Is the Gift of Salvation nullified by the consequences of refusal?

[O'Darby]

OMGoodness.
Sorry to hear him say that. He speaks for evangelicalism. (fundies)
The predestination thing is a mess. What sort of God would do that?
Born to burn?

--- PARODY ---

God: Welcome to the afterlife.
Person: Who are you?
God: I created you for my own purposes.
Person: Like what.
God: For destruction.
Person: What does that mean?
God: It means eternal conscious torment.
Person: Why?
God: It was my choice for you.
Person: What did I do to deserve this.
God: You were born a sinner.
Person: Not by my choice.
God: Right. By my choice.
Person: Was that fair?
God: It doesn't matter. You can't stop me.
Person: Who did you say you were again?
You sound more like the Devil than God.

/

Of course, WLK doesn't view this as predestination. According to Molinism, God knew every choice everyone would make in every possible world, including this one. He knew those in Ooga Booga (both Lower and Upper) would reject Him of their own free will, so He arranged for them to be placed there. (Actually, I shouldn't speak for WLK. He may have just been thinking out loud. I have heard him say a few pretty wild things for someone of his stature.)

Lower Ooga Booga no longer exists. After they had eaten a succession of missionaries, the Inquisition pretty much decimated the population. What used to be Lower Ooga Booga is now a Walmart distribution center in the SE corner of Kenya. Tragic.

 

[Behold]

OK, but I do think we all tend to fall in love with our own ideas. I try to view my own from the perspective of "This is a way of thinking about" whatever the mystery may be - a way that resonates with me, that I am capable of believing.

James 1:8

 

[Behold]

Pre-planned before creation, the created had to fall. And then turn to the source of the fall to save them.

Not "Pre-planned" but "fore-known"..

Let me show you..

Now, you are going to post again.... READERS.
And God "Fore-knew" you would, before you were born.

That is not God pre-destining you to post... that is God's Foreknowledge as His "all knowing".

The Bible is the same.
You can open a bible 3500 yrs ago and it will tell you that Jesus is on the Way.
But that is not the Bible pre-destining Jesus, that is God Foreknowing He's coming and writing it down as revelation.

Open the NT.

"The TRIB is on the way"..

That is not the Bible pre-destining the Trib to happen........that is God showing you its coming because He foreknew it before the Earth was created.

= God KNOWS the end from the beginning, regarding everything..

However that is not God CAUSING It, and that is where John Calvin and his deceived people, do not "get it"... so they lost the track, and end up off the course and into the darkness.

 

[St. SteVen]

Lower Ooga Booga no longer exists. After they had eaten a succession of missionaries, the Inquisition pretty much decimated the population. What used to be Lower Ooga Booga is now a Walmart distribution center in the SE corner of Kenya. Tragic.

Reminds me of an elephant joke.

What's the black stuff between an elephant's toes?
Slow running natives.

What's the pink stuff between an elephant's toes?
Slow running missionaries.

/

 

[ScottA]

OK, but I do think we all tend to fall in love with our own ideas. I try to view my own from the perspective of "This is a way of thinking about" whatever the mystery may be - a way that resonates with me, that I am capable of believing.

Sorry, I just saw that I left out the word "don't" in saying, "I [don't] do much opinion or mere belief here." I corrected/edited it.

But, yes, we do and should all proceed along in the what you have described...so long as we remember, or better yet, expect that God sends some with words from Him, and has done so down through all of history. At some point it would be good if we didn't just stone them. But that does not look like what will happen, ever, in this world.

 

[AW Bowman]

A most interesting thread.
The word “salvation” is a Noun: (theology) the act of delivering from sin or saving from evil​

The word “free:, as used in the book of Romans: It is not in the original text, but added for emphasis/clarity.
That word is: G1432 δωρεάν dorean (dō-re-an') adv.
1. as a free gift, freely.
2. (negatively) for nothing, without charge.
3. (by implication) without cause. {literally or figuratively} [accusative case of G1431 as adverb] KJV: without a cause, freely, for naught, in vain
Root(s): G1431 - G1431 δωρεά dorea (dō-re-a') n. 1. a gift, present. 2. (especially) a free gift.

