It is not in the bible.....sola scripture

[Marymog]

Even so!
"Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Matt 5:3

The poor in spirit is not speaking of those without any or much of monetary value. It goes along rather with what Jesus said elsewhere:

"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." Matt 19:23-24

The "riches" which make it difficult to enter into the kingdom are not only material possessions [although those may be included], but people get rich in their own spirit because of their knowledge, even knowledge of the Bible. This was the problem that Saul/Paul had before he met Jesus on the road to Damascus. Paul was very rich in his own biblical knowledge. He had sat learning at the feet of Gamaliel a very highly respected jewish teacher at the time. For all of this Paul had nothing that any good because he did not know God until he met Jesus.

Hi amadeous,

When one reads that entire passage and puts it in context we see that Jesus was NOT talking about people getting rich in their own spirit because of their knowledge.

That ENTIRE passage (Matthew 19:16-30) talks about material possession. For example Jesus says sell your possessions, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven....” When the young man heard this word, he went away grieving, for he had many possessions.

Jesus then followed that statement up by saying, it will be hard for a rich person to enter the kingdom of heaven. He didn't say one word about being "rich in biblical knowledge".

Even Peter understood that Jesus meant material possessions when he responded by saying, “Look, we have left everything and followed you. What then will we have?”

Peter left everything. His family, his home, his material possessions to follow Jesus. At no time did anyone say anything about becoming rich in their spirit and knowledge. The ENTIRE passage was about material possessions.

IHS...Mary

 

[OzSpen]

G'day Oz,

Are you speaking of the Jewish writings (i.e. Torah) that Jesus and the Apostles would have quoted from or read (which eventually we Christians called the Old testament)?

Mary

I'm asking you.

 

[amadeus]

Hi amadeous,

When one reads that entire passage and puts it in context we see that Jesus was NOT talking about people getting rich in their own spirit because of their knowledge.

That ENTIRE passage (Matthew 19:16-30) talks about material possession. For example Jesus says sell your possessions, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven....” When the young man heard this word, he went away grieving, for he had many possessions.

Jesus then followed that statement up by saying, it will be hard for a rich person to enter the kingdom of heaven. He didn't say one word about being "rich in biblical knowledge".

Even Peter understood that Jesus meant material possessions when he responded by saying, “Look, we have left everything and followed you. What then will we have?”

Peter left everything. His family, his home, his material possessions to follow Jesus. At no time did anyone say anything about becoming rich in their spirit and knowledge. The ENTIRE passage was about material possessions.

IHS...Mary

You need to read deeper than the literal words. Certainly it was speaking of materials goods, because those were what interfered with that young rich man's entrance into the kingdom of heaven. It was also speaking of whatever it is/was that interfered with anyone's entrance into the kingdom of heaven. Not everyone has precisely the same besetting sins:

"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us," Heb 12:1

 

[OzSpen]

You need to read deeper than the literal words.

I find that to be a dangerous method of biblical interpretation because it allows you, me and millions of others choose whichever 'deeper' meaning there is to literal words.

That's what the postmodern reader-response promoters do. They want the reader to decide on the meaning and the intent of the original author goes out the window. I don't think you are suggesting that view, but your approach can't stop the reader-response people from doing their thing because it is the 'deeper meaning' for them.

Oz

 

[Marymog]

I'm asking you.

Hi Oz,

You asked the question of Kepha: Haven't you heard of the Old Testament that was available when James was writing?

Since I, Marymog, have not heard of the OT that was available to James and I want to expand my knowledge I am asking you:

Are you speaking of the Jewish writings (i.e. Torah) that Jesus and the Apostles would have quoted from or read (which eventually we Christians called the Old testament)?

You weren't asking me since this is the first time we have communicated about this subject. ;)

Respectfully...Mary

 

[Marymog]

You need to read deeper than the literal words. Certainly it was speaking of materials goods, because those were what interfered with that young rich man's entrance into the kingdom of heaven. It was also speaking of whatever it is/was that interfered with anyone's entrance into the kingdom of heaven. Not everyone has precisely the same besetting sins:

"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us," Heb 12:1

Hi Amadeus,

At no point in that passage does Jesus speak of anything other than material items.

