Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?

[illini1959]

How did you arrive at this conclusion? See what the Catechism of the Catholic Church has to say.

That's what I mean. You go to your catechism.

Show me in scripture where the eucharist saves anyone, or keeps anyone saved.

 

[illini1959]

Hello illini,
I'm curious, have you examined what we teach, believe and live, and rejected it? Or are you just taking someone elses assertions about what we believe to make that accusation?

What 'other way' to God do you think we preach?

Peace be with you!

Christ IS risen!
Alleluia!

Hi Philip - I'm pretty active on another roman catholic forum and the things they post - and believe - astound me.

So, I am taking someone else's assertions, but they are catholic.

Most of the doctrine taught by this church just aren't scriptural. Most all of the Marian doctrine isn't anywhere in the bible. At all.

Catholics believe they must work to retain their salvation or even help Christ attain it.

Scripture is always taken out of context. Jesus' parables, for one example. Many times He's referring to unsaved people, yet the catholics on this forum argue that Jesus is "warning" His own disciples that they'll be cut off and cast away. Scripture just doesn't support that. God tells us over and over that salvation is a free gift, we're sealed by the Holy Spirit - that nothing can snatch us out of His hand. Yet catholics (and other sects) don't believe this.

Baptism doesn't save; Christ's blood is what redeems us and was the perfect sacrifice for our sin. There's no purgatory; you can't pray to saints, etc., etc.

The Apostles didn't teach any of the above and the New Testament church is nothing like the RCC.

Comparing the teachings of that church to scripture adds up to false doctrine.

While all of this likely comes across poorly in writing, I don't say any of this with malice or in an ugly way. We're supposed to defend the faith and call out false doctrine. I can post scripture to support any of the things I've mentioned if need be.

God bless!

 

[BreadOfLife]

So do you accept Protestants as being part of the universal church?

Protestants are related to the Church - but are self-separated from it.

 

[BreadOfLife]

"Through the Church means "through the Catholic Church" since the Bible does not say that anyone is saved "through the Church" (the Body of Christ). This is a distinctly Catholic teaching, and includes Mary's role as Mother of the Church and Mediatrix (see below).

Therefore this statement contradicts the above. I won't resort to calling BOL a liar (since he is presenting the RCC position), but you just contradicted yourself. So everyone can draw their own conclusions.

CATECHISM
816
The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."

968
Her [Mary's] role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."

969
"This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."

Once again, you have failed in your attempt to show dishonesty in my posts.

You show PART of the Catholic position – but you left out a vital part the teaching of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus (Outside the Church There is No Salvation). There was NO contradiction in what I said because everything I said is true:

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."

Next time – don’t cherry-pick.
It only we your ignorance . . .

 

[Enoch111]

This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

This applies to the unsaved. IRRELEVANT

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

This applies to the unsaved. IRRELEVANT

"Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."

This applies to the unsaved. IRRELEVANT

We are talking about those who are saved (outside the CC). They are *unsaved* according to your church because (a) they are outside the Catholic Church which is the so-called *means of salvation* and (b) they do not believe that anyone is saved "through the Church" (the genuine Body of Christ) and (c) they do not believe that Mary is the Mother of the Church or the Mediatrix in Heaven. Your church has pronounced an *anathema* on these Christians.

 

[Truth]

Hi ~ I'm not sure what your question is, I'm sorry!

Do you mean 1 Corinthians 3:4-7?

4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not mere men? 5 What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. 7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth.

If so, there were people in Corinth who were bragging that they followed Apollos or Paul, and Paul is saying hey we're just servants! God causes the growth....Paul always pointed people back to God.

If you mean something else, let me know.

If it helps, my point is that the gospel is pretty much summed up in John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. <--- this is the good new of Jesus Christ

There's nothing we, as humans, can do to earn it, add to it, keep it, etc., it's a free gift from God - totally undeserved.