Conclusion: I think we can all agree that biblical salvation is indeed a “free gift”. I posted the following example on another (but related) thread:
- A hypothetical: I advertised a free car to everyone who will show up at my house and pick one up. The vehicle is comply free, no strings attached.
- You show up and I give you the keys and title, and send you on your way.
- But did you first "count the costs"?
- There are a few "future" costs involved: (1) Registration, (2) Insurance, (3) Gas and Oil, (4) Maintenance, (5) taxes, (6) and of course, a valid driving license.
- Question: Is the free vehicle {then] actually "free" of obligations?

There are 140 specific instructions Jesus gave to those who would be His disciples. These instructions cover 21 different spiritual areas. In response to how well His disciples obeyed those instructions was summed up In Luke 6:46: “And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” By extension, can one return a used gift? Yes! Hebrews 6:4-6

A convent generally has two sides, the giver and the recipient, with obligations for both to keep and/or fulfill. What are the obligations for God, and the recipients, of the “New Convent”? Now, I think that would be a more interesting Bible study.

 

[Behold]

Jesus is Salvation.

So, He is the Gift of God, given as this..

"Jesus came into the world to SAVE Sinners"..

So, this is an offer of Salvation that is The Cross of Christ.

Rejecting the offer does not "nullify salvation" it just seals the damnation of the Christ Rejector.

Like this..

John 3:36

 

[Scott Downey]

Of course, WLK doesn't view this as predestination. According to Molinism, God knew every choice everyone would make in every possible world, including this one. He knew those in Ooga Booga (both Lower and Upper) would reject Him of their own free will, so He arranged for them to be placed there. (Actually, I shouldn't speak for WLK. He may have just been thinking out loud. I have heard him say a few pretty wild things for someone of his stature.)

Lower Ooga Booga no longer exists. After they had eaten a succession of missionaries, the Inquisition pretty much decimated the population. What used to be Lower Ooga Booga is now a Walmart distribution center in the SE corner of Kenya. Tragic.

Vomited out the nations which were before you, is the penalty for the things they did.
Abominable sexual carnality, see the thing is those things are of Satan, as in demonic, and people like that worship Satan to fulfil their lusts of the flesh. Minds like that are ruined, corrupted, evil and they spread it to everyone around them like cancer to all the people including regionally the lands and the beasts. Land which God gave to people as an habitation, they defiled the lands, all the nations of the world defile the world, the creation. We can see that today in the continually progressive mindset towards evil, unsaved people are bent towards evil and destruction, they glory in what is shameful to God. Unless God changes their heart, they will also be vomited out of the land into hell.

lest the land vomit you out also when you defile it, as it vomited out the nations that were before you.

19 ‘Also you shall not approach a woman to uncover her nakedness as long as she is in her customary impurity. 20 Moreover you shall not lie carnally with your neighbor’s wife, to defile yourself with her. 21 And you shall not let any of your descendants pass through the fire to Molech, nor shall you profane the name of your God: I am the Lord. 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination. 23 Nor shall you mate with any animal, to defile yourself with it. Nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it. It is perversion.

24 ‘Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for by all these the nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you. 25 For the land is defiled; therefore I visit[c] the punishment of its iniquity upon it, and the land vomits out its inhabitants. 26 You shall therefore [d]keep My statutes and My judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations, either any of your own nation or any stranger who dwells among you 27 (for all these abominations the men of the land have done, who were before you, and thus the land is defiled), 28 lest the land vomit you out also when you defile it, as it vomited out the nations that were before you. 29 For whoever commits any of these abominations, the persons who commit them shall be [e]cut off from among their people.

30 ‘Therefore you shall keep My [f]ordinance, so that you do not commit any of these abominable customs which were committed before you, and that you do not defile yourselves by them: I am the Lord your God.’ ”

 

[St. SteVen]

From the OP.

Familiar words.
"... it is by grace you have been saved... the gift of God..."