If Jesus wanted to convey the message of people getting rich in their own spirit because of their knowledge He didn't do it in this passage. He was CLEARLY talking ONLY about material possessions.

I don't feel comfortable adding to passages or twisting them to say what I believe.

Is there a passage in scripture that supports your statement/theory?

IHS....Mary

 

[bbyrd009]

We know that "We all possess knowledge." But knowledge puffs up while love builds up.

 

[amadeus]

I find that to be a dangerous method of biblical interpretation because it allows you, me and millions of others choose whichever 'deeper' meaning there is to literal words.

Dangerous? Perhaps in one sense, but in another there is the problem of simply accepting only the literal meaning when another meaning exists, or the problem of following the meanings provided by any expert, or church group, or pastor, or minister, or evangelist without digging deeper. The digging is not speaking only or such alternatives or even of our own logical study of the scriptures yourself. The apostle Paul wrote:

"Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." I Cor 11:1

To be able to do that we would have to know how well he was following Christ.
The danger of following an appointed, even apparently anointed leader, blindly of course is found here:

"Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." Matt 15:14

So what is the solution for a simple believer who does not know all of the scriptures that well. Many of them will simply go the way of their presumed leaders, which usually would consist of the ministers in the place they attend church if they do. The ones who don't or won't do that are perhaps the ones for which you express concern, although the ones that do may also miss the mark.

God did not give above average IQs to all people. As a matter of fact those with above average IQs are more likely to miss out with God because they have such a gift than those of only average or below average basic intelligence. Man's logical brain does at times get in the way of understanding the Way of God. For this reason the correct Way to proceed is always by faith rather than by knowledge.

Even this discussion is making it too complicated as if God did not already know all of the best answers for each person in spite of what each person has in the way of raw materials [IQ, education, opportunity, etc.]

For the individual believer that I meet and when I am asked or impressed by God to do so, I will provide advice according to what I know or believe for that person. For one person my advice may at times differ from advice given to another.

No black and white rules that apply to everyone. Everyone needs to, in the way God prescribes for that person, strive to go the God's Way. If a person really seeks first the kingdom of God and His righteous [Matt 6:33], will God mislead him? I think not. Sometimes it may look like it to us, but how well are we able to see what is in everyone else's person's heart?

Did I properly address or answer your question?

 

[amadeus]

Hi Amadeus,

At no point in that passage does Jesus speak of anything other than material items.

If Jesus wanted to convey the message of people getting rich in their own spirit because of their knowledge He didn't do it in this passage. He was CLEARLY talking ONLY about material possessions.

I don't feel comfortable adding to passages or twisting them to say what I believe.

Is there a passage in scripture that supports your statement/theory?

IHS....Mary

I do understand your hesitation and do not suggest that you change a thing for me or for anyone else who presses you to do so. See Paul's advice:

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Phil 2:12

All the decisions are yours. I could perhaps write a whole lesson on your question using many scriptures, but that would not necessarily simplify your questions nor determine for you the best way to go.

The simplest verse that comes to mind is one I cited earlier in this thread:

"Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Matt 5:3. For me the poor in spirit opposes the rich in spirit, the former being our goal and the latter what needs to be avoided.

Upon reading that verse you are then left to wonder [if you do not already know] what is it that Jesus is saying to us? To me He is saying what I have already explained, but as I have said or inferred the decision remains with you. No one walks in your shoes, but you.

 

[Marymog]

I do understand your hesitation and do not suggest that you change a thing for me or for anyone else who presses you to do so. See Paul's advice:

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Phil 2:12

All the decisions are yours. I could perhaps write a whole lesson on your question using many scriptures, but that would not necessarily simplify your questions nor determine for you the best way to go.

