Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?

[BreadOfLife]

Its clear you don't understand the difference between mediator and intercessor. They are not synonymous. So youre wrong out of the gate. There is no ministerial priesthood in the new covenant. The priesthood of believers and Jesus' high priesthood. Thats it.

Then you reject Scripture.

In James 5:14:15, he give the following prescription for healing the sick and forgiving their sins:
James 5:14-15
Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and THEY should pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord, and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be FORGIVEN.

Similarly, the practice of telling our sins to a priest is based directly in Scripture. Three times in the Gospels (Matt. 16:19, 18:18 and John 20:23), we read where Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins or to hold them bound. This is not something that Jesus took lightly. In John 20:21-23, Jesus (who is God) breathes on the Apostles as he is giving them this power:

(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU retain are retained."

The fact that Jesus breathed on the Apostles when entrusted them with this ministry is highly significant because he doesn’t do this anywhere else in the New Testament. In fact, there are only two times in ALL of Scripture where God breathes on man:

- The first is when he breathed life into Adam.
- The second is here in John’s Gospel when he is giving them the power to forgive or retain sins.

Paul makes no small case for this ministry of reconciliation in 2 Cor. 5:18-20:
“And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given US the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to US the message of reconciliation. So WE are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through US. WE implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”

In 2 Cor. 2:10, he states, “Whomever you forgive anything, so do I. For indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for you in the presence of Christ.”

In the Greek, the word “presence” in this phrase is Prosopone, which means Person. In the PERSON of Christ is a more correct translation. Paul was indicating that they were forgiving sins in the PERSON of Christ, which is translated into Latin as In Persona Christi.

You cannot understand the New Testament if you do not grasp the Old.
The New Testament is the FULFILLMENT of the Old Testament. Every type has a fulfillment . . .

 

[Nondenom40]

Then you reject Scripture.

In James 5:14:15, he give the following prescription for healing the sick and forgiving their sins:
James 5:14-15
Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and THEY should pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord, and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be FORGIVEN.

Similarly, the practice of telling our sins to a priest is based directly in Scripture. Three times in the Gospels (Matt. 16:19, 18:18 and John 20:23), we read where Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins or to hold them bound. This is not something that Jesus took lightly. In John 20:21-23, Jesus (who is God) breathes on the Apostles as he is giving them this power:

(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU retain are retained."

The fact that Jesus breathed on the Apostles when entrusted them with this ministry is highly significant because he doesn’t do this anywhere else in the New Testament. In fact, there are only two times in ALL of Scripture where God breathes on man:

- The first is when he breathed life into Adam.
- The second is here in John’s Gospel when he is giving them the power to forgive or retain sins.

Paul makes no small case for this ministry of reconciliation in 2 Cor. 5:18-20:
“And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given US the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to US the message of reconciliation. So WE are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through US. WE implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”

In 2 Cor. 2:10, he states, “Whomever you forgive anything, so do I. For indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for you in the presence of Christ.”

In the Greek, the word “presence” in this phrase is Prosopone, which means Person. In the PERSON of Christ is a more correct translation. Paul was indicating that they were forgiving sins in the PERSON of Christ, which is translated into Latin as In Persona Christi.

You cannot understand the New Testament if you do not grasp the Old.
The New Testament is the FULFILLMENT of the Old Testament. Every type has a fulfillment . . .

Presbuteros doesn't mean priest, if thats where you were going. Thats three words you clearly don't know.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Presbuteros doesn't mean priest, if thats where you were going. Thats three words you clearly don't know.

Time for a linguistics lesson . . .

Etymology of "Priest:
Old English preost, which probably was shortened from the older Germanic form represented by Old Saxon and Old High German prestar, Old Frisian prestere, all from Vulgar Latin prester "priest," from Late Latin presbyter "presbyter, elder," from Greek presbyteros "elder (of two), old, venerable," comparative of presbys "old" (see presby-).

