Is Total Victory over Sin Possible?

[Hobie]

We have many who say they can't or won't stop sinning even to when Jesus appears at the Second Coming. Are we able to overcome or not?

When the Bible says let "he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: ' does this mean we can stay full of iniquity

If we keep sinning will Christ make us sinless at the end when we are changed 'in the twinkling of an eye'? Is this verse referring only to our mortal bodies of flesh, or also our sinful lives?

What does the Bible teach. Lets take a look...

 

[Hobie]

We have this verse given to us....

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

And we have...

Genesis 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

And Christ Himself says....

Matthew 19:21
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

And then we have this...

John 17:22-24 King James Version (KJV)

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

So is sin too much for us to stop, what does scripture say..

1 Corinthians 10:13
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Christ is clear on what we must do..

John 8:11
She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

We find that Christ will cut off salvation at the close of probation to those who continue in sin before He comes.
Revelation 22:11
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Notice Christ declares "he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still" and right after it, that He "comes quickly" with every mans reward. And we do not want to be full of sin and fall into His righteous wrath when we face our God...

Hebrews 10:31
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[Behold]

What does the Bible teach. Lets take a look...

Reader,

Paul teaches that "our old man of sin is crucified with Christ" and we are to reckon our "sin nature" dead.
And that we dont live IN IT any longer, as how can we live in what is DEAD ??

So, when you find a "confessing sin" Christian, you find someone who has no knowledge of The Cross, and are unable to believe that they are "made righteous", based ONLY on The Cross.

This means that in their SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS, their carnal mindedness.... they BELIEVE that they have a list of "do's, and don't do's" that they believe if they keep perfectly and then they can keep from losing their salvation.,..(maybe)..
This is a diaper baby Christian, .. a Hebrews 6:1 bottle baby, who has yet to understand even the most basic comprehension of what it means to have become "The righteousness of God in Christ" as "made righteous".. as a "new Creation".. = "one with God".. "in Christ".

 

[Lambano]

We have this verse given to us....

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

And we have...

Genesis 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

And Christ Himself says....

Matthew 19:21
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Those are goals to be pursued.

Whether such goals can be achieved in this life...

No guarantees. But you can't just fight only when you know you'll win.

 

[Hobie]

Reader,

Paul teaches that "our old man of sin is crucified with Christ" and we are to reckon our "sin nature" dead.
And that we dont live IN IT any longer, as how can we live in what is DEAD ??

So, when you find a "confessing sin" Christian, you find someone who has no knowledge of The Cross, and are unable to believe that they are "made righteous", based ONLY on The Cross.

This means that in their SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS, their carnal mindedness.... they BELIEVE that they have a list of "do's, and don't do's" that they believe if they keep perfectly and then they can keep from losing their salvation.,..(maybe)..
This is a diaper baby Christian, .. a Hebrews 6:1 bottle baby, who has yet to understand even the most basic comprehension of what it means to have become "The righteousness of God in Christ" as "made righteous".. as a "new Creation".. = "one with God".. "in Christ".

So are you sanctified and made perfect "in Christ" even with actions such as Ravi Zacharias? This is the problem, many say they are a "new Creation" and yet continue the same as ever, no change, no turning from iniquity. Just a continuance of the dark and evil ways they had in their life and yet claiming to have become "The righteousness of God in Christ". At what point do they stop sinning, or do we see as many today a addiction they cant quit?

When do they get to the "go and sin no more" path in their "made righteous" declaration?

 

[Behold]

So are you sanctified and made perfect "in Christ"

Yes.
Every Christian is "made righteous"... because Salvation is "the Gift of Righteousness".

This is why Paul teaches that ... = "As Christ IS.........so are (the born again).. in THIS world".

We could not be "seated in heavenly places, in Christ" is we were not "made righteous" forever..

See, if you are not become "the righteousness of God in Christ" then you are not born again as a "new creation in Christ". yet.

 

[Earburner]

We have many who say they can't or won't stop sinning even to when Jesus appears at the Second Coming. Are we able to overcome or not?

When the Bible says let "he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: ' does this mean we can stay full of iniquity

If we keep sinning will Christ make us sinless at the end when we are changed 'in the twinkling of an eye'? Is this verse referring only to our mortal bodies of flesh, or also our sinful lives?

What does the Bible teach. Lets take a look...

Through faith in the shed blood of Christ for the full atonement/forgiveness of all our sins, we can know this:
1. We are made to be sin-LESS (perfect) in the eyes of the Father.
2. However, in the eyes of our own mortal flesh we are never sin-FREE.

