Is the Gift of Salvation nullified by the consequences of refusal?

[marks]

Some people see salvation as a standing offer to be accepted by anyone who wants it. But that idea doesn't seem to square with the Bible's teaching concerning the privation of the soul, the mind, and the heart of human beings. And while belief seems to be the prerequisite to salvation, and while belief seems to be the prerequisite to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, I found that the reverse is actually true.

It's OK, we don't need to go through it all. I know the arguments. I don't agree.

I personally find the Bible to be very explicit about receiving Jesus, believing in Him, as the required obedience, which, if we do in fact believe in Him, receiving Him according as the Bible speaks, it follows that God births us in regeneration.

The Bible answers every objection, and the grace of God unto salvation has appeared unto every man, so yes, without His intervention, none of us would seek Him. But He comes to us, and He gives to us to us His Word, and He gives to us that measure of faith, and we have to be obedient to choose to believe His Word.

I've found that the Bible is in full harmony throughout with God's sincere invitation to all, to come to Him through Christ. That all are invited, even commanded, and that this command is sincere, not like my commanding a rock to float up to the moon.

That Jesus actually invites all who are weary to come to Him. That Jesus actually does draw all men to Himself, having been crucified for them. And we urge you, be reconciled to God! All this is sincere, just like it sounds, not covering over a different agenda. That would be dishonest.

Much love!

 

[07-07-07]

Is the Gift of Salvation nullified by the consequences of refusal?​

Yes, refusal to continue in the faith will nullify your Salvation by your own neglect. God is holy and righteous, and so are His people.

 

[marks]

Authors don't program responses, they simply write them.

These are functionally exactly the same. The end result is what the writer of code or novels put there, not more, not less, and not independant from the writer.

Much love!

 

[Scott Downey]

God has predetermined all of our days before any of them had occurred. That includes all things that we experience today.

16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.
======================================
Psalm 139
O Lord, You have searched me and known me.
2 You know my sitting down and my rising up;
You understand my thought afar off.
3 You [a]comprehend my path and my lying down,
And are acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word on my tongue,
But behold, O Lord, You know it altogether.
5 You have [b]hedged me behind and before,
And laid Your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
It is high, I cannot attain it.
7 Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in [c]hell, behold, You are there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning,
And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
10 Even there Your hand shall lead me,
And Your right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, “Surely the darkness shall [d]fall on me,”
Even the night shall be light about me;
12 Indeed, the darkness [e]shall not hide from You,
But the night shines as the day;
The darkness and the light are both alike to You.
13 For You formed my inward parts;
You [f]covered me in my mother’s womb.
14 I will praise You, for [g]I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Marvelous are Your works,
And that my soul knows very well.
15 My [h]frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.
17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God!
How great is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they would be more in number than the sand;
When I awake, I am still with You.
19 Oh, that You would slay the wicked, O God!
Depart from me, therefore, you [i]bloodthirsty men.
20 For they speak against You wickedly;
[j]Your enemies take Your name in vain.
21 Do I not hate them, O Lord, who hate You?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?
22 I hate them with [k]perfect hatred;
I count them my enemies.
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart;
Try me, and know my anxieties;
24 And see if there is any wicked way in me,
And lead me in the way everlasting.

​

 

[VictoryinJesus]

What is the nature of a "gift"?
- It's free.

There is a lot there is those words (Imo)
First the question “what is the nature of a “gift”?”
Would it depend on “the nature”
of the gift giver; as to “the nature” of the gift?
For example: the Spirit God gives unto you is the Spirit of power, of love and of a sound mind.
It is contrasted by what spirit He does not give unto you: the spirit the world gives; the spirit of fear unto bondage again.
Ask “what is the nature of a gift”? Is the gift the nature of the Spirit of God who is the gift giver? or the nature of the flesh? As in Luke 11:13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

What is the nature of the gift? Good question.
It’s free.
Whom the Lord makes free is free indeed. Does “the Gift is Free” speak of “the Gift is Liberty.”

