Is the Gift of Salvation nullified by the consequences of refusal?

[Eternally Grateful]

Agreed, but you deny that works are part of salvation.

yes I do. but the bible also denies it.

Now you are getting mad saying me misrepresent you. and here you go again teaching works salvation.

Faith alone apart from works is your Baptist gospel.

There is no such thing as faith alone apart from works.. Thats your flaw and your strawman to convince yourself you are correct in adding works to the gospel.

You contradicted yourself when you admit faith is a work then claim no works to be saved.
btw, Danthemailman doesn't believe faith is work period. He teaches it is not even a work of God.
So you two are not agreeing on what faith is. That's confusion.

I never admitted faith was a work. I posted a passage that says it is a work of God that we believe

You work to earn a reward or a wage.

Salvation is a gift. it can not be earned by works.

No, you ignore what I teach. As we will see now...

lol..

Agreed. Proof you dont grasp what I'm teaching or like Dan are using strawman tactics
We both agree that NO WORKS OF MAN ARE INVOLVED IN SALVATION.

Yet how many times have you said we are saved by works.

come on man, are you that hardened that you can't even grasp what you are saying? then expect us to listen to you?

Faith is a work of God that we work through obedience to His gospel commandments, 1John 3:23-24.

Obedience to his gospel is to do as the tax collector did.

He went home justified. because he obeyed the gospel.

When I believed in Jesus and His gospel that is a work of God that I'm obeying, not my work, a work of man.
If it was my works then it could not have been authorized by God.
It was not my gospel to include faith
Not my gospel to include repentance
Not my gospel to include confession
Not my gospel to include baptism
These are all Gods works that I obey.
When we obey God we are working the works of God by a obedient faith.
Not a faith of mans willl
A faith doing Gods will.

repent is a state of mind, not a work
Once again, Faith, what is yoru faiht in, the work of God or the work of self.
Confess. that happens AFTER we are saved. not to be saved.
And baptism, a work, like circumcision. and like the jews. you just proved you teach works.

I have no works of my own. You dont understand, really don't want to listen!

so your did not get baptised?

Faith is not my work. God commands it in His gospel. I believe the gospel so I do Gods commandments
Repentance is not my work, its Gods work in His gospel. I believe His gospel so I do His commandments by working His works, John 6:28-29,
- How may we work the works of God?
Jesus said unto them, this is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He sent

Eternally Grateful when you were water baptized did you do your own work apart from Gods commandment to be baptized, Mark 16:15-16.
Or did you do you learn about baptism from God?
You will teach baptism is a work of man as you have many times.
Who taught one must be water baptized? Man or Jesus? John 3:5; Mark 16:15-16.

I was saved a year before any man immersed me in water. I was saved when GOD baptised me into Christ.. No man can do that..

Obeying what God says is doing His works.
No works of man in what I teach.
I teach the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Only His will must be worked, Matthew 7:21.


That is your ignorance of how Jesus' gospel works.
John taught it is a commandment to believe in Jesus, 1John 3:23-24
Therefore you must obey/do this commandment to be saved.
When we obey Gods commandments like believe and obey the commandment to be baptized
We are working the works of God.
Perfect harmony.


Right here you just contradicted your gospel of faith apart from all works to be saved.
You follow a man made gospel that originates from the works of the devil.


Here you are again contradicting yourself.
His work on the cross is what saves us!
Make up your mind! Works or no works!


Amen! No works of man save.
That is why believing in God is a work of God that we do, just as Jesus taught, John 6:28-29.

Now if you try and say I'm teaching works of man save again.
Since you know I do not believe or teach this.
You will become a liar like Dan if you say I teach works of man save from this point on.

Let's see if you are an honest man?

once again. Proof you teach a works based gospel.. yet you will continue to deceive yourself and say you do not teach this..

 

[amigo de christo]

Imagine this . many , many years ago there was a man .
He was made king of israel .
His desire was to get the ark of the covenant back to THE CITY .
That man was dancing a massive jig of praise . LEAPIN UP and dancin himself right out of his garments .
SO HAPPY was that man that the ark of the covenant was coming back to the city .
AND yet i have to think as i see such long faces today , HOW MUCH MORE lambs should have rejoiced
IN THE NEW COVENANT of a far better promise . But if our hopes and dreams are in this world
then we miss the true joy of ALL that GOD has DONE FOR US in CHRIST .
The cares and pleasures in life WILL SURELY CHOKE THE WORD right out of a man .
HOPE IN GOD , GLORY IN THE LORD and the next time one wants to holler GOD dont love
them cause they aint got some big house , REMEMBER WHAT HE DID FOR US ALL AT CALVARY .
DO NOT LET THE HOPES OF THIS WORLD DESTROY YOU .
HOPE THOU IN GOD and LOVE EVERY ONE OF HIS HOLY WORDS OF TRUTH , whereby we shall grow wise .