If you don't think that item #2 is true, then you are calling Jesus a liar.
Mat. 5
[28] But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

1 Cor. 15:54-57
[57] But thanks be to God, which GIVETH us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
See also 1 John 5:11-13.

 

[Hobie]

Yes.
Every Christian is "made righteous"... because Salvation is "the Gift of Righteousness".

This is why Paul teaches that ... = "As Christ IS.........so are (the born again).. in THIS world".

We could not be "seated in heavenly places, in Christ" is we were not "made righteous" forever..

See, if you are not become "the righteousness of God in Christ" then you are not born again as a "new creation in Christ". yet.

Nice words and phrases my brother, but where does obedience come in, when does it convert to action that leads to a sanctified life?

 

[Hobie]

Through faith in the shed blood of Christ for the full atonement/forgiveness of all our sins, we can know this:
1. We are made to be sin-LESS (perfect) in the eyes of the Father.
2. However, in the eyes of our own mortal flesh we are never sin-FREE.

If you don't think that item #2 is true, then you are calling Jesus a liar.
Mat. 5
[28] But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

So do you think its alright to continue in your sin/lust? I see a problem with that and scripture lays it out.

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

 

[Earburner]

So do you think its alright to continue in your sin/lust? I see a problem with that and scripture lays it out.

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Because none of us who are "born from beneath" knows what it means to be sin-FREE (John 8:21-24), some cannot accept God's ability to make us to be sin-LESS.

In fact, it is so foreign to our natural mind of understanding, we are barely able to believe that being forgiven of all sin for all time is God's "Given" reality to usward through faith in Jesus. John 1:29, 36.

So then, if one does not fully believe that they are completely forgiven of all sins for all time, then by the same measure of faith, one will never believe what Jesus asks each of us to believe about Himself.
John 11[26] And whosoever believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Again, please see 1 John 5:11-13, and then ask how is it that YOU NOW HAVE Eternal life, when you don't believe that you are completely forgiven by the same measure of faith?

Do you not know that without God granting to us His full and utter forgiveness of all our sins, we CANNOT HAVE the Gift of Eternal life, which is in His Son?
Rom. 14
[22] Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
[23] And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Edit:
I would that you carefully examine the words of Jesus and His meaning in
Mark 2
[9] Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; OR
to say [to them], Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?

 

[Earburner]

Nice words and phrases my brother, but where does obedience come in, when does it convert to action that leads to a sanctified life?

Do you not know that we are to be obedient in faith, through faith?
Rom. 14:23 ....for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

But you can't just fight only when you know you'll win.

Wow, some folks need to learn mo bout the Word of God!

2 Corinthians 2:14
Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Galatians 5:16
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh

Mark 9:23
If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.


Problem is... most will not meditate / confess / act on what God's Word says

Do you not know that we are to be obedient in faith, through faith?
Rom. 14:23 ....for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

We should be living by the faith of Jesus Christ... that's where our faith came from and the faith Jesus walks in produces good fruit!

 

[Hobie]

Because none of us who are "born from beneath" knows what it means to be sin-FREE (John 8:21-24), some cannot accept God's ability to make us to be sin-LESS.

In fact, it is so foreign to our natural mind of understanding, we are barely able to believe that being forgiven of all sin for all time is God's "Given" reality to usward through faith in Jesus. John 1:29, 36.

So then, if one does not fully believe that they are completely forgiven of all sins for all time, then by the same measure of faith, one will never believe what Jesus asks each of us to believe about Himself.
John 11[26] And whosoever believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Again, please see 1 John 5:11-13, and then ask how is it that YOU NOW HAVE Eternal life, when you don't believe that you are completely forgiven by the same measure of faith?

Do you not know that without God granting to us His full and utter forgiveness of all our sins, we CANNOT HAVE the Gift of Eternal life, which is in His Son?
Rom. 14
[22] Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
[23] And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Edit:
I would that you carefully examine the words of Jesus and His meaning in
Mark 2
[9] Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; OR
to say [to them], Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?

Well, not so fast my brother, Christ tells us different...

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Matthew 19:21
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Luke 6:40
The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

Revelation 2:26
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Revelation 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 3:21
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Revelation 21:7
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

 

[Lambano]

Well, not so fast my brother, Christ tells us different...

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

That's an interesting mistranslation. In the Greek it reads, Ἔσεσθε οὖν ὑμεῖς τέλειοι". "Esesthe" is the future indicative of "to be", not the imperative case. It literally reads, "You WILL be perfect" (when you love your enemies like God does).

But not so fast...