What is the nature of a gift.
The nature of the Gift …is the nature of the Holy Spirit. The Gift is Liberty. Because where the Spirit of God is, there is (Free!) Liberty!”

 

[St. SteVen]

I realize that this answer is longer than you might have expected. But this subject is bringing back memories of my conversion experience and how excited I felt about it.

Thanks for sharing. I ALWAYS appreciate personal testimonies.

At the end of the day, Christianity is about a RELATIONSHIP, not about religion.

 

[St. SteVen]

Thanks for your reply.

What is the nature of a gift.
The nature of the Gift …is the nature of the Holy Spirit. The Gift is Liberty. Because where the Spirit of God is, there is (Free!) Liberty!”

Could you react to this bit from the OP? Thanks.

Since salvation is a gift, it should meet the criteria of a gift.
- It's free.
- You can't earn it.
- Nothing is expected in return.
If salvation fails to meet this criteria, it isn't a gift.

 

[Scott Downey]

Thanks for your reply.

Could react to this bit from the OP? Thanks.

Since salvation is a gift, it should meet the criteria of a gift.
- It's free.
- You can't earn it.
- Nothing is expected in return.
If salvation fails to meet this criteria, it isn't a gift.

definitely a gift. God makes you born of God not willingly so to speak, not of your will, but of His will you are born again and believe in Christ. That is the free gift of salvation.
John 1:10-13 speaks of that.
We do receive Him but only if born again first, John 3 speaks to that. You must be born again to even see perceive the kingdom of God.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His [c]own, and His [d]own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the [e]right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

v13 action precedes v12, they received Him as they were born of God., had been born of God

1 John 5 ESV says Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

 

[St. SteVen]

definitely a gift. God makes you born of God not willingly so to speak, not of your will, but of His will you are born again and believe in Christ. That is the free gift of salvation.
John 1:10-13 speaks of that.
We do receive Him but only if born again first, John 3 speaks to that. You must be born again to even see perceive the kingdom of God.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His [c]own, and His [d]own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the [e]right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

v13 action precedes v12, they received Him as they were born of God., had been born of God

1 John 5 ESV says Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

Thanks.
I think we agree, unless there was a rebuttal in there that I overlooked.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Thanks for your reply.

Could react to this bit from the OP? Thanks.

Since salvation is a gift, it should meet the criteria of a gift.
- It's free.
- You can't earn it.
- Nothing is expected in return.
If salvation fails to meet this criteria, it isn't a gift.

I wasn’t disagreeing but was asking instead of meeting the criteria of a gift…wouldn’t it be the meeting of criteria of the one who gave the gift? Isn’t that what is debated …what does God require? Then is the answer still… nothing?

 

[St. SteVen]

I wasn’t disagreeing but was asking instead of meeting the criteria of a gift…wouldn’t it be the meeting of criteria of the one who gave the gift? Isn’t that what is debated …what does God require? Then is the answer still… nothing?

I agree.
But if the answer is NOT nothing, is it really a gift?

The biblical answer is 'Yes." Assuming "gift" was the best word to use in translation.
But based on what we know about gifts, it is not being presented as free if there are requirements. Right?
Even you imply that there are strings attached, but definitely want to call it gift.

 

[Scott Downey]

I wasn’t disagreeing but was asking instead of meeting the criteria of a gift…wouldn’t it be the meeting of criteria of the one who gave the gift? Isn’t that what is debated …what does God require? Then is the answer still… nothing?

Definitely salvation is the free gift of righteousness. God according to His abundant mercy has begotten you again to a living hope. ​

You are elect according to foreknowledge of God to be sanctified, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Christ

1 Peter 1​

Greeting to the Elect Pilgrims​

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To the [a]pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

A Heavenly Inheritance​

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance [b]incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been [c]grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not [d]seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

 

[Titus]

Faith saves apart from the merit of works (Romans 4:2-6)

Dan you are using a strawman by telling the same lie about me over and over.
Anyone can read what I teach regarding works and how they are involved in salvation.
My position has never been we can earn or merit our salvation.
The works the Bible teaches in James chapter 2 are works of obedience to Gods gospel.
I teach faith that saves is faith that obeys.

