flawed.

Romans 7:4-6, "In the same way, my brothers and sisters, you have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we are enslaved in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the written code."

Repent of your intolerance and judgement of your brothers and sisters in Christ!

 

[Johann]

Hollering from the choir loft is an apt description. While Christians are praising and worshiping God, you are screaming at them on high, as though you have that right.

Who are you condemn the church, the body of Christ? What allows you to write some things like these?

a) "The problem with the post-modern church today is that it has severed itself from God in Christ as well as God's Holy LAW. In attempting to become relevant they've denied one of God's warnings"

b) "Inasmuch as the post-modern church has cut itself off from studying God's Word, speaking accurately of God's Word and promoting God's Word it has become anathema."

c) "Thus a form of licentiousness has crept into our sermons, our books and our study programs. All deny God's promises and God's restrictions. All deny ANY attempt to study God's Word. In some places this licentiousness is called hyper-grace. It is not of God."

These are very serious charges, and you will certainly answer to God for judging the body of Christ!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Secondly, your argument in favor of the law and its applicability to Christians shows that your understanding of God's word and the New Covenant is seriously flawed.

Romans 7:4-6, "In the same way, my brothers and sisters, you have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we are enslaved in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the written code."

Repent of your intolerance and judgement of your brothers and sisters in Christ!

We have died TO the law, the law did not die.....we are not lawless brother.

The law is not done away with yet we see: Christ, the end of the law.

 

[Jim B]

We have died TO the law, the law did not die.....we are not lawless brother.

The law is not done away with yet we see: Christ, the end of the law.

Of course the law has not died. Ask the Jews! And there are even some Christians that believe that they are still under the law. But as you said, Christ is the end of the law -- for Christians.

 

[Illuminator]

Most post-modern churches have a BIG problem with the LAW, mostly because they absolutely refuse to understand it - to learn about it - or to live it. Instead they define their own laws - their own interpretation of God's LAW. This is called tradition. (*) They end up dying because of it. (1 Samuel 4:21)

No, that has nothing to do with tradition, you have turned it into a dirty word.

Many Protestants (especially anti-Catholic ones) hold, by and large, the view that Scripture and sacred, apostolic tradition are somehow unalterably opposed to each other and, for all practical purposes, mutually exclusive. This is yet another example of a false dichotomy which Protestantism often (unfortunately) tends to create (e.g., faith vs. works, matter vs. spirit). The Bible, however, presupposes tradition as an entity prior to and larger than itself, from which it is derived, not as some sort of “dirty word.”

It is one thing to wrongly assert that Catholic tradition (the beliefs and dogmas which the Church claims to have preserved intact passed down from Christ and the apostles) is corrupt, excessive and unbiblical. It is quite another to think that the very concept of tradition is contrary to the outlook of the Bible and pure, essential Christianity. This is, broadly speaking, a popular and widespread variant of the distinctive Protestant viewpoint of sola Scriptura, or “Scripture Alone,” which was one of the rallying cries of the Protestant Revolt in the 16th century. It remains the supreme principle of authority, or “rule of faith” for evangelical Protestants today. Sola Scriptura by its very nature tends to pit tradition against the Bible.

First of all, one might also loosely define tradition as the authoritative and authentic Christian history of theological doctrines and devotional practices. Christianity, like Judaism before it, is fundamentally grounded in history: in the earth-shattering historical events in the life of Jesus Christ (the incarnation, miracles, crucifixion, resurrection, ascension, etc.). Eyewitnesses (Lk 1:1-2, Acts 1:1-3, 2 Pet 1:16-18) communicated these true stories to the first Christians, who in turn passed them on to other Christians (under the guidance of the Church’s authority) down through the ages. Therefore, Christian tradition, defined as authentic Church history, is unavoidable.

"Tradition" Isn't A Dirty Word

Explanation of the Catholic notion of apostolic, sacred tradition, which is always harmonious with Holy Scripture.

www.patheos.com

 

[Illuminator]

Has anyone noticed that big-mouthed made-in-America fringe groups are anti-trinitarian and anti-Protestant???

 

[Jim B]

Has anyone noticed that big-mouthed made-in-America fringe groups are anti-trinitarian and anti-Protestant???

WHAT???

 

[The Learner]

I need an update on the basic views in this thread, thanks Daniel Ouch shoulders.

 

[[email protected]]

No, that has nothing to do with tradition, you have turned it into a dirty word.