Furthermore - Merriam-Webster's Thesaurus lists "Presbyter" and "Priest" as SYNONYMS.

 

[Giuliano]

Time for a linguistics lesson . . .

Etymology of "Priest:
Old English preost, which probably was shortened from the older Germanic form represented by Old Saxon and Old High German prestar, Old Frisian prestere, all from Vulgar Latin prester "priest," from Late Latin presbyter "presbyter, elder," from Greek presbyteros "elder (of two), old, venerable," comparative of presbys "old" (see presby-).

Furthermore - Merriam-Webster's Thesaurus lists "Presbyter" and "Priest" as SYNONYMS.

Finally a post I could understand! Wonderful.

 

[Nondenom40]

Time for a linguistics lesson . . .

Etymology of "Priest:
Old English preost, which probably was shortened from the older Germanic form represented by Old Saxon and Old High German prestar, Old Frisian prestere, all from Vulgar Latin prester "priest," from Late Latin presbyter "presbyter, elder," from Greek presbyteros "elder (of two), old, venerable," comparative of presbys "old" (see presby-).

Furthermore - Merriam-Webster's Thesaurus lists "Presbyter" and "Priest" as SYNONYMS.

I anticipated as much. You all must have the same playbook because regardless of whom i talk with, whenever i mention the greek or ask for a lexical definition you all run to websters. Why would you translate a 1st century greek word with a 21st century english dictionary? Especially in light of the fact you just got done say this;

In the Greek, the word “presence” in this phrase is Prosopone,

So it seems you know what a lexicon is when it suits you. When i mention the greek i get websters

Since you know how to look up greek words, find the greek word for presbuteros and show us where it mentions 'priest'. Your post was meant as a deflection nothing more.

 

[Nondenom40]

Finally a post I could understand! Wonderful.

And it was wrong. Sorry about that.

 

[Giuliano]

And it was wrong. Sorry about that.

It is? I found the same explanation at another secular site -- priest | Origin and meaning of priest by Online Etymology Dictionary

Old English preost, which probably was shortened from the older Germanic form represented by Old Saxon and Old High German prestar, Old Frisian prestere, all from Vulgar Latin *prester "priest," from Late Latin presbyter "presbyter, elder," from Greek presbyteros "elder (of two), old, venerable," comparative of presbys "old" (see presby-).

An alternative theory (to account for the -eo- of the Old English word) makes it cognate with Old High German priast, prest, from Vulgar Latin *prevost "one put over others," from Latin praepositus "person placed in charge," from past participle of praeponere (see provost). In Old Testament sense, a translation of Hebrew kohen, Greek hiereus, Latin sacerdos.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I anticipated as much. You all must have the same playbook because regardless of whom i talk with, whenever i mention the greek or ask for a lexical definition you all run to websters. Why would you translate a 1st century greek word with a 21st century english dictionary? Especially in light of the fact you just got done say this;

So it seems you know what a lexicon is when it suits you. When i mention the greek i get websters

Since you know how to look up greek words, find the greek word for presbuteros and show us where it mentions 'priest'. Your post was meant as a deflection nothing more.

Ummmmmm, because we're talking about etymology - not straight translation.
Etymology is the science of the development of words - not the translation from one language to another.

Nice try - but no cigar.
Presbyter and Priest are synonyms.

Let me put it another way . . .
In James 15, he differentiates between those who will pray over the sick person and those who will CALL upon them.

If there is "no difference" - WHY does he do that??

 

[Nondenom40]

It is? I found the same explanation at another secular site -- priest | Origin and meaning of priest by Online Etymology Dictionary

Old English preost, which probably was shortened from the older Germanic form represented by Old Saxon and Old High German prestar, Old Frisian prestere, all from Vulgar Latin *prester "priest," from Late Latin presbyter "presbyter, elder," from Greek presbyteros "elder (of two), old, venerable," comparative of presbys "old" (see presby-).