Since you know good and well I do not believe in meriting salvation you are the strawman Dan.

Strawman argument: informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.

St SteVen said what faith only salvation is: A salvation where one only believes but has no good works no obedience to Gods commandments in His gospel to be saved or to stay saved.
That is salvation by faith alone. I never used a strawman argument.
Here it is said right from the horses mouth,

Agree.
Even to those who refuse to work have righteousness imputed through faith

Faith alone salvation is salvation through belief only and disobedience ,refusal to work Gods commandments!

Dan you know you believe you can disobey Gods commandments and be saved if you only believe.
You don't like me exposing your false gospel.
This is why you continually lie about me, telling others I teach a meritorious works based salvation.
That is a lie, you know it is a lie, that makes you a liar.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

But you can't pay for it. Only Christ could. thats the cross..

Amen, Extremely COSTLY!:



Amen.

 

[amigo de christo]

Dan you are using a strawman by telling the same lie about me over and over.
Anyone can read what I teach regarding works and how they are involved in salvation.
My position has never been we can earn or merit our salvation.
The works the Bible teaches in James chapter 2 are works of obedience to Gods gospel.
I teach faith that saves is faith that obeys.

Since you know good and well I do not believe in meriting salvation you are the strawman Dan.

Strawman argument: informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.

St SteVen said what faith only salvation is: A salvation where one only believes but has no good works no obedience to Gods commandments in His gospel to be saved or to stay saved.
That is salvation by faith alone. I never used a strawman argument.
Here it is said right from the horses mouth,

Faith alone salvation is salvation through belief only and disobedience ,refusal to work Gods commandments!

Dan you know you believe you can disobey Gods commandments and be saved if you only believe.
You don't like me exposing your false gospel.
This is why you continually lie about me, telling others I teach a meritorious works based salvation.
That is a lie, you know it is a lie, that makes you a liar.

I willl sum it up again .
GOD SAID , ABRHAM BELIEVED WHAT GOD SAID , ABRHAM OBEYED WHAT GOD SAID TO DO .
Now that IS TRUE FAITH . Its proof of WHO WE LOVE and WHOSE WE ARE .
So lets repeat the phrase for all to hear and see .
GOD SAID , ABRAHAM BELIEVED WHAT GOD SAID , ABRAHAM OBEYED WHAT GOD SAID TO DO .
GOD SAID , CHRIST SAID , HOLY SPIRIT FILLED APOSTLES BELIEVED and OBEYED .
And they , the apostles , By the SPIRIT had some words to teach as well .
So lets sum up true faith , true belief .
WHATEVER GOD SAYS , CHRIST SAYS , THE HOLY SCRIPS SAID , LAMBS BELIEVE AND DO .
Its just that simple . What we LOVE is what we do . A man cannot LOVE GOD
and be a hearer only . Its why i always say , WHATEVER THEY DID IN THAT BIBLE and INSTRUCTED the church to do
WE DO . ALL THINGS . Including correction , including the warnings , including ALL OF IT . See how simple that is .
YET look around . MANY often omit things , twist things , add things in that are contrary and take things
out that get in the way of what THEY WANT TO DO . That IS THE PROBLEM .
But not lambs . Not lambs . Lambs shall feast upon ER WORD OF THE LORD with JOY in their hearts .
For the words of the LORD are as honey to the taste of a lamb .

 

[amigo de christo]

Dan you are using a strawman by telling the same lie about me over and over.
Anyone can read what I teach regarding works and how they are involved in salvation.
My position has never been we can earn or merit our salvation.
The works the Bible teaches in James chapter 2 are works of obedience to Gods gospel.
I teach faith that saves is faith that obeys.

Since you know good and well I do not believe in meriting salvation you are the strawman Dan.

Strawman argument: informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.

