Is the Gift of Salvation nullified by the consequences of refusal?

[marks]

with God's transcendent nature.

This isn't a "get out of jail free" card.

And the only thing in reality that is similar to God's transcendence is the author's transcendence over the characters in his novel. If I wrote a story about a couple getting engaged, not only would I write that the man proposed to his lover, but that he got down on his knees, showed her the ring, and I would describe the look on her face. The entire story is in my hands: the man's love, the woman's love, the ring, the knee, the venue, everything. Authors don't program responses, they simply write them.

And the character in that story is not a person at all, but is a manifestation of your ideas about a person. But is not a person making choices. They are a 2 dimensional representation of a person.

God made real people who make real choices and face real consequences for those choices.

Anyway, I understand this is your view of determinism. I simply do not agree, for the reasons I've said. Thank you for answering my question, I understand your views better now.

Much love!

 

[marks]

No, not regardless of His righteous commandment; In view of his righteous commandment.
When I received Jesus, I heard the call and I obeyed. Both the call and the obedience were present. God determined both the call and the obedience. Both the call and the obedience are written in the story.

A rock "obeys" the law of gravity in that it doesn't just float away. But it's not making a choice to obey, it does the one thing that the laws of physics allow. That is, it's acting according to how it was made. But it does not choose to obey. That was pre-programmed.

Much love!

 

[Scott Downey]

Christ prays NOT for the world, but only for those given to Him by the Father, for they are (yours) HIS, signifying ownership before belief.

They are yours means God foreknew His own people individually before they believed in His Son. Just that they had to believe and that is what God does for His own, His work is that you believe in the One whom He has sent...

9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep[d] through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them [e]in the world, I kept them in [f]Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is [g]lost except the son of [h]perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

 

[marks]

You and I are discussing Paul's assertion that God causes all things to work for the good of those whom God called according to his purpose.

We were? I didn't realize that. To me, that is a different discussion.

Much love!

 

[Scott Downey]

Hebrews 2:13
And again: “I will put My trust in Him.” And again: “Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Everyone born is an unsaved sinner. So start with the proper perspective on sin.
Born into the natural world, you are a natural creature, you sin. God does not have to be the author of sin, people sin because they are natural born sinners, outside of the Spirit of God and lost. If you believe that people are born and do not sin, and are naturally saved, then loose it when they consciously sin, you then believe salvation can be lost. But Christ does this,
Hebrews 7:25
Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

explain adam

 

[marks]

Christ prays NOT for the world, but only for those given to Him by the Father, for they are (yours) HIS, signifying ownership.

They are yours means God foreknew His own people individually before they believed in His Son. Just that they had to believe and that is what God does for His own, His work is that you believe in the One whom He has sent...

9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep[d] through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them [e]in the world, I kept them in [f]Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is [g]lost except the son of [h]perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Here, Jesus is praying for His disciples. Later He will pray for all who believe because of them.

Much love!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Somehow my computer got messed up so if I already answered this I apologize.
The important issue here is to understand the Biblical view of salvation. You and I are discussing Paul's assertion that God causes all things to work for the good of those whom God called according to his purpose.

One need only ask how that can be. How can God cause ALL things?

I will leave it as an open question if you like.

why did you not quote the whole verse?

Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

why did you leave out "to those who love God"?

 

[CadyandZoe]

A rock "obeys" the law of gravity in that it doesn't just float away. But it's not making a choice to obey, it does the one thing that the laws of physics allow. That is, it's acting according to how it was made. But it does not choose to obey. That was pre-programmed.

Much love!

I'm sorry. I miscommunicated. How is a falling rock analogous to an author telling a story?

 

[marks]

explain adam

He's the one to be discussing. The rest of us were in Adam when he sinned, "In Adam, all died." We sinned because we were born sinners, and went right along with that. Adam sinned, and we're talking about why he sinned.

Someone is responsible. Here's a question . . .

If Adam does as God intended him to do, was Adam wrong in doing do? If a rock falls when dropped, was it wrong to do so?

Much love!

 

[marks]

why did you not quote the whole verse?

Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

why did you leave out "to those who love God"?