An alternative theory (to account for the -eo- of the Old English word) makes it cognate with Old High German priast, prest, from Vulgar Latin *prevost "one put over others," from Latin praepositus "person placed in charge," from past participle of praeponere (see provost). In Old Testament sense, a translation of Hebrew kohen, Greek hiereus, Latin sacerdos.

The new testament has a specific word for priest and its not presbuteros. Lexical definitions are what need to look at, not some dictionary thousands of years later. That is if we want the closest most accurate definition. And as students of the bible we do want to be as accurate and precise as we can right?

 

[BreadOfLife]

The new testament has a specific word for priest and its not presbuteros. Lexical definitions are what need to look at, not some dictionary thousands of years later. That is if we want the closest most accurate definition. And as students of the bible we do want to be as accurate and precise as we can right?

Care to tell us what that NT word for "priest" is??

 

[BreadOfLife]

The new testament has a specific word for priest and its not presbuteros. Lexical definitions are what need to look at, not some dictionary thousands of years later. That is if we want the closest most accurate definition. And as students of the bible we do want to be as accurate and precise as we can right?

The Greek word for a Jewish priest of the temple is hiereús.
HOWEVER - according to Strong's Greek Lexicon - it has a specific meaning that doesn't apply to the Christian Priesthood because it refers to the Temple.

From Strong's: 2409 hiereús (from 2413 /hierós, "sacred because belonging to the Temple")

 

[Nondenom40]

Ummmmmm, because we're talking about etymology - not straight translation.
Etymology is the science of the development of words - not the translation from one language to another.

And who made that determination? Not me. The n.t. has a word for priest, its not presbuteros. There is a word for elder, overseer and they aren't priest. Thats your issue not mine.

Nice try - but no cigar.
Presbyter and Priest are synonyms.

Let me put it another way . . .
In James 15, he differentiates between those who will pray over the sick person and those who will CALL upon them.

If there is "no difference" - WHY does he do that??

Paul uses episkopos and presbuteros interchangeably. Show us where he or anyone else uses priest interchangeably with elder or overseer. Your claim, you prove it.

 

[Yehren]

I anticipated as much. You all must have the same playbook because regardless of whom i talk with, whenever i mention the greek or ask for a lexical definition you all run to websters. Why would you translate a 1st century greek word with a 21st century english dictionary?
From an etymological dictionary:
priest (n.)

https://www.etymonline.com/word/priest#etymonline_v_19497

Old English preost, which probably was shortened from the older Germanic form represented by Old Saxon and Old High German prestar, Old Frisian prestere, all from Vulgar Latin *prester "priest," from Late Latin presbyter "presbyter, elder," from Greek presbyteros "elder (of two), old, venerable," comparative of presbys "old" (see presby-).


An alternative theory (to account for the -eo- of the Old English word) makes it cognate with Old High German priast, prest, from Vulgar Latin *prevost "one put over others," from Latin praepositus "person placed in charge," from past participle of praeponere (see provost). In Old Testament sense, a translation of Hebrew kohen, Greek hiereus, Latin sacerdos.
priest | Search Online Etymology Dictionary

No point in denying the fact.

 

[Nondenom40]

The Greek word for a Jewish priest of the temple is hiereús.
HOWEVER - according to Strong's Greek Lexicon - it has a specific meaning that doesn't apply to the Christian Priesthood because it refers to the Temple.

From Strong's: 2409 hiereús (from 2413 /hierós, "sacred because belonging to the Temple")

We are a royal priesthood; 1 Peter 2:9. A holy priesthood 1 Peter 2:5 to offer spiritual sacrifices. We offer our bodies as a living sacrifice; Romans 12:1. And Romans 15:16 has nothing to do with the temple, or a sacerdotal priesthood.

 

[Nondenom40]

Old English preost, which probably was shortened from the older Germanic form represented by Old Saxon and Old High German prestar, Old Frisian prestere, all from Vulgar Latin *prester "priest," from Late Latin presbyter "presbyter, elder," from Greek presbyteros "elder (of two), old, venerable," comparative of presbys "old" (see presby-).