The simplest verse that comes to mind is one I cited earlier in this thread:

"Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Matt 5:3. For me the poor in spirit opposes the rich in spirit, the former being our goal and the latter what needs to be avoided.

Upon reading that verse you are then left to wonder [if you do not already know] what is it that Jesus is saying to us? To me He is saying what I have already explained, but as I have said or inferred the decision remains with you. No one walks in your shoes, but you.

Dear sir,

Phil 2:12 and Hebrews 12:1 has NOTHING, ZILCH, NADA to do with Matthew 19 no matter how hard you twist it. In Matthew 19 Jesus is CLEARLY talking about material possessions and NOTHING ELSE. He doesn't infer it, pull his apostles off to the side later and explain what he meant or say ANYTHING that fits what you seem to believe. Your interpretation of this passage is made up and fanciful.

In Matthew 5:3 the "poor" that Jesus refers to is not the MATERIALLY poor. It CLEARLY says poor in SPIRIT, not poor in material items. At no point in Matthew 5 does he mention being poor in material items.

It doesn't matter what shoes I walk in. There is only The Truth and what you have written is NOT The Truth. Even by your own admittance you are left wondering what Jesus is saying to you. Dear sir, I am not left wondering. I know exactly what he said and it is not what you said.

IHS and defender of The Truth....Mary

 

[Marymog]

I find that to be a dangerous method of biblical interpretation because it allows you, me and millions of others choose whichever 'deeper' meaning there is to literal words.

Oz

Translation: Sola Scriptura:)

 

[Marymog]

We know that "We all possess knowledge." But knowledge puffs up while love builds up.

If I have knowledge of The Truth and I share it with you....am I puffed up?

Mary

 

[amadeus]

Dear sir,

Phil 2:12 and Hebrews 12:1 has NOTHING, ZILCH, NADA to do with Matthew 19 no matter how hard you twist it. In Matthew 19 Jesus is CLEARLY talking about material possessions and NOTHING ELSE. He doesn't infer it, pull his apostles off to the side later and explain what he meant or say ANYTHING that fits what you seem to believe. Your interpretation of this passage is made up and fanciful.

In Matthew 5:3 the "poor" that Jesus refers to is not the MATERIALLY poor. It CLEARLY says poor in SPIRIT, not poor in material items. At no point in Matthew 5 does he mention being poor in material items.

It doesn't matter what shoes I walk in. There is only The Truth and what you have written is NOT The Truth. Even by your own admittance you are left wondering what Jesus is saying to you. Dear sir, I am not left wondering. I know exactly what he said and it is not what you said.

IHS and defender of The Truth....Mary

Sorry I was only trying to help. No offense was intended.

Since you have it all, forget about the poor vision of even the Apostle Paul. Apparently you have moved beyond him already. He had a vision but it was still as though a glass darkly. I won't even ask what your vision is...

 

[Marymog]

I do understand your hesitation and do not suggest that you change a thing for me or for anyone else who presses you to do so. See Paul's advice:

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Phil 2:12

All the decisions are yours. I could perhaps write a whole lesson on your question using many scriptures, but that would not necessarily simplify your questions nor determine for you the best way to go.

Dear sir,

You have a bad habit of not putting scripture in context. When you read Philippians 2 IN FULL CONTEXT one can see that Paul also says we are to be of the same mind. This rule is given to us in other passages of scripture, not just here in Philippians.

So please tell me dear sir, how can all decisions be mine and mine alone if we are all to be of the same mind?? Is Paul confused or are you confused?? What you are preaching is opposite of scripture.

If you could write a whole lesson on my question then please do. I look forward to it.

IHS...Mary

 

[Marymog]

Sorry I was only trying to help. No offense was intended.

Since you have it all, forget about the poor vision of even the Apostle Paul. Apparently you have moved beyond him already. He had a vision but it was still as though a glass darkly. I won't even ask what your vision is...

Dear sir,

I am not the one who misquoted (took out of context) Paul. YOU DID.

