Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Did you at least watch the JM video. It's a paradox, God's sovereignty and mans responsibility. It is beyond are ability to fully grasp. So we take sides ... have it your way. Both are true.
Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
It's only a paradox if God is not the creator of all that exists. That is, if God is the most real being, and transcendent above our reality, then his sovereignty is not paradoxical at all.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
It is above our capability to understand. Do you know how God does things, how His creative power works in the spiritual realm and how it is manifest in the physical realm? Doubt it!
Evidence if this paradox is the division that Calvinists have with Arminians. We're all Christians, baptized by the Holy Spirit, yet we have different perspectives leaning one way or the other.
Job 38
Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:
“Who is this who darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?
Nowprepare yourself like a man;
I will question you, and you shall answer Me.
“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
“Or who shut in the sea with doors,
When it burst forth and issued from the womb;
When I made the clouds its garment,
And thick darkness its swaddling band;
When I fixed My limit for it,
And set bars and doors;
When I said,
‘This far you may come, but no farther,
And here your proud waves must stop!’
“Have you commanded the morning since your days began,
And caused the dawn to know its place,
That it might take hold of the ends of the earth,
And the wicked be shaken out of it?
It takes on form like clay under a seal,
And stands out like a garment.
From the wicked their light is withheld,
And the upraised arm is broken.
“Have you entered the springs of the sea?
Or have you walked in search of the depths?
Have the gates of death been revealed to you?
Or have you seen the doors of the shadow of death?
Have you comprehended the breadth of the earth?
Tell Me, if you know all this.
“Where is the way to the dwelling of light?
And darkness, where is its place,
That you may take it to its territory,
That you may know the paths to its home?
Do you know it, because you were born then,
Or because the number of your days is great?
“Have you entered the treasury of snow,
Or have you seen the treasury of hail,
Which I have reserved for the time of trouble,
For the day of battle and war?
By what way is light diffused,
Or the east wind scattered over the earth?
“Who has divided a channel for the overflowing water,
Or a path for the thunderbolt,
To cause it to rain on a land where there is no one,
A wilderness in which there is no man;
To satisfy the desolate waste,
And cause to spring forth the growth of tender grass?
Has the rain a father?
Or who has begotten the drops of dew?
From whose womb comes the ice?
And the frost of heaven, who gives it birth?
The waters harden like stone,
And the surface of the deep is frozen.
“Can you bind the cluster of the Pleiades,
Or loose the belt of Orion?
Can you bring out Mazzaroth in its season?
Or can you guide the Great Bear with its cubs?
Do you know the ordinances of the heavens?
Can you set their dominion over the earth?
“Can you lift up your voice to the clouds,
That an abundance of water may cover you?
Can you send out lightnings, that they may go,
And say to you, ‘Here we are!’?
Who has put wisdom in [j]the mind?
Or who has given understanding to the heart?
Who can number the clouds by wisdom?
Or who can pour out the bottles of heaven,
When the dust hardens in clumps,
And the clods cling together?
“Can you hunt the prey for the lion,
Or satisfy the appetite of the young lions, When they crouch in their dens,
Or lurk in their lairs to lie in wait?
Who provides food for the raven,
When its young ones cry to God,
And wander about for lack of food?
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Because you can't understand them. Did you watch the video. MacArthur points out God's sovereignty in Romans 9, but then Romans 10, our responsibility.
So which one don't you believe in?
GOD'S Sovereignty or our responsibility?
I believe in both.
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Robert Dabney, who was a Calvinist, has this to say on the use of “kosmos” here:
“In Jno.iii.16, make ‘the world’ which Christ loved, to mean ‘the elect world’, and we reach the absurdity, that some of the elect may not believe, and perish…since Christ made expiation for every man” (Systematic Theology, p.525)
John Calvin also disagrees with you
“That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life.”
All that stuff is false. Nowhere does it say God loves the entire human race. Its plain as day God didnt love easu Rom 9 and He doesnt love the workers of iniquity Ps 5:5
While I don't think it's right to change the words from loved to chose, and hated to rejected, I do see that this passage teaches us about what love and hate are to God. Not the same variable emotions we experience, but something determinative to actions. God's love provides, and God's hate negates.
And when we consider our love for others, it should be like God's.
Much love!
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
@Saved by Grace
I don't need to know "How" God does things to know that God is the transcendent creator. He isn't one of us. He isn't a creature. He is like the author of a novel. Everything that happens in the novel, takes place as the author writes the story. You will say, we are not fictional characters. That's right. We are real. But God is MORE real. In fact he is the most real being. Everything that takes place in our reality, takes place when he speaks it into existence.
Neither Calvinists nor Arminians have taken God's transcendence into account. God's sovereignty and man's freedom of the will are paradoxical only if we are as real as God is. But since God is more real, then there is no paradox. Do we have free will? Yes. Is God sovereign? Yes. How can that be? God is more real that we, and as such, he is able to create a man making a freewill choice, just as an author creates a character in his novel making a freewill choice.
Expand your thinking.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
The doctrine itself is not wrong. But the philosophical underpinnings is in error. But putting Calvinism aside for the moment, remember, salvation is by grace. That is, the freewill of man doesn't enter into it. If salvation rested solely on the choices we made, none of us would be saved. If God suddenly decided to treat everyone fairly, then we would all get what we deserve: eternal damnation.
Paul argues that salvation does NOT depend on the man who wills or the man who runs. Meaning, it doesn't depend on our freewill choices or our actions. If God is saving me, then my salvation depends on a choice he made, not on a choice I made.
Consider Paul's conversion experience. He, himself, voices his regret that he persecuted the church and put some believers to death. One day Jesus knocks him off of his horse, blinds him, and tells him to visit a man called Ananias. Paul remained there for three days until he received baptism and then the scales fell from his eyes. This must have been an agonizing experience as he wondered what just happened and why. I can only speculate but if Paul's conversion was anything like mine, there came a moment when Paul understood. That moment, that flash of insight, that moment of resolve and enlightenment is hard to explain, but it is as real as the day he was born. One day Paul was a murderous persecutor of the church, the next day he dedicated his live to serving the person he persecuted. The ONLY explanation for this turnabout is the grace of God and a move of the Holy Spirit in the heart of Paul.
The same is true for us. The moment God begins to save us is the moment we turn from hating him to begin to serve him with all our heart, soul, mind and spirit. We can't explain it. One moment we hated God (or we were indifferent) and the next moment we were singing his praises and dedicating our lives to his service.
Once Paul was transformed inside, he began to realize that God had prepared him for his mission from the day of his birth. Galatians 1:14-16 In this way, he realized that God had been training him for his mission his entire life. In this manner, Paul can speak about himself in terms of being "foreknown" of God. And he says, those whom God foreknew, he predestined. That is, in retrospect, one can look back over his or her own life and see that God has prepared each and every believer for the future he has set before them. Those whom God foreknew, he predestined
"to become conformed to the image of His Son."
this is where the problem starts. in the passage that you quote from in Romans 9, it is not dealing with salvation, but God's choice of Jacob over Esau, for SERVING. The Reformed/Calvinists have forced the meaning by applying this to God saving Jacob and damning Esau!
reformed1689
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reformed1689
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Only because you incorrectly look at that one illustration in the passage and not the whole passage. Was God saving or damning Pharaoh? (Also in Romans 9)
we have been through this many times in BB! you still reject what the Bible says
this is ALL that Paul says about Pharaoh, show where it says salvation? God can have mercy on someone, or harden others, without any reference to salvation!
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "Even for this same purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will, He hardens.
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