 

[CadyandZoe]

I don't really understand what you are getting at with this above. Peter, among others, addresses the matter of crises of faith, as we call it, and what is the result for the true Christian.

Yes, Paul, Peter, and James each talk about the testing of our faith. The question is this. Do we have a toughened, unbreakable faith resistant to apostasy? And am I constitutionally capable of such a resilient, hardy faith that it will never fail, or do I need divine aid?

Incomplete how?

The regenerated never return to the fleshy life. The born again are not "unborn", think Nicodemus, Can we become unborn? We believe, and we are born again, and that is a complete change of who and what we are. That change does not undo itself. God did it, and He assures us the result remains.

Peter also tells us that God is guarding us by His power through faith. Our faith is God's power in us. He does not fail us. Our very lives are His life in us. I'm crucified with Christ, yet I'm alive, yet not I, Christ lives in me.

No, I don't put anything to strength of will aside from our inconsistent ability to cooperate with what the Holy Spirit is doing in our lives, in us.

Much love!

The character makes no choices as it's own self-determinate being, not even in the least respect. It's not just a matter of "how much independance". There is none.

Yes, but remember, the novelist is telling a story. And within the story, the character acts of his or her own free will. That is, the behavior of each character is explicable in terms of the character's dreams, wishes, values, expectations, etc. The character's choices aren't arbitrary or inexplicable.

You need to ask the Creator to be sure.

What do you think about love? Is love of value if not freely given? Is love given by one's own choice the same as love that is "written into the story"? Do you want to read a book about lovers, or would you rather be in love with someone who is in love with you? What makes these different? A movie? A pre-programed AI virtual reality? Some are turning to this already!

I want to do both. I want to read the story of Romeo and Juliet and I want to experience love myself. Both are valuable and both are true.

What makes it "less than" a real love relationship with a real person?

What is real? How do we define "real'? Is God "more real" than we are? Some would argue that God is the "most real being"

I believe God created us to love Him in the same way He loves, because it's what we want. What we, ourselves, want. What we choose. Love.

Much love!

Could Romeo and Juliet love Shakespeare the same way that Shakespeare loved them?

 

[Titus]

Now you are getting mad saying me misrepresent you. and here you go again teaching works salvation

You absolutely are misrepresenting me.
The Bible directly condemns earning salvation through meritorious works,
Ephesians 2:8-9,
For by grace you have been saved by faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God, NOT OF WORKS(MERIT) LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST

By saying I'm teaching works salvation you accuse me of teaching salvation through earning by the works of man!!!!

Well now I know you are a liar like your friend Dan,
Romans 3:4,
- God forbid yea, let God be true but every man a liar

 

[amigo de christo]

LEt all contend for the true faith while there is still time to do so .
The delusion of the all inclusive worlds version of love is taking captive many hearts right to a lie .
We must stand and contend now , now for the one true gospel . While there is still time to do so .
cause i must remind us all , WHEN JESUS RISES UP and Closes the DOOR its gonna be too late
for ALL who are outside . IF we want folks saved , POINT TO JESUS CHRIST . THE JESUS IN THE BIBLE .

 

[Titus]

LEt all contend for the true faith while there is still time to do so .
The delusion of the all inclusive worlds version of love is taking captive many hearts right to a lie .
We must stand and contend now , now for the one true gospel . While there is still time to do so .
cause i must remind us all , WHEN JESUS RISES UP and Closes the DOOR its gonna be too late
for ALL who are outside . IF we want folks saved , POINT TO JESUS CHRIST . THE JESUS IN THE BIBLE .

Amen!

 

[amigo de christo]

Amen!

lambs must contend for the TRUTH . We cannot let men lead folks astray
by another jesus which AINT JESUS . We must teach EVERYTHING HE DID , EVERYTHING the apostels did .
AND learn all the holy scrips whereby one will be made wise unto salvation THROUGH FAITH IN CHRIST .
I am watching too many die in dead faith and unbelief . THOUGH they claim to have faith and BELIEF .
We must arise now and contend more than ever for the one true faith of CHRIST JESUS , ALL HIS TEACHINGS
all SOUND DOCTRINE , ALL THINGS the early church both did and taught to do , WE MUST DO and teach all to do .
NEVER LET ANYONE ever try and convince us otherwise .
EVERY WARNING must be used , every reminder , every word . HIT THE TRENCHES IN THIS LAST HOUR

 

[marks]

Yes, Paul, Peter, and James each talk about the testing of our faith. The question is this. Do we have a toughened, unbreakable faith resistant to apostasy? And am I constitutionally capable of such a resilient, hardy faith that it will never fail, or do I need divine aid?