Instead of defending your twisting of scripture you now throw out false accusations? Do not accuse me of moving beyond what Paul said or suggest I have a different vision of Paul. You twisted scripture, not me.

I know you didn't try do offend me. I believe you are probably a good man who only wants to help and voice your opinion. You remind me of my husband. He likes to give his opinion also, however an opinion is not The Truth .

IHS...Mary

 

[bbyrd009]

If I have knowledge of The Truth and I share it with you....am I puffed up?

Mary

that will entirely depend upon your perspective, i guess; if your perspective...is not aligned with absolute truth, then you are going to plainly reveal this in verbalizing your perspective. Or, i could post a perspective from a teenage girl without even needing to tell you that it came from a teenage girl, iow. She has revealed her perspective.

if you instead assume that you have no knowledge of the truth, you are then compelled to approach truth from a different perspective. Um lol or, when you stop knowing everything, you can start learning something. And this is a lot harder than it sounds ok, you have many, many premises that you have never questioned, and that you repeat as "truth" at some point, before you have dealt with that, right, so trust that until then your statements of "truth" will reflect your premises as well as the perspective derived from them; an even more profound consideration imo.

until you question everything you know, you are revealed, and after you question everything, your "knowledge of truth" will also be revealed, bc you will shy away from making statements of absolute truth--that after all cannot very arguably be made from Scripture; dunno if you followed that one or not

 

[amadeus]

Dear sir,

You have a bad habit of not putting scripture in context. When you read Philippians 2 IN FULL CONTEXT one can see that Paul also says we are to be of the same mind. This rule is given to us in other passages of scripture, not just here in Philippians.

So please tell me dear sir, how can all decisions be mine and mine alone if we are all to be of the same mind?? Is Paul confused or are you confused?? What you are preaching is opposite of scripture.

It is not all black and white even though you may believe so. They tried the black in white in the OT and found that it did not work as Peter made clear.

The same mind is the mind of Jesus who is the Head. The rest of us are to follow and obey the Head, but our functions are not the same. I don't preach or teach anything opposed to scripture. I do admit that at times our understanding is different. This could be due to less than good hearing.

If you could write a whole lesson on my question then please do. I look forward to it.

IHS...Mary

Apparently you don't like any of my posts, so for what purpose would I write a lesson for you?

"I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase." I Cor 3:6-7

 

[amadeus]

Dear sir,

I am not the one who misquoted (took out of context) Paul. YOU DID.

Instead of defending your twisting of scripture you now throw out false accusations? Do not accuse me of moving beyond what Paul said or suggest I have a different vision of Paul. You twisted scripture, not me.

I know you didn't try do offend me. I believe you are probably a good man who only wants to help and voice your opinion. You remind me of my husband. He likes to give his opinion also, however an opinion is not The Truth .

IHS...Mary

Pardon me as I was not speaking of your poor vision of Paul but rather of his poor vision of the things of God as he states in I Cor 13:12.
An opinion is the truth if it is true. God knows!

 

[bbyrd009]

It is not all black and white even though you may believe so. They tried the black in white in the OT

exactly.

 

[Marymog]

that will entirely depend upon your perspective, i guess; if your perspective...is not aligned with absolute truth, then you are going to plainly reveal this in verbalizing your perspective. Or, i could post a perspective from a teenage girl without even needing to tell you that it came from a teenage girl, iow. She has revealed her perspective.

if you instead assume that you have no knowledge of the truth, you are then compelled to approach truth from a different perspective. Um lol or, when you stop knowing everything, you can start learning something. And this is a lot harder than it sounds ok, you have many, many premises that you have never questioned, and that you repeat as "truth" at some point, before you have dealt with that, right, so trust that until then your statements of "truth" will reflect your premises as well as the perspective derived from them; an even more profound consideration imo.

until you question everything you know, you are revealed, and after you question everything, your "knowledge of truth" will also be revealed, bc you will shy away from making statements of absolute truth--that after all cannot very arguably be made from Scripture; dunno if you followed that one or not

Who decides absolute truth?