An alternative theory (to account for the -eo- of the Old English word) makes it cognate with Old High German priast, prest, from Vulgar Latin *prevost "one put over others," from Latin praepositus "person placed in charge," from past participle of praeponere (see provost). In Old Testament sense, a translation of Hebrew kohen, Greek hiereus, Latin sacerdos.
priest | Search Online Etymology Dictionary

No point in denying the fact.

Yada yada yada. If anyone decided to pick up a lexicon you would see something different. But alas, no one on romes side of the tiber seems too interested in that. Muddy the waters <~~~~~ old roman catholic saying.

 

[Philip James]

We are a royal priesthood; 1 Peter 2:9. A holy priesthood 1 Peter 2:5 to offer spiritual sacrifices. We offer our bodies as a living sacrifice; Romans 12:1. And Romans 15:16 has nothing to do with the temple, or a sacerdotal priesthood.

We, all of us, are priests! Who are Francis and Richard that they should rule over me ?

 

[Yehren]

Yada yada yada.

It's just where the term came from. I suppose it was kind of a shock to learn about it, but there it is. Really no point in denial, is there?

If anyone decided to pick up a lexicon you would see something different.

Etemologists are the authorities on words. Again, no point in denying it.

This history gives superficial plausibility to the claim sometimes heard that the Roman Catholic Church hijacked the English term "priest," using a word that simply meant "elder" to refer to a performer of sacred (sacrificial) rites. But when "préost" entered the English language via Latin it did so as a specific term for Christian clergy with the connotations the term would have had within the Latin speaking church. The English word "priest" never meant "elder" (presbyter, senior figure) in a general sense. Put differently, "préost" is not a loanword from Greek πρεσβύτερος but from Latin presbyter via prester and the Latin presbyter never corresponded exactly to the Greek πρεσβύτερος from which it derived.


The role of Christian clergy had long been understood within the church as in some ways analogous to the Levitical priesthood. (The priesthood of all believers in 1 Peter 2:9 was not seen as an hindrance to such a narrower usage, just as traditionally the priesthood of all Israel in Exodus 19:6 was not seen as a hindrance to the establishment of the Levitical priesthood.) So it is maybe not surprising that the Latin sacerdos and the Anglo-Saxon "sacerd" also came to be employed for ordained Christian clergy. See the relevant entry in An Anglo-Saxon Dictionary: Based on the Manuscript Collections of the Late Joseph Bosworth (ed. Thomas Northcote Toller; Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1898) which makes the point in reverse by stating that "the term is not confined to the Christian priesthood."http://bosworth.ff.cuni.cz/026120
The Hadley Rectory: The Etymology of English "Priest"

 

[BreadOfLife]

We are a royal priesthood; 1 Peter 2:9. A holy priesthood 1 Peter 2:5 to offer spiritual sacrifices. We offer our bodies as a living sacrifice; Romans 12:1. And Romans 15:16 has nothing to do with the temple, or a sacerdotal priesthood.

And who made that determination? Not me. The n.t. has a word for priest, its not presbuteros. There is a word for elder, overseer and they aren't priest. Thats your issue not mine.

Paul uses episkopos and presbuteros interchangeably. Show us where he or anyone else uses priest interchangeably with elder or overseer. Your claim, you prove it.

Soooooo because you DON'T know that Etymology is the science of the development of words - not the translation from one language to another - that makes you right??
That's an asinine argument. Etymology is what it is whether YOU approve or not.

You think that because there is one word used for a certain kind of priest - that their can't be another?? You never heard of SYNONYMS??
A synonym is a word that is spelled completely differently from another word but means the SAME thing.
Time for another linguistics lesson:
List of synonyms:
Anger - fury - animosity
Incredible - astounding - amazing
Ugly - unattractive - hideous
Pretty - beautiful - ravishing - lovely

You need to understand how languages work before you go around arguing about them . . .