What is the nature of a "gift"?
- It's free.
- You can't earn it.
- Nothing is expected in return. (hopefully, or it isn't free)
- Consequences for refusal would make it extortion.

Here's how it might look in human terms.
Man #1: I have a free gift for you.
Man #2: Thanks, But I'm not interested.
Man #1: Not interested? I said it was free!
Man #2: I'm pretty sure there are some strings attached.
Man #1: Well, of course. But it's FREE!
Man #2: Not really, if there are strings attached.
Man #1: This is my final offer. Better take it now, or else!
Man #2: Uh... or else what?
Man #1: You will be incinerated!
Man #2: Seriously? What kind of free gift is that?

Since salvation is a gift, it should meet the criteria of a gift.
- It's free.
- You can't earn it.
- Nothing is expected in return.

If salvation fails to meet this criteria, it isn't a gift.

Romans 4:4-5 NIV
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly,
their faith is credited as righteousness.

[

 

[Behold]

The "Gift of Salvation" is God's forgiveness of all sin, and subsequently = the eternal Birth of the Believers spirit, by God's Holy Spirit, into God.

"God is A Spirit" and the believer is birthed spiritually, into God "who is A Spirit"..

So, what is that?

That is forgiveness of all sin, based on "the one time ETERNAL Sacrifice of Jesus"""

And the end product of this Eternal Forgiveness is to become a BORN....again... (Spiritual Birth)...

So, why can this never end?

Because there is no means for it to end.. as SIN is gone.. and a BIRTH has occurred.

Why is that the final answer? Its because you can't stop being born.

Just ask your mother , if you are not quite comprehending what im showing you reader.

Notice...

"Mother, i dont believe in you any more, and so, now im not born of you any more, as my faith in you, is gone"


A.) Can we get someone to give this deceived (crazy) person some blue pills, so that they can get their mind back, as they seem to believe that if they DECIDE to not be born, they can stop being born...

And why am i showing you this reader?

Its because when you are BORN... again, this is a spiritual BIRTH, and you can't end it by "thinking wrong" or "bad behavior", as you cant STOP being born..

So, when you find heretics trying to deny all this, because they ..

A.) are not born again

B.) are born again, and have no idea what it means...

Then just put them away, as you would any other deceived person, who is trying to ruin your faith.

 

[St. SteVen]

Familiar words.
"... it is by grace you have been saved... the gift of God..."

What is the nature of a "gift"?
- It's free.
- You can't earn it.
- Nothing is expected in return. (hopefully, or it isn't free)
- Consequences for refusal would make it extortion.

Here's how it might look in human terms.

Man #1: I have a free gift for you.
Man #2: Thanks, But I'm not interested.
Man #1: Not interested? I said it was free!
Man #2: I'm pretty sure there are some strings attached.
Man #1: Well, of course. But it's FREE!
Man #2: Not really, if there are strings attached.
Man #1: This is my final offer. Better take it now, or else!
Man #2: Uh... or else what?
Man #1: You will be incinerated!
Man #2: Seriously? What kind of free gift is that?

Since salvation is a gift, it should meet the criteria of a gift.
- It's free.
- You can't earn it.
- Nothing is expected in return.

If salvation fails to meet this criteria, it isn't a gift.

Romans 4:4-5 NIV
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly,
their faith is credited as righteousness.

[

 

[Taken]

Is the Gift of Salvation nullified by the consequences of refusal?​

Yes.

Because the “Caveat” is “IF”. …”THEN”.

“IF” is Belief in one’s Heart (ie. Natural spirit, ie. Natural Truth).

“IF” Physically Bodily Die Having Belief…
God will save them “Then”.
God will Resurrect their Body (First Resurrection).