Many Protestants (especially anti-Catholic ones) hold, by and large, the view that Scripture and sacred, apostolic tradition are somehow unalterably opposed to each other and, for all practical purposes, mutually exclusive. This is yet another example of a false dichotomy which Protestantism often (unfortunately) tends to create (e.g., faith vs. works, matter vs. spirit). The Bible, however, presupposes tradition as an entity prior to and larger than itself, from which it is derived, not as some sort of “dirty word.”

It is one thing to wrongly assert that Catholic tradition (the beliefs and dogmas which the Church claims to have preserved intact passed down from Christ and the apostles) is corrupt, excessive and unbiblical. It is quite another to think that the very concept of tradition is contrary to the outlook of the Bible and pure, essential Christianity. This is, broadly speaking, a popular and widespread variant of the distinctive Protestant viewpoint of sola Scriptura, or “Scripture Alone,” which was one of the rallying cries of the Protestant Revolt in the 16th century. It remains the supreme principle of authority, or “rule of faith” for evangelical Protestants today. Sola Scriptura by its very nature tends to pit tradition against the Bible.

First of all, one might also loosely define tradition as the authoritative and authentic Christian history of theological doctrines and devotional practices. Christianity, like Judaism before it, is fundamentally grounded in history: in the earth-shattering historical events in the life of Jesus Christ (the incarnation, miracles, crucifixion, resurrection, ascension, etc.). Eyewitnesses (Lk 1:1-2, Acts 1:1-3, 2 Pet 1:16-18) communicated these true stories to the first Christians, who in turn passed them on to other Christians (under the guidance of the Church’s authority) down through the ages. Therefore, Christian tradition, defined as authentic Church history, is unavoidable.

"Tradition" Isn't A Dirty Word

Explanation of the Catholic notion of apostolic, sacred tradition, which is always harmonious with Holy Scripture.

www.patheos.com

Is 'tradition' a dirty word? It is when it is used as a substitute for God's will as revealed in His LAW.

When you write of tradition, specifically church tradition, as being an entity (it isn't) that is preexistent and derived from itself you write in terms of the ancient gnostics. Gnostics were attacked and treated as heretics by the early church. A philosophical and/or cultural exercise, which tradition is, cannot be alive nor can it have intelligent substance as you describe it. Your description is gnostic, neither Christian nor Jewish.

Tradition is an invention of man and is not as such preexistent to or of itself. Tradition is NOT an entity that can give birth to itself (as you describe it). I challenge you to prove it in terms of physical evodence as well as Biblical context, which you mention but do not quote. In almost every instance wherein tradition is mentioned in Holy Writ, tradition is considered to be of questionable efficacy.

Christianity isn't based upon either the Bible or Jesus Christ.

Christianity's founder was the Roman Emperor Constantine who licensed its operation and allowed it to hold real estate and levy religious taxes upon its adherents. Prior to Constantine's edict, those who worshipped Jesus Christ were part of an illegal operation. They were arrested imprisoned and executed as criminals.

Jesus Christ, the one mentioned in the Bible, IS A JEW born as King of the Jews. Jesus isn't a Christian nor is His kingdom a church kingdom. Those who give their allegiance to Him, who become saved, BECOME JEWS, not Catholics. (Romans 2:29) Church membership means nothing in terms of salvation because the church is not God. Indeed the Pope is not God either despite the Vatican's proclamation that he is God. In Biblical terms this is called blaspheme and is a SIN.

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in heaven and earth."
(Barclay Cap. XXVII, p. 218. Cities Petrus Bertrandus, Pius V.)

Protestants do not believe they are bound by apostolic tradition. That's what the Protestant reformation was all about. It was a control issue. Papist control of the thoughts and hearts and live of mankind was the issue. Vatican tradition was the issue. Five hundred years before the protestant reformation the Orthodox church split from Roman domination in what history calls The Great Schism. There is now no longer a binding 'apostolic tradition' upon all those who bend the knee and bow before Christ Jesus. There is no longer a 'universal church' as evidenced by history.

If God supported the Roman Catholic church neither the Great Schism nor the Protestant Reformation would have succeeded, but for a thousand years they have succeeded. Thus history is NOT on the side of the Vatican. Indeed scripture itself proves the RCC to be the anti-christ system prophesied by the prophet Daniel and the book of Revelation.

Unfortunately all of Christendom has fallen into the trap of tradition spoken of by Jesus and the apostles. Today Jews are accused of abandoning God so as to embrace their own religious traditions. In the same way most churches have forsaken Jesus Christ and the LAW of Moses. They have substituted empty religious tradition instead. So it is that these traditions are like filthy rags in the eyes of God because they are not of God.

The church today, protestant orthodox and RCC is ICHABOD (1 Samuel 4:21).