As for Episkopos - that is a higher position than Presbuteros. We see this in Acts 1:20, when the Apostles were choosing a replacement for Judas. "Let another take his office."

The Greek word used here for "office" is "Episkopay", which means "BISHOPRIC".
If Judas was simply a "Presbuteros" - there wouldn't have been ANY reason for a vote. they would have simply appointed another person to take over.
EVERY Bishop (Episkopos) is still a Priest (Presbyter) - but NOT ever Priest is a Bishop.

Finally - you STILL haven't answered my earlier question.
If we are ALL ministerial priests - then WHY did James differentiate between those who will pray over the sick person and those who will CALL upon them.

If there is "no difference" - WHY does he do that??

 

[Nondenom40]

It's just where the term came from. I suppose it was kind of a shock to learn about it, but there it is. Really no point in denial, is there?

What term?

Etemologists are the authorities on words. Again, no point in denying it.

This history gives superficial plausibility to the claim sometimes heard that the Roman Catholic Church hijacked the English term "priest," using a word that simply meant "elder" to refer to a performer of sacred (sacrificial) rites. But when "préost" entered the English language via Latin it did so as a specific term for Christian clergy with the connotations the term would have had within the Latin speaking church. The English word "priest" never meant "elder" (presbyter, senior figure) in a general sense. Put differently, "préost" is not a loanword from Greek πρεσβύτερος but from Latin presbyter via prester and the Latin presbyter never corresponded exactly to the Greek πρεσβύτερος from which it derived.


The role of Christian clergy had long been understood within the church as in some ways analogous to the Levitical priesthood. (The priesthood of all believers in 1 Peter 2:9 was not seen as an hindrance to such a narrower usage, just as traditionally the priesthood of all Israel in Exodus 19:6 was not seen as a hindrance to the establishment of the Levitical priesthood.) So it is maybe not surprising that the Latin sacerdos and the Anglo-Saxon "sacerd" also came to be employed for ordained Christian clergy. See the relevant entry in An Anglo-Saxon Dictionary: Based on the Manuscript Collections of the Late Joseph Bosworth (ed. Thomas Northcote Toller; Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1898) which makes the point in reverse by stating that "the term is not confined to the Christian priesthood."
The Hadley Rectory: The Etymology of English "Priest"

Wrong. Greek grammarians are the authority on n.t. koine greek. When we talk about the greek n.t. we need to use first century greek lexicons. Who cares what the word became thousands of years later? You all have this completely backwards.

 

[Nondenom40]

Soooooo because you DON'T know that Etymology is the science of the development of words - not the translation from one language to another - that makes you right??
That's an asinine argument. Etymology is what it is whether YOU approve or not.

You think that because there is one word used for a certain kind of priest - that their can't be another?? You never heard of SYNONYMS??
A synonym is a word that is spelled completely differently from another word but means the SAME thing.
Time for another linguistics lesson:
List of synonyms:
Anger - fury - animosity
Incredible - astounding - amazing
Ugly - unattractive - hideous
Pretty - beautiful - ravishing - lovely

You need to understand how languages work before you go around arguing about them . . .


As for Episkopos - that is a higher position than Presbuteros. We see this in Acts 1:20, when the Apostles were choosing a replacement for Judas. "Let another take his office."

The Greek word used here for "office" is "Episkopay", which means "BISHOPRIC".
If Judas was simply a "Presbuteros" - there wouldn't have been ANY reason for a vote. they would have simply appointed another person to take over.
EVERY Bishop (Episkopos) is still a Priest (Presbyter) - but NOT ever Priest is a Bishop.

Finally - you STILL haven't answered my earlier question.
If we are ALL ministerial priests - then WHY did James differentiate between those who will pray over the sick person and those who will CALL upon them.

If there is "no difference" - WHY does he do that??

Youre still deflecting. New testament koine greek is what is being discussed. Not what words became later. The n.t. greek word for priest isn't presbuteros or episkopos. Seems like a fact you just don't want to deal with. Thats your problem not mine.