If a man steals my tomato plants from my garden, I can use that spot to plant onions, and I can enjoy those onions, but that doesn't mean that the man was supposed to steal my tomatoes! Working something for good does not mean you instigated the situation that is being worked for good.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I'm sorry. I miscommunicated. How is a falling rock analogous to an author telling a story?

How is an author telling a story analogous to God giving life to men?

The falling rock is an example of something fulfilling it's story. It's merely acting according to how it was made, like the characters in a story.

Much love!

 

[CadyandZoe]

We were? I didn't realize that. To me, that is a different discussion.

Much love!

Some people see salvation as a standing offer to be accepted by anyone who wants it. But that idea doesn't seem to square with the Bible's teaching concerning the privation of the soul, the mind, and the heart of human beings. And while belief seems to be the prerequisite to salvation, and while belief seems to be the prerequisite to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, I found that the reverse is actually true.

Consider Jesus' parable of the sower. What is the ONE prerequisite necessary for the production of fruit? The proper soil condition. The parable speaks about four different soil types: road, rocky soil, weeds, and good soil. The only seed that survives the hot sun and matures to a fruit-bearing plant is the seed planted in good soil.

Jesus explains the parable. The seed represents the Gospel message, the soil represents the heart of he who hears. And if a person believes the gospel message that man or woman will be saved, if and only if he or she perseveres in belief.

It stands to reason, then, that if the farmer is primarily and ultimately responsible for a mature fruit crop, then God is also primarily and responsible for a heart that perseveres in faith. The farmer plows the field, just as God prepares the heart.

We observe that some people believe but not all people who believe persevere in belief. From this parable we come to understand that belief is not the only condition for salvation. Rather, perseverance is also required. But perseverance is not predicated on the will of man; it is predicated on the God who prepares the heart. Just as the farmer plows the field; God prepares the heart. Not all those who believe will continue to believe, but all those whom God has prepared with a good and honest heart will persevere in belief.

 

[CadyandZoe]

why did you not quote the whole verse?

Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

why did you leave out "to those who love God"?

I didn't mean anything by it.

 

[Triumph1300]

but all those whom God has prepared with a good and honest heart will persevere in belief.

Are you suggesting that not all will be prepared by God.
Are there people not being prepared?
Just wondering, because I believe it's God's desire that all will be saved, so I think He would prepare all, but some refuse preparation.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I didn't mean anything by it.

yet leaving it out changes the meaning.

He does not promise all things will work out for the good of everyone. only to those who love jesus

why do we love? because he loved us first.

without salvation. we are dead in our sin, and lost in a sea of sin and unrighteousness.

 

[Scott Downey]

Here, Jesus is praying for His disciples. Later He will pray for all who believe because of them.

Much love!

Same thing, Jesus prays or intercedes only for believers in Him. God the Father's work is that you believe.

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

If God does not work His work in you, you will never believe in Christ.
And of all those God gives to Christ His will is none be lost.
God foreknew His people before they were born or had done anything good or bad, whom He would give to Christ as believers in Him.

 

[marks]

Same thing, Jesus prays or intercedes only for believers in Him.

John 17:20 KJV
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

This is not a limiting statement.

God the Father's work is that you believe.

Context . . . always context. If you post the whole passage, it won't say what you are representing here.

The people were asking, what does God want us to do?

Much love!

 

[Scott Downey]

The Gospel comes to a man by revelation of God. No man understands without God who is the Christ.
God's purpose and grace was given to us who will believe before time began, so yes, God chooses whom He will show mercy and compassion apart from the work of the creature.

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher [c]of the Gentiles. 12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

 

[Scott Downey]

to be saved and know God and the Son, this is not inclusive, it is exclusive, only those whom the Godhead actively will, as in choose, to know God will find God. To the others, this is hidden from them, and they will never believe in Christ. The source of all knowledge and revelation is God to man, no man can know Christ and God unless Christ wills it, otherwise they remain blinded to the gospel. Also Read 2 Cor 4. For them that believe not, they may believe in a God, but Christ divides them into the saved and the unsaved. No one is a free agent.

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 22 All[g] things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

23 Then He turned to His disciples and said privately, “Blessed are the eyes which see the things you see; 24 for I tell you that many prophets and kings have desired to see what you see, and have not seen it, and to hear what you hear, and have not heard it.”