The Catholic Church teaches one must do works to keep it; do works to (somehow) assist Christ in getting it....that along with the Marian doctrine, etc., is a different gospel and we're warned about that, for example - But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:8

If that's not what you wanted me to address please let me know, I'll be happy to clarify whatever....

The verses in Corinthians today could read, I am of Paul, I am of Luther, I am of Zwingli, the point is that people tend to elevate their teachers, and in doing so they forget Who is the Author and finisher of The Faith.
On the other hand when people elevate their teacher, Pastor , Priest, the danger of a cult forming is possible!

Anyway your response clarified all else. Thank You

 

[BreadOfLife]

This applies to the unsaved. IRRELEVANT

This applies to the unsaved. IRRELEVANT

This applies to the unsaved. IRRELEVANT

We are talking about those who are saved (outside the CC). They are *unsaved* according to your church because (a) they are outside the Catholic Church which is the so-called *means of salvation* and (b) they do not believe that anyone is saved "through the Church" (the genuine Body of Christ) and (c) they do not believe that Mary is the Mother of the Church or the Mediatrix in Heaven. Your church has pronounced an *anathema* on these Christians.

WRONG.

this applies to ANYBODY who is not a Catholic.

First of all - the Catholic Church does not use the term “saved” to describe a Christian because we realize, as the Bible teaches, that salvation is a PROCESS – not a one-time event. “Saved” is a term that was brought into use by Protestants.

Secondly – devotion to Mary as Mediatrix of graces is NOT a dogmatic position of the Church and is NOT required for anybody to believe in order to gain salvation. This is a lie that YOU made up.

Finally – NOBODY has imposed an anathema on YOU.

ALL of the anathemas ever proclaimed by the Church were directed towards CATHOLICS – not Protestants.

Do your HOMEWORK . . .

 

[aspen]

Which is why the CC is known as the Antichrist... In place of Christ. And Mary is just one of many rabbit holes within the Catholic religious framework that effectually removes the mediatorial role of Christ and tramples it into the dust.

Your Christ is sure weak. Threaten by his own mother?

 

[Grailhunter]

lol …All denominations have their issues. Several Protestant denominations believe they are the only way to salvation. All established denominations have written doctrines, statements of faith, and beliefs. This is not unique to the Catholic Church.

We are all old enough to have lived through the crimes and scandals of several denominations. It is like any organization that is worldwide, any crime or scandal that occurs in the Catholic Church is more likely to make the news. I have long said they should get rid of the celibacy thing because is has done nothing but bring disgrace to the Church. But still, other denominations are not immune to this. Although a Protestant preacher molesting a child may make the local news, most of the time not the national news…..The crimes of a priest is broadcasted worldwide. Even the Boy Scouts are taking hits.

The Catholic Church is an easy target…for one it is worldwide…as in the largest, so it is a big target. It has had a lot of time to make mistakes…depending on how you count it …..the term Catholic was applied to the Church shortly after the turn of the 1st century and whether Christ was the first Pope, or Peter, or Linus, or Anacletus, it don’t matter, they were there pretty much from the beginning. That is nearly 2000 years. The Catholic Church like all churches has the levee of man in it, and as such is going to be corrupt in someway. The Catholics had the time and the power to do all sorts of wrongs…even atrocities. Alternatively most Protestant churches are barely over 200 years old, some less. There are some older than Lutheran but still barely over 500 years old. The Catholic Church has spent 2000 years trying to hold the Church together, the protest churches could never agree on the scriptures and almost immediately began fracturing the church into thousands and thousands of denominations. Because of that, they never really had the power to do anything on a large scale, right, wrong, or indifferent.

The Protestants did not have the lineage of Christian history to call their own so they developed a whole array of man-made laws to make themselves feel righteous. The “don’t doers religion” where the most holy Protestant is one that lives in a closet and only comes out for church. It is certainly the lazy man’s approach to religion. How can you apply Christianity if you do not do good deeds? Living in a closet with the only action is to gossip about man-made laws is just not it. Christ and the Apostle Paul struggled against those that would add the burden of man-made laws to the backs of Christians. Christ’s longest discussion in the gospels were about those that judged and hypocrites.