The LXX versions of the 10 commandments are also written in the future indicative case. You see it in the English: "You WILL have no other gods before me". "You WILL not murder". "You SHALL not commit adultery". (The industry standards' bodies I'm on define "SHALL" as a keyword indicting that the statement is normative for compliance to the spec. I wonder if they intentionally chose to echo the KJV language of the 10 Commandments?) So, the KJV translators may have picked up on that echo when they translated Matthew 5:48 as an imperative.

 

[Earburner]

That's an interesting mistranslation. In the Greek it reads, Ἔσεσθε οὖν ὑμεῖς τέλειοι". "Esesthe" is the future indicative of "to be", not the imperative case. It literally reads, "You WILL be perfect" (when you love your enemies like God does).

But not so fast...

The LXX versions of the 10 commandments are also written in the future indicative case. You see it in the English: "You WILL have no other gods before me". "You WILL not murder". "You SHALL not commit adultery". (The industry standards' bodies I'm on define "SHALL" as a keyword indicting that the statement is normative for compliance to the spec. I wonder if they intentionally chose to echo the KJV language of the 10 Commandments?) So, the KJV translators may have picked up on that echo when they translated Matthew 5:48 as an imperative.

One must understand that of ourselves we have no perfection within us at all.
The only perfection that has come from God for our Atonement, is the Eternal Lord Jesus Christ, being Himself the
Perfect sacrificial "Lamb of God" for the forgiveness and removal of our sins.

Therefore, because Christ only is Perfect before the Father, His Perfection can only be applied to us by Him dwelling within us by His Holy Spirit. John 3:3-8; Rev. 3:20.

So then, the "perfection" of our being is not that which we shall perform by doing, but rather it is simply a new state of being, by literally becoming a "new creature [creation]" in Christ Jesus.
Through repentance towards God and faith in Jesus, the Holy Spirit of God takes up permanent residence within us, making us to be not only just flesh & blood, but now also of Holy Spirit, thus fulfilling the Promise of Christ in us. Rom. 8:8-9.
1 John 5:11-13 "....that ye may KNOW that YE HAVE eternal life...."

No one may have the Gift of eternal life, unless they were previously made to be "perfect" first, by the removal of their sin, and then shall they receive the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit of God.

 

[Hobie]

That's an interesting mistranslation. In the Greek it reads, Ἔσεσθε οὖν ὑμεῖς τέλειοι". "Esesthe" is the future indicative of "to be", not the imperative case. It literally reads, "You WILL be perfect" (when you love your enemies like God does).

But not so fast...

The LXX versions of the 10 commandments are also written in the future indicative case. You see it in the English: "You WILL have no other gods before me". "You WILL not murder". "You SHALL not commit adultery". (The industry standards' bodies I'm on define "SHALL" as a keyword indicting that the statement is normative for compliance to the spec. I wonder if they intentionally chose to echo the KJV language of the 10 Commandments?) So, the KJV translators may have picked up on that echo when they translated Matthew 5:48 as an imperative.

Well lets look a a bit more which I dont think can be a mere 'mistranslation'.
1 John 2:1-6
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

 

[Earburner]

Well lets look a a bit more which I dont think can be a mere 'mistranslation'.
1 John 2:1-6
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Did you know that being sin-LESS is not the same as being sin-FREE?
1. One is a state of being.
2. The other is the act of doing.

By which of the above enabled you to become a NEW creature [creation] in Christ Jesus?

 

[amadeus]

Those are goals to be pursued.

Whether such goals can be achieved in this life...

No guarantees. But you can't just fight only when you know you'll win.

So then if God is in us, why would it not be possible to be perfect?

 

[Lambano]

Well lets look a a bit more which I dont think can be a mere 'mistranslation'.
1 John 2:1-6
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

It has long been the understanding of Reformed/Protestant theology that Jesus toughened the requirements of Torah, such that lust in the heart is to God the same as physically committing adultery and hatred for another is to God the same as physically committing murder in the first degree, so that we would realize our total inability to be righteous before God and thus seek His grace.

You see the internal contradiction. John tells us immediately preceding the verses you cited ...

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

We are told we are unable be righteous, yet we are also exhorted to avoid sin NOW.

We are promised that "when He appears, we will be like Him" (1 John 3:2), which is why I emphasized the future tense of "You will be perfect". One of my theology books called it "partially-realized eschatology". Caught between the "now" and the "not yet".

 

[Lambano]

So then if God is in us, why would it not be possible to be perfect?

Brother Amadeus, that begs the question, "Why aren't we better than we really are?"

'Tis the season on the Liturgical Calendar to contemplate who I am and where I fall short.