St SteVen said what faith only salvation is: A salvation where one only believes but has no good works no obedience to Gods commandments in His gospel to be saved or to stay saved.
That is salvation by faith alone. I never used a strawman argument.
Here it is said right from the horses mouth,

Faith alone salvation is salvation through belief only and disobedience ,refusal to work Gods commandments!

Dan you know you believe you can disobey Gods commandments and be saved if you only believe.
You don't like me exposing your false gospel.
This is why you continually lie about me, telling others I teach a meritorious works based salvation.
That is a lie, you know it is a lie, that makes you a liar.

You can spot false grace real fast .
When folks use grace as a means to disobey , omit , go around the TRUTH . IT AINT GRACE , ITS LICENSE TO SIN is all it is .
Hope that summed it up . Grace dont give us license to contradict GOD , CHRIST , THE SPIRIT , the things INSPIRED OF GOD .
IT PLANTS THE LOVE OF TRUTH UPON our hearts .
How many times do you hear someone use the excuse HEY WE UNDER GRACE NOW ,
to disobey something they dont like in the scripture .
Grace dont do that . MAN DOES THAT , NOT GRACE .

 

[CadyandZoe]

Are you suggesting that not all will be prepared by God.
Are there people not being prepared?
Just wondering, because I believe it's God's desire that all will be saved, so I think He would prepare all, but some refuse preparation.

Yes, God desires that all be saved. And we should pray for all to be saved as Paul says in his first epistle to Timothy.

But he has other desires also. And at times he chooses to forgo one desire for a greater desire. Paul the apostle, in Romans 9, helps us understand. Some are created to be the subjects of his wrath while others are created to be the subjects of his mercy in order to demonstrate the glory of his grace. He tells us that they "were prepared beforehand for glory." Romans 9:23

 

[CadyandZoe]

yet leaving it out changes the meaning.

He does not promise all things will work out for the good of everyone. only to those who love jesus

why do we love? because he loved us first.

without salvation. we are dead in our sin, and lost in a sea of sin and unrighteousness.

Good point.

 

[CadyandZoe]

It's OK, we don't need to go through it all. I know the arguments. I don't agree.

I personally find the Bible to be very explicit about receiving Jesus, believing in Him, as the required obedience, which, if we do in fact believe in Him, receiving Him according as the Bible speaks, it follows that God births us in regeneration.

The Bible answers every objection, and the grace of God unto salvation has appeared unto every man, so yes, without His intervention, none of us would seek Him. But He comes to us, and He gives to us to us His Word, and He gives to us that measure of faith, and we have to be obedient to choose to believe His Word.

I've found that the Bible is in full harmony throughout with God's sincere invitation to all, to come to Him through Christ. That all are invited, even commanded, and that this command is sincere, not like my commanding a rock to float up to the moon.

That Jesus actually invites all who are weary to come to Him. That Jesus actually does draw all men to Himself, having been crucified for them. And we urge you, be reconciled to God! All this is sincere, just like it sounds, not covering over a different agenda. That would be dishonest.

Much love!

I understand your point of view. The question on the table is "How far is God's reach?"

Consider, a man might think of himself as basically good, living a moral life punctuated by an occasional moral failure. Upon hearing the Gospel and believing it, he rests his hope for salvation on the finished work of Jesus Christ. But, upon reflection, he wonders whether a failure of faith is inevitable. Suppose in a moment of crisis when his livelihood is on the line, he recants. Will he lose his salvation?

The point is this, the very man who lived the moral life of his own free will, and yet failed; is the same man who heard the gospel and believed it of his own free will. It stands to reason that if it is inevitable that a moral man will fail, isn't it also inevitable that the believing man will also fail? If a man is unable to persevere in his moral life, why would we expect him to persevere in his life of faith?

It seems that your point of view is incomplete. Something must account for the perseverance of the faith, seeing that strength of will isn't enough.

Yes?

 

[CadyandZoe]

These are functionally exactly the same. The end result is what the writer of code or novels put there, not more, not less, and not independent from the writer.

Much love!

No, they are not functionally the same. But I agree, the character of a novel is not independent of the writer.

Two questions:
Is independence necessary?
Can a creature become independent from the creator?