Now you can point to one of the thousands of denominations and call it your own and as your own, the only one that is right and saves. Or you can say most of the denominations lead to salvation. It pains me to say it, but we are obliged to even call Calvinists…into the fold of Christians. You can get on your high horse and point at the Catholics for the wrongs they have done, but with that reasoning, when something corrupt or scandalous occurs in your denomination, I guess that means you have egg on your face, and you have to abandon it. Then what are you going to choose, you definitely have a selection, but that does not mean you will find one that is perfect.

For me, I just like Christians. I do not claim any one denomination because no denomination can address or contain the complexities of my beliefs. It does not bother me that they do not believe as I do. I do not believe that there should be one church unless Christ is signing the documentation. Then again, I believe, hundreds, thousands, or tens of thousands are too many. I am more along the lines of the Baskin & Robbins, mind set, 31 flavors would have been enough.

 

[Grams]

Well I never felt saved..

We had to go to confession to a priest to confess our sins.
And I just never felt my sins were taken away.
the church I grew up in at that time was Latin and polish
And I did not understand any of that......
How can a priest do that ?
It may have just been back then like that and maybe only the
church I went to. I have a friend who still goes to the C. C.
and she is comfortable with that..
And no bible, just prayer books..........

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well I never felt saved..

We had to go to confession to a priest to confess our sins.
And I just never felt my sins were taken away.
the church I grew up in at that time was Latin and polish
And I did not understand any of that......
How can a priest do that ?
It may have just been back then like that and maybe only the
church I went to. I have a friend who still goes to the C. C.
and she is comfortable with that..
And no bible, just prayer books..........

And that is a big, fat LIE.

The entire first half of the mass is the Liturgy of the Word – where an OT reading, an NT reading and a Gospel reading are presented.

If YOUR impression is that there is “no Bible” in Catholicism – you must have been asleep during your years as a Catholic because your ignorance of the Church is astounding . . .

 

[Grams]

I do not know why you keep telling me this !!!!!!!!! ??????????

I have mentioned several times the mass is in Latin and the
speaking in between is in Polish.
After a while the child just does not listen any more .
Why because they do not speak those language... or understand..
How do you follow a prayer books in English when the priest is speaking
in Latin ????
And one thing you may not understand...... Back then things were different
it was in the 1940's..... And after so many years a child just started to
blank out what is going on..... boring,,,,, doing this 6 day's a week....

 

[aspen]

Well, I am going to give my opinion, which expands on the Catholic teaching that a Trinitarian baptism unites Catholics and Protestants in a separated brethren sort of way. I was an imperfect Christian before I joined the Catholic Church and I am an imperfect Christian today. I believe Christ saves us and the Holy Spirit perfects us, not doctrine. I am Catholic because I enjoy it. I believe The Holy Spirit is working on overhauling my heart everyday and it is quite a job - the Catholic Church has provided support from 2,000+ history from a part of the Body of believers I never knew before. I also believe in the Real Presence. I still attend a Protestant Church about once a month and am welcomed by members I consider to be brothers and sisters in Christ. A few of them have negative views of Catholicism especially if they are former Catholics - I love them, as well and allow them their opinion - it is part of their sanctification. Thanks for contributing to this thread, everyone

 

[Philip James]

Hi Philip - I'm pretty active on another roman catholic forum and the things they post - and believe - astound me.

The freedom we enjoy in Christ astounds many ;)
I am going to (briefly) address some of your points. If you wish a deeper discussion please pm me or start a new thread.

So, I am taking someone else's assertions, but they are catholic.

seriously though, don't take any ones word on a forum as Catholic teaching (not even mine lol). If you really want to examine what the Church teaches, I would suggest you read the cathechism from the beginning (including the foreward with the purpose and intent of the cathechism). You will find both scriptural and Traditional support for its teachings. I would be happy to walk through it with you and answer any questions...