Yes, but remember, the novelist is telling a story. And within the story, the character acts of his or her own free will. That is, the behavior of each character is explicable in terms of the character's dreams, wishes, values, expectations, etc. The character's choices aren't arbitrary or inexplicable.

I want to do both. I want to read the story of Romeo and Juliet and I want to experience love myself. Both are valuable and both are true.

What is real? How do we define "real'? Is God "more real" than we are? Some would argue that God is the "most real being"



Could Romeo and Juliet love Shakespeare the same way that Shakespeare loved them?

I appreciate the nice conversation, but I think we're circling around. I don't find the story analogy to agree with what I read in the Bible, but then at the heart of the matter I believe God intends for us to choose whether or not we will believe in Him. In my vocabulary, to make a choice means to be the originator of that choice. If God chose that I would choose such and such, that's not really my choice.

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

I appreciate the nice conversation, but I think we're circling around. I don't find the story analogy to agree with what I read in the Bible, but then at the heart of the matter I believe God intends for us to choose whether or not we will believe in Him. In my vocabulary, to make a choice means to be the originator of that choice. If God chose that I would choose such and such, that's not really my choice.

Much love!

I pray none are following the circle back tatics of ol jen . Just a friendly reminder .
Just said it cause i seen the world circle and remembered the title circle back that was given to ol jen
a while back . Anway , ITS LORD PRAISING TIME IN THE BUILDING .

 

[St. SteVen]

Is it wrong to look at the whole nature of the Gift and not only that it is free?

It doesn't matter who the giver is.
If it isn't free, it isn't a gift.

Interesting how many have replied with all sorts of workarounds for such an obvious problem.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

It doesn't matter who the giver is.
If it isn't free, it isn't a gift.

Interesting how many have replied with all sorts of workarounds for such an obvious problem.

I wasn’t saying it isn’t free. How can it not matter who the giver is if the gift is the Holy Spirit? You said all that matters is the gift is free. Satan can offer a gift too? No? And say it is a free gift. As in they promise you Freedom (Liberty) while they themselves are still in bondage?
2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Im so confused over it does not matter who the giver is? Only the gift matters that “it is Free”. Without the gift of the Holy Spirit from the One who gave the Holy Spirit…there is no made Free.

 

[St. SteVen]

Yes, biblically speaking, the free gift is eternal life. Meaning: we can't earn it.
Question: Suppose you could earn it. Would you still want it?

Interesting question.
I suppose it depends on WHAT I would have to do to earn it.
Can't imagine what... ???
If I did, it certainly wouldn't be free.

The bottom line is this. God's gift is not only "free" it is so inestimable that it is beyond price. The value is incalculable. If I could earn it, I wouldn't want it.

If it cost you ANYTHING, then it isn't free.

As far as I can tell, the ONLY reason we call it free is because we CAN'T earn it, or even buy it.
Though it seems that some try to. (buy it)

 

[St. SteVen]

I wasn’t saying it isn’t free. How can it not matter who the giver is if the gift is the Holy Spirit?

The gift being discussed on this topic is eternal life.
You brought the Holy Spirit.

Whether a gift is FREE, or not, does not change because of the giver.
If it's REALLY a free gift, it cost you nothing.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The gift being discussed on this topic is eternal life.
You brought the Holy Spirit.

Whether a gift is FREE, or not, does not change because of the giver.
If it's REALLY a free gift, it cost you nothing.

“The gift being discussed on this topic is eternal life. you brought the Holy Spirit.”
What? The Holy Spirit is Life. How is it invasive “You brought the Holy Spirit.” How can eternal life be discussed without the Holy Spirit?

I was just reading about which is greater the Altar or the gift on the Altar. Which is greater the temple of the gold sanctified by the temple. I will give you that you are correct in wanting to bring attention to and speak of the gift. I’m wrong to stop you from it so continue on. But I do have questions like for example why does He say if you have something against your brother, leave the gift on the Altar and go make amends with your brother first. Is that even possible? To go make amends with your brother first without the Gift the Altar sanctified? But I’ll butt-out of your thread. It still confuses me how …unless I misunderstood that this is a thread to talk about the gift only, and not the Holy Spirit. Am I confused in the Holy Spirit IS the Gift?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You absolutely are misrepresenting me.
The Bible directly condemns earning salvation through meritorious works,
Ephesians 2:8-9,
For by grace you have been saved by faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God, NOT OF WORKS(MERIT) LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST

By saying I'm teaching works salvation you accuse me of teaching salvation through earning by the works of man!!!!