The really odd thing about the whole situation is that the church, all of it, is in decline and its leaders have no idea why.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[GRACE ambassador]

I need an update on the basic views in this thread, thanks Daniel Ouch shoulders.

Maybe these, but I could be mistaken?:

1) That "Jesus prophesied that Sabbath would be kept by Christians until His return"

2) the opposing "view"?

 

[Illuminator]

Is 'tradition' a dirty word? It is when it is used as a substitute for God's will as revealed in His LAW.

You prove my point. I don't waste my time arguing with a made-in-America cultist who is afraid of my posts. Especially Seventh Day Adventist or an offshoot thereof, who twist, lie and distort. Your nonsense has been debunked repeatedly, starting with the Council of Nicaea of 325 that you also reject. I have over 50 like-minded lunatics in my iggy bin. Anti-trinitarians like you are a bunch of trouble makers in every forum on the internet. Goodbye.

 

[Johann]

You prove my point. I don't waste my time arguing with a made-in-America cultist who is afraid of my posts. Especially Seventh Day Adventist or an offshoot thereof, who twist, lie and distort. Your nonsense has been debunked repeatedly, starting with the Council of Nicaea of 325 that you also reject. I have over 50 like-minded lunatics in my iggy bin. Anti-trinitarians like you are a bunch of trouble makers in every forum on the internet. Goodbye.

No love, no "much love"...no agreement, just cursing, cussing, name calling, defamation of character...

James 4:11-12 ESV
Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?

James 1:26 ESV
If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless.

Titus 3:1-15 ESV
Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people. For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, ...

Ephesians 4:29 ESV
Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.

Ephesians 4:31 ESV
Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.

Colossians 3:8 ESV
But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth.

Romans 12:19 ESV
Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

Luke 6:37 ESV
“Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;

Philippians 4:8 ESV / 144 helpful votes
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.

Proverbs 17:9 ESV / 125 helpful votes
Whoever covers an offense seeks love, but he who repeats a matter separates close friends.

Proverbs 11:12 ESV / 124 helpful votes
Whoever belittles his neighbor lacks sense, but a man of understanding remains silent.

1 Peter 2:1-25 ESV / 105 helpful votes
So put away all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander. Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation— if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is good. As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. ...

Ecclesiastes 7:21-22 ESV / 89 helpful votes
Do not take to heart all the things that people say, lest you hear your servant cursing you. Your heart knows that many times you yourself have cursed others.

James 3:13 ESV / 87 helpful votes
Who is wise and understanding among you? By his good conduct let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom.

1 John 2:1-29 ESV / 72 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: ...

Titus 3:2 ESV / 68 helpful votes
To speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people.

Which of the ten commandments have you [and me] broken?

 

[[email protected]]

You prove my point. I don't waste my time arguing with a made-in-America cultist who is afraid of my posts. Especially Seventh Day Adventist or an offshoot thereof, who twist, lie and distort. Your nonsense has been debunked repeatedly, starting with the Council of Nicaea of 325 that you also reject. I have over 50 like-minded lunatics in my iggy bin. Anti-trinitarians like you are a bunch of trouble makers in every forum on the internet. Goodbye.

Good....

bye

 

[Illuminator]

Hey Nancy thanks for the reply. In Matt 23 Jesus is speaking in the present tense. And upon His crucifixion the veil of the Temple was rent showing God's Glory was not there.

With the exception of Sabbatarianism, (that can't be found anywhere in the 2nd century), the OP is surprisingly similar to Catholic teaching:

V. THE LAST JUDGMENT

1038 The resurrection of all the dead, "of both the just and the unjust,"623 will precede the Last Judgment. This will be "the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man's] voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment."624 Then Christ will come "in his glory, and all the angels with him. . . . Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. . . . And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."625

1039 In the presence of Christ, who is Truth itself, the truth of each man's relationship with God will be laid bare.626 The Last Judgment will reveal even to its furthest consequences the good each person has done or failed to do during his earthly life:

All that the wicked do is recorded, and they do not know. When "our God comes, he does not keep silence.". . . he will turn towards those at his left hand: . . . "I placed my poor little ones on earth for you. I as their head was seated in heaven at the right hand of my Father - but on earth my members were suffering, my members on earth were in need. If you gave anything to my members, what you gave would reach their Head. Would that you had known that my little ones were in need when I placed them on earth for you and appointed them your stewards to bring your good works into my treasury. But you have placed nothing in their hands; therefore you have found nothing in my presence."627