Most of the doctrine taught by this church just aren't scriptural. Most all of the Marian doctrine isn't anywhere in the bible. At all.

well, I think 'most of the doctrine' is indeed consistent with scripture. I take 'the Holy Spirit will lead you into all Truth ' to heart, and thus accept the things HE has taught to the Church down through the centuries. Do you think all doctrine must be explicitly stated in scripture? What of the ecumenical councils?

As for Mary, I'm sure others are better qualified to give you scriptural support, but I would start with the ark of the covenant and the Queen mother of the Davidic kingdom...

Catholics believe they must work to retain their salvation or even help Christ attain it.

works without faith is useless and faith without works is dead...

'Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' but not do what I command?' - Jesus

'See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.' - St. James

'Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church' - St. Paul

Is Paul saying Jesus' passion was insufficient? God forbid! He is saying that Christ has done HIS part, and now we must do ours...

Obedience is NOT optional.

Scripture is always taken out of context. Jesus' parables, for one example. Many times He's referring to unsaved people, yet the catholics on this forum argue that Jesus is "warning" His own disciples that they'll be cut off and cast away. Scripture just doesn't support that.

Rom 11: 20-22

That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe.




For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either.



See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

God tells us over and over that salvation is a free gift, we're sealed by the Holy Spirit - that nothing can snatch us out of His hand. Yet catholics (and other sects) don't believe this.

We do indeed believe that! We also believe that we have freewill and can ourselves 'leave HIS hand'.

If you have never turned your back on HIM or been willfully disobedient, then Praise the Lord.
As one who has done those things (to my shame), I can attest that one can indeed fall from Grace... it doesn't end well... except that Alleluia! Jesus in HIS mercy WILL heal us if we turn back to HIM.

Baptism doesn't save;

'This prefigured baptism, which saves you now ' - St Peter

Christ's blood is what redeems us and was the perfect sacrifice for our sin.

Agreed! Every faithful Catholic believes this!

There's no purgatory;

'But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.' - St. Paul

you can't pray to saints,

Do you never ask others to pray for you? Do you pray for others? The communion of the saints is REAL! :)

The Apostles didn't teach any of the above

I believe I just showed that they did... however this will take us off topic, pm me if you have more questions ;)

and the New Testament church is nothing like the RCC.

An acorn doesn't look much like a fully grown oak tree, yet they are one and the same. What do you think the NT church looked like? Where was it in 100 AD, 200AD, 300 AD... ?

While all of this likely comes across poorly in writing, I don't say any of this with malice or in an ugly way.

no worries, I have thick skin ;) But just a suggestion, I wouldn't throw 'false doctrine' around to nonchalantly, it is a serious charge...

We're supposed to defend the faith and call out false doctrine.

sure. but who arbitrates if you and I have a dispute? How do we preserve the peace and unity of the body and walk on , bearing with one another in love? If we can't agree, and are unwilling to submit to one another, we splinter, and splinter, and splinter... Is Christ divided?

Peace be with you!

Christ IS risen!
Alleluia!

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Hi ~ I'm not sure what your question is, I'm sorry!

Do you mean 1 Corinthians 3:4-7?

4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not mere men? 5 What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. 7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth.

If so, there were people in Corinth who were bragging that they followed Apollos or Paul, and Paul is saying hey we're just servants! God causes the growth....Paul always pointed people back to God.

If you mean something else, let me know.

If it helps, my point is that the gospel is pretty much summed up in John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. <--- this is the good new of Jesus Christ

There's nothing we, as humans, can do to earn it, add to it, keep it, etc., it's a free gift from God - totally undeserved.

The Catholic Church teaches one must do works to keep it; do works to (somehow) assist Christ in getting it....that along with the Marian doctrine, etc., is a different gospel and we're warned about that, for example - But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:8

If that's not what you wanted me to address please let me know, I'll be happy to clarify whatever....