“IF” Physically bodily Alive Having Belief…
And “Confess” their True Belief…
They Forgiven for having had not believed.
Their body is “Spiritually” Baptized, Crucified with Jesus. (Ie receive Gods Seed)
Their BODY, accounted Dead, washed, cleansed, justified, sin covered.
They accounted, Living “IN” Jesus’ risen Body.
Their Soul Saved. (Restored)
Their spirit born again of Gods Seed.
Their body waits to be Redeemed by the Lord, risen up to Clouds. (Rapture).
While they are Physically alive, they ARE (already), Saved, Sanctified, Set Apart.

They are among Believers, Divided from Unbelievers.

They ARE Sanctified, Divided from the UN Sanctified.

God from the Beginning of Creation “DIVIDED” His Creations …
and “MAKES” His FREEWILL choosing Creations who Desire to Be With Him, a WAY for that posibility.

Glory to God,
Taken[/I]

 

[amigo de christo]

Is the Gift of Salvation nullified by the consequences of refusal?​

Yes.

Because the “Caveat” is “IF”. …”THEN”.

“IF” is Belief in one’s Heart (ie. Natural spirit, ie. Natural Truth).

“IF” Physically Bodily Die Having Belief…
God will save them “Then”.
God will Resurrect their Body (First Resurrection).

“IF” Physically bodily Alive Having Belief…
And “Confess” their True Belief…
They Forgiven for having had not believed.
Their body is “Spiritually” Baptized, Crucified with Jesus. (Ie receive Gods Seed)
Their BODY, accounted Dead, washed, cleansed, justified, sin covered.
They accounted, Living “IN” Jesus’ risen Body.
Their Soul Saved. (Restored)
Their spirit born again of Gods Seed.
Their body waits to be Redeemed by the Lord, risen up to Clouds. (Rapture).
While they are Physically alive, they ARE (already), Saved, Sanctified, Set Apart.

They are among Believers, Divided from Unbelievers.

They ARE Sanctified, Divided from the UN Sanctified.

God from the Beginning of Creation “DIVIDED” His Creations …
and “MAKES” His FREEWILL choosing Creations who Desire to Be With Him, a WAY for that posibility.

Glory to God,
Taken[/I]

Correct indeed my friend .
In fact i give us all this one simple reminder . Go to and behold how often they warned men
TO Repent to beleive ON JESUS THE CHRIST . and go to and behold how paul and others warned them who had rejected it .
YOU are correct my friend . GOD KNOWS , THE SON KNOWS , THE SPIRIT KNOWS
and the apostels knew OF THE DIRE NEED TO BELIEVE ON HIM .
but todays lovey do sure seems to omit the YE MUST BELEIVE IN HIM part . rather odd
cause that sure sounds like what the serpent did at the tree .
GOD had said SPECFICALLY they would DIE if they ate . The sepent convinced them otherwise . AND as we all know
DEATH CAME UPON MAN and all ever since they took that bite.
YEARS later ONE would come , JESUS THE CHRIST , for GOD so loved the WORLD that HE DID send HIS SON
so that all who do BELEIVE would NOT perish but have everlasting life .
But once again that ol serpent has been at work to say NAY , nAY , surely ye shall not perish .
BUT THAT AINT WHAT JESUS said nor the apostels . ME is sticking WITH HIS WORDS for they be TRUE and I KNOW THEY ARE OF GOD .
as for men that speak contrary , YEP i wont heed a word one outta those lips .

 

[Behold]

'"""Is the Gift of Salvation, nullified by the consequence of refusal".

A.) The gift of Salvation when refused, has been refused.......and the consequence of that free will choice, is eternal.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Is the Gift of Salvation nullified by the consequences of refusal?​

Yes.

Because the “Caveat” is “IF”. …”THEN”.

“IF” is Belief in one’s Heart (ie. Natural spirit, ie. Natural Truth).

“IF” Physically Bodily Die Having Belief…
God will save them “Then”.
God will Resurrect their Body (First Resurrection).

“IF” Physically bodily Alive Having Belief…
And “Confess” their True Belief…
They Forgiven for having had not believed.
Their body is “Spiritually” Baptized, Crucified with Jesus. (Ie receive Gods Seed)
Their BODY, accounted Dead, washed, cleansed, justified, sin covered.
They accounted, Living “IN” Jesus’ risen Body.
Their Soul Saved. (Restored)
Their spirit born again of Gods Seed.
Their body waits to be Redeemed by the Lord, risen up to Clouds. (Rapture).
While they are Physically alive, they ARE (already), Saved, Sanctified, Set Apart.