1040 The Last Judgment will come when Christ returns in glory. Only the Father knows the day and the hour; only he determines the moment of its coming. Then through his Son Jesus Christ he will pronounce the final word on all history. We shall know the ultimate meaning of the whole work of creation and of the entire economy of salvation and understand the marvelous ways by which his Providence led everything towards its final end. The Last Judgment will reveal that God's justice triumphs over all the injustices committed by his creatures and that God's love is stronger than death.628

1041 The message of the Last Judgment calls men to conversion while God is still giving them "the acceptable time, . . . the day of salvation."629 It inspires a holy fear of God and commits them to the justice of the Kingdom of God. It proclaims the "blessed hope" of the Lord's return, when he will come "to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all who have believed."630

*VI. THE HOPE OF THE NEW HEAVEN AND THE NEW EARTH

1042 At the end of time, the Kingdom of God will come in its fullness. After the universal judgment, the righteous will reign for ever with Christ, glorified in body and soul. The universe itself will be renewed:

The Church . . . will receive her perfection only in the glory of heaven, when will come the time of the renewal of all things. At that time, together with the human race, the universe itself, which is so closely related to man and which attains its destiny through him, will be perfectly re-established in Christ.631

1043 Sacred Scripture calls this mysterious renewal, which will transform humanity and the world, "new heavens and a new earth."632 It will be the definitive realization of God's plan to bring under a single head "all things in [Christ], things in heaven and things on earth."633

1044 In this new universe, the heavenly Jerusalem, God will have his dwelling among men.634 "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away."635

1045 For man, this consummation will be the final realization of the unity of the human race, which God willed from creation and of which the pilgrim Church has been "in the nature of sacrament."636 Those who are united with Christ will form the community of the redeemed, "the holy city" of God, "the Bride, the wife of the Lamb."637 She will not be wounded any longer by sin, stains, self-love, that destroy or wound the earthly community.638 The beatific vision, in which God opens himself in an inexhaustible way to the elect, will be the ever-flowing well-spring of happiness, peace, and mutual communion.

1046 For the cosmos, Revelation affirms the profound common destiny of the material world and man:

For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God . . . in hope because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay. . . . We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.639

1047 The visible universe, then, is itself destined to be transformed, "so that the world itself, restored to its original state, facing no further obstacles, should be at the service of the just," sharing their glorification in the risen Jesus Christ.640

1048 "We know neither the moment of the consummation of the earth and of man, nor the way in which the universe will be transformed. The form of this world, distorted by sin, is passing away, and we are taught that God is preparing a new dwelling and a new earth in which righteousness dwells, in which happiness will fill and surpass all the desires of peace arising in the hearts of men."641

1049 "Far from diminishing our concern to develop this earth, the expectancy of a new earth should spur us on, for it is here that the body of a new human family grows, foreshadowing in some way the age which is to come. That is why, although we must be careful to distinguish earthly progress clearly from the increase of the kingdom of Christ, such progress is of vital concern to the kingdom of God, insofar as it can contribute to the better ordering of human society."642

1050 "When we have spread on earth the fruits of our nature and our enterprise . . . according to the command of the Lord and in his Spirit, we will find them once again, cleansed this time from the stain of sin, illuminated and transfigured, when Christ presents to his Father an eternal and universal kingdom."643 God will then be "all in all" in eternal life:644

True and subsistent life consists in this: the Father, through the Son and in the Holy Spirit, pouring out his heavenly gifts on all things without exception. Thanks to his mercy, we too, men that we are, have received the inalienable promise of eternal life.645

footnotes:
623 Acts 24:15.
624 Jn 5:28-29.
625 Mt 25:31,32,46.
626 Cf. Jn 12:49.
627 St. Augustine, Sermo 18, 4L 38,130-131; cf. Ps 50:3.
628 Cf. Song 8:6.
629 2 Cor 6:2.
630 Titus 2:13; 2 Thess 1:10.
631 LG 48; Cf. Acts 3:21; Eph 1:10; Col 1:20; 2 Pet 3:10-13.
632 2 Pet 3:13; Cf. Rev 21:1.
633 Eph 1:10.
634 Cf. Rev 21:5.
635 Rev 21:4.
636 Cf. LG 1.
637 Rev 21:2,9.
638 Cf. Rev 21:27.
639 Rom 8:19-23.
640 St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 5,32,1G 7/2,210.
641 GS 39 § 1.
642 GS 39 § 2.
643 GS 39 § 3.
644 1 Cor 5:28.
645 St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Catech. illum. 18,29 LG 33,1049.
646 Cf. Rev 22:21.
647 Isa 65:16.
context/source