@illini1959 how powerful to you believe Christ's grace is, to save wretched sinners?
Is it strong enough to save a person even if they have some wayward understandings?

 

[amadeus]

The present practice of reading the entire Bible at Catholic masses or services within a certain time frame [three years now, if I remember correctly] was not the case a number of years ago... or at least it was not practice in all Catholic Churches apparently prior to Vatican II. I was an active Catholic until 1961 at only one Catholic Church, one of the original 21 California missions established by the Spanish when they arrived and claimed California as theirs. During all my years there only a few short verses were ever read and those always by the priest in connection with his words spoken [usually a called a sermon among protestants] to the people in English. [The mass itself was always in Latin.]

I remember wishing that they would read more of the Bible. But they never did while I was still active among them. When I have visited them several times in more recent years, I scarcely recognized any part of what they did other than the communion service and even that had changed. Yes, things certainly have changed. Better or worse? Overall I cannot say for usually my visits were for funerals or weddings which of course would be different from the norm. But the increased amount of Bible reading is certainly an improvement in my opinion.

 

[atpollard]

Agreed.
Seems like we don't know who the enemy is.

Thanks,
On behalf of everyone that believes in a Sovereign God whose arm is not short and just loves hearing Him described as a monster and Calvinists as the “enemy” for embracing what scriptures actually say.

 

[atpollard]

Then again if you are not going to condemn a church that preaches that God is a merciless bloodthirsty monster

... [Genesis 3:6 NASB] 6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make [one] wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.

Yup, man is a god and God sits in heaven wringing his hands and hoping that someone will grant Him permission to save them. I wonder who first suggested that idea?

 

[Grailhunter]

... [Genesis 3:6 NASB] 6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make [one] wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.

Yup, man is a god and God sits in heaven wringing his hands and hoping that someone will grant Him permission to save them. I wonder who first suggested that idea?

lol, I keep telling people that Calvinism is not a cult. I really do believe that. But when Calvinists put what they believe in motion, it is horrid. I sometimes consider that it maybe away of getting attention or a persecution complex. But that cannot be true either, because you guys hide it. You hide it because you know, I mean you know, that if people knew what Calvinism or
predestinationists believe, they would not want to have anything to do with you. It makes people wonder what kind of heart you have? Just like the abortion doctor that gets up in the morning, cleans up, has breakfast and goes to work each day to murder a few babies. What kind of heart could do that? But Calvinism is a million times worse than that, because when you put it in motion, you describe and worship a god that does that to millions of men, women, and children. Damning them to hell by no fault of their own, no hope, no mercy, no escape! What kind of heart could bend a knee to that god? Still, I believe in going the extra mile. You have to be forgiven...I and others have tried to help you guys....people with more heart and patience than I, God love'em! But you are like that drug addict that was arrested for prostitution and sat in the police station in hand-cuffs, hardly no teeth, and a face that looked like something from the dawn of the living dead, and argued with me that drugs are good, that I would not understand, and it was her right to take drugs and she would never stop! Like her, reality escapes you! People are sad for you. There are people on this site that have hearts that I admire. When I came here you people were attacking the ladies that were trying to help you! "Woe on to you! Satan this and Satan that!" But still they stood fast and tried to help you guys. To my amazement and wonder they never gave up! It was like I was watching the Grace of God in motion! I am thinking that you are Christians, and you are saved. Just really misguided! So I do not believe that Calvinism is a cult. But for a heart to believe what you believe, there has to be some sort of mind control. Either way, the people here wish the best for you. But at least when you are communicating with them, take into consideration their hearts. That they want good for you. God bless.....

 

[Enoch111]

lol, I keep telling people that Calvinism is not a cult.

When any Christian group promotes a false gospel, then that becomes a cult. Also, a cult centers around one man, so that's another indication. Calvinists should have rejected Calvinism a long time ago.

But this thread is about the cult of Mary, so you are currently off-topic. Mary has replaced Christ in Catholic theology, and that is an extremely serious deviation from the truth.