They are among Believers, Divided from Unbelievers.

They ARE Sanctified, Divided from the UN Sanctified.

God from the Beginning of Creation “DIVIDED” His Creations …
and “MAKES” His FREEWILL choosing Creations who Desire to Be With Him, a WAY for that posibility.

Glory to God,
Taken[/I]

If I understand your position, I agree with it. Christians need to remember that Salvation is a gift that can be refused but those whom God has sanctified with his spirit will never refuse it or reject it.

 

[Taken]

If I understand your position, I agree with it. Christians need to remember that Salvation is a gift that can be refused but

those whom God has sanctified with his spirit will never refuse it or reject it.

They who Have accepted Gods Offering of His Gift of Sanctification, (can Not thereafter refuse or reject His sanctification)…

Because…Acceptance of His Gift,
INCLUDES, “His Power” to Forever Keep that individual “Sanctified”, and no man has power “greater” than God, to Supersede Gods Power.

An individual “choosing” to Accept Gods Gift of Sanctification, IS Warned, to be SURE of his Choice…Because Gods works / making regarding that man is Permanent

1 John 4:
[4] Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

2 Pet 1:
[10] Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Heb 13:
[5] Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

God bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Ritajanice]

but those whom God has sanctified with his spirit will never refuse it or reject it.

Correct..Amen....I became Born Of The Spirit and had no say in the matter..because I was .chosen and predestined to become Born Again...

God prepared my heart and opened it, in his perfect timing for him to birth my spirit into his..

Only the Spirit can testify with our spirit that we are Gods children.

He drew me to Jesus, he drew me to initially believe in Jesus...then gave me the supernatural faith to know him in my spirit, that is where we know the Living Spirit Of God...as = Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Gods Living testimony/ witness resides in our spirit permanently......as our spirit has been birthed supernaturally by the Living Spirit....very hard for some people to understand....as they are in the natural man....and would not understand anything spiritual....as it’s folly to them.

I call it my miracle birth...mind Blowing when the Spirit testified with my spirit, that I am Gods child...

No scripture verses can testify with our spirit that we are Gods children, only the Living Spirit Of God can do that....

Of course the natural man would have no understanding of what I have just post...

 

[Behold]

those whom God has sanctified with his spirit will never refuse it or reject it.

God does not sanctify anyone until they give God their Faith in Christ........= whereupon, God forgives their sin, and gives them the "New birth" as ""born again".

And NOW they are sactififed.... because NOW they are "IN Christ""" ....whereas before they were just Hell bound sinners in unbelief........found here.

= John 3:36

 

[Ritajanice]

Romans 12

King James Version

​

12 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.
9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;
11 Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;
12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.
15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

 

[Jack]

Familiar words.
"... it is by grace you have been saved... the gift of God..."

What is the nature of a "gift"?
- It's free.
- You can't earn it.
- Nothing is expected in return. (hopefully, or it isn't free)
- Consequences for refusal would make it extortion.

Here's how it might look in human terms.

Man #1: I have a free gift for you.
Man #2: Thanks, But I'm not interested.
Man #1: Not interested? I said it was free!
Man #2: I'm pretty sure there are some strings attached.
Man #1: Well, of course. But it's FREE!
Man #2: Not really, if there are strings attached.
Man #1: This is my final offer. Better take it now, or else!
Man #2: Uh... or else what?
Man #1: You will be incinerated!
Man #2: Seriously? What kind of free gift is that?

Since salvation is a gift, it should meet the criteria of a gift.
- It's free.
- You can't earn it.
- Nothing is expected in return.

If salvation fails to meet this criteria, it isn't a gift.

Romans 4:4-5 NIV
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly,
their faith is credited as righteousness.

[

Rev 20 They will be tormented FOREVER .....