Well now I know you are a liar like your friend Dan,
Romans 3:4,
- God forbid yea, let God be true but every man a liar

Your can't with a straight face read your posts and think you do not teach works.

You can post eph 2 all you want.. What you preach and that passage are in opposition to one another.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I appreciate the nice conversation, but I think we're circling around. I don't find the story analogy to agree with what I read in the Bible, but then at the heart of the matter I believe God intends for us to choose whether or not we will believe in Him. In my vocabulary, to make a choice means to be the originator of that choice. If God chose that I would choose such and such, that's not really my choice.

Much love!

Okay. Thanks for the conversation and the opportunity to flesh out divine determinism.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Interesting question.
I suppose it depends on WHAT I would have to do to earn it.
Can't imagine what... ???
If I did, it certainly wouldn't be free.

If it cost you ANYTHING, then it isn't free.

As far as I can tell, the ONLY reason we call it free is because we CAN'T earn it, or even buy it.
Though it seems that some try to. (buy it)

If it cost you ANYTHING, then it isn't free.
Interesting. What if it cost someone else? Is it still "free"?

"Starting in March 2020, the Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security Act (CARES Act) provided Economic Impact Payments of up to $1,200 per adult for eligible individuals and $500 per qualifying child under age 17."

My kids got a check and so did I. My son says to me, "Look Dad, free money!" I told him, "Government money isn't free son."

 

[St. SteVen]

But I’ll butt-out of your thread. It still confuses me

You could re-read the OP, I suppose. That might help.

 

[Titus]

Your can't with a straight face read your posts and think you do not teach works.

You can post eph 2 all you want.. What you preach and that passage are in opposition to one another.

I can absolutely with a clear conscience teach that faith apart from works is not faith.
Biblical faith according to Paul is an obedient faith.
Therefore faith that refuses to obey God cannot save. St. SteVen says the opposite of Paul and teaches we can be recieve Gods grace if we only believe but refuse to obey God.

Agree.
Even to those who refuse to work have righteousness imputed through faith

This is the faith alone religions false gospel!!!!

Paul said the only true faith that can gain access to Gods grace is a faith that obeys God,
Romans 1:5,
- by whom we have recieved grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name.

That is true Biblical faith Sir.

Paul teaches us the only faith that is of any profit to you is a faith that works.
Meaning a faith that takes action in doing Gods will. Works that come from faith must be from love else it is a worthlesss faith. Faith alone is a loveless faith because God defines love as obedience to Him and His commandments.

Galatians 5:6,
- for in Jesus Christ neither circumcision nor uncircumcision profits anything
Nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love

I teach the faith that saves.
I do not teach works of man merits salvation.

Faith rightly defined as saving faith always takes action by obeying.
Saving faith is never alone.

Example John 3:16
Is John teaching faith alone here?
Study the context of chapter 3 and you will not come to the wrong conclusions unless you are indoctrinated into a churches theology.

John 3:16
John 3:14-16,
- And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness even so must the Son of man be lifted up: that whoever believeth in Him should not perish but have eternal life

Jesus just taught that Moses and the jews were saved by a faith that obeyed God!
God gave a work for the them to look at the serpent on a pole and they would be saved.

Faith had to obey Gods commandments to be saved. That is the kind of faith Jesus is teaching in John 3:16.

Numbers 21:8,
- and the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people and they bit the people and much people of Israel died
- Therefore the people came to Moses and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against thee, pray unto the Lord that He take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people
- And the Lord said unto Moses make thee a fiery serpent and set it upon a pole and it shall come to pass that everyone that is bitten when he looketh upon it he shall live
- and Moses made a serpent of brass and put it upon a pole and it came to pass that if a serpent had bitten any man when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived

Their faith had to take action and obey Gods commands or they died!

If those deceived today by this false faith of faith and no obedience to Gods commandments were there being bitten by those fiery serpents.
What do you think they would have said to Moses?

They would have said: Moses I do not have to look at the pole.
All I have to do is believe what God said.
Faith without action would have resulted in death!

So when Jesus taught faith saves in John 3:16.
He never ment faith apart from obedient works.
The proof is the example of saving faith Jesus gave with Moses and the serpent on the pole.

God has always required mankind to believe and obey to receive Gods grace.

 

[St. SteVen]

If it cost you ANYTHING, then it isn't free.
Interesting. What if it cost someone else? Is it still "free"?

It's free to me. - LOL
A free gift always costs something to the giver. (that's the point)
The higher the price, the better the gift. (usually)