Is the Gift of Salvation nullified by the consequences of refusal?

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marks

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Yes. I affirm the concept of "divine determinism."
To my understanding that would make God the author of sin, and I don't believe that. As I look at verses such as, "come to me, all who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest", all of the invitations, "now we urge you, be reconciled to God", these all become disengenuous if God has already determined everything. I don't see God speaking disengenously, which is in reality dishonestly.

Much love!
 
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marks

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Who created Adam's motives?
The author of a novel doesn't force his characters to act in certain ways. He simply writes it down on paper.
You are trying to have it both ways.

If God created Adam's motives, you are saying God gave Adam the motive to sin. So God is the originator of sin, and created man so that he would sin. You cannot then go back and say God is merely narrating the story of Adam's life, but not choosing it for him, ie, does not force him to act in certain ways.

Much love!
 

marks

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Is belief the "cause" of salvation? Does the second result from the first? Some would say, "Certainly. The Bible promises that God will save all those who believe."

Or, do belief and salvation have another connection? When it says that whoever believes has eternal life, it doesn't necessarily indicate causation. Believing and eternal life might take place at the same time according to a common cause, but the one doesn't cause the other, they are simply causes together at the same time.
This is answered here,

John 1:11-13 KJV
11) He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Believing the Gospel is a command, and to believe is to obey.

You must receive Jesus.

Your view then is that you receive Jesus if God wrote your story that way, and if He didn't, you will not. Regardless of His righteous commandment. So then God commands all to repent and believe, but has actually pre-installed under the floorboards those who will, and those who will not. Pre-programmed disobedience to a commandment that never could be obeyed, not because you chose to disobey, but because it was chosen for you to be disobedient.

I don't see another way to look at that view than to think that God through creation communicated disobedience into man, and through commandment communicated obedience, except creation wins out over the commandment, and God instructs righteousness from those whom He created to not be righteous.

It makes God self-contradictory to me, acting contrary to His statements, what we'd call an hypocrit. God is honest, and I take Him at face value. If He tells me I have to choose, then I realize that I have a choice to make.

Much love!
 
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CadyandZoe

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To my understanding that would make God the author of sin, and I don't believe that. As I look at verses such as, "come to me, all who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest", all of the invitations, "now we urge you, be reconciled to God", these all become disengenuous if God has already determined everything. I don't see God speaking disengenously, which is in reality dishonestly.

Much love!
I understand. Yet, all your objections are resolved in the transcendence of God.
 

CadyandZoe

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I don't understand how this concept fits with your view of God's determinism. No one chooses, actually, right? Hasn't God already chosen for them?

Much love!
The transcendent creator, who is authoring my story, wills that I believe and trust in him.
 
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marks

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I understand. Yet, all your objections are resolved in the transcendence of God.
Just by saying so?

My real objection is that God presents the Gospel to us as a choice, an act of obedience or disobedience. He holds us responsible for our choice. He urges us to make the right choice. He warns us against the wrong choice.

Determinism makes that all to be show, just pre-programmed actors acting out their parts. And all this about choosing becomes dishonest.

These views are in direct conflict. You cannot have both to be true.

Much love!
 
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CadyandZoe

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You are trying to have it both ways.

If God created Adam's motives, you are saying God gave Adam the motive to sin. So God is the originator of sin, and created man so that he would sin. You cannot then go back and say God is merely narrating the story of Adam's life, but not choosing it for him, ie, does not force him to act in certain ways.

Much love!
Why not? Why can't both be true at the same time? There is no logical reason why a transcendent creator can't do both: author Adam's choices and then punish him for those choices. God is not sinful for writing a story that has sin in it, is he?
 

CadyandZoe

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You are trying to have it both ways.

If God created Adam's motives, you are saying God gave Adam the motive to sin. So God is the originator of sin, and created man so that he would sin. You cannot then go back and say God is merely narrating the story of Adam's life, but not choosing it for him, ie, does not force him to act in certain ways.

Much love!
Somehow my computer got messed up so if I already answered this I apologize.
The important issue here is to understand the Biblical view of salvation. You and I are discussing Paul's assertion that God causes all things to work for the good of those whom God called according to his purpose.

One need only ask how that can be. How can God cause ALL things?

I will leave it as an open question if you like.
 

CadyandZoe

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This is answered here,

John 1:11-13 KJV
11) He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Believing the Gospel is a command, and to believe is to obey.

You must receive Jesus.

Your view then is that you receive Jesus if God wrote your story that way, and if He didn't, you will not. Regardless of His righteous commandment.
No, not regardless of His righteous commandment; In view of his righteous commandment.
When I received Jesus, I heard the call and I obeyed. Both the call and the obedience were present. God determined both the call and the obedience. Both the call and the obedience are written in the story.

So then God commands all to repent and believe, but has actually pre-installed under the floorboards those who will, and those who will not. Pre-programmed disobedience to a commandment that never could be obeyed, not because you chose to disobey, but because it was chosen for you to be disobedient.
Writing a story is not the same thing as programing a computer. God's call to repent is part of the story just as much as those who repent or refuse to repent.
I don't see another way to look at that view than to think that God through creation communicated disobedience into man, and through commandment communicated obedience, except creation wins out over the commandment, and God instructs righteousness from those whom He created to not be righteous.
In order to see it another way, one must come to grips with God's transcendent nature. And the only thing in reality that is similar to God's transcendence is the author's transcendence over the characters in his novel. If I wrote a story about a couple getting engaged, not only would I write that the man proposed to his lover, but that he got down on his knees, showed her the ring, and I would describe the look on her face. The entire story is in my hands: the man's love, the woman's love, the ring, the knee, the venue, everything. Authors don't program responses, they simply write them.
It makes God self-contradictory to me, acting contrary to His statements, what we'd call an hypocrit. God is honest, and I take Him at face value. If He tells me I have to choose, then I realize that I have a choice to make.

Much love!
Remember, his statements are also part of the story; They come in the form of an oracle or a theophany. His oracles and our responses to them are all part of the story.
 

marks

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God is not sinful for writing a story that has sin in it, is he?
Writing a story with sin in it? That sounds like the sanitized version. Either it was Adam who decided to commit sin, or God that decided Adam would commit sin.

God is not the author of sin. If He were, yes, that would be sinful, and He would not be God.

Much love!
 
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CadyandZoe

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Just by saying so?

My real objection is that God presents the Gospel to us as a choice, an act of obedience or disobedience. He holds us responsible for our choice. He urges us to make the right choice. He warns us against the wrong choice.

Determinism makes that all to be show, just pre-programmed actors acting out their parts. And all this about choosing becomes dishonest.

These views are in direct conflict. You cannot have both to be true.

Much love!
What you describe is not transcendence. The assumption of your objection is that both actor and audience are conceptually the same. But in reality and using your analogy of the play, God is neither the actor nor the audience. God is the playwright. The playwright decides the situation, the conditions, the actions, and the speech of the characters. The playwright decides what is said and what is done. All of it.

God is a transcendent creator, which is why Paul can write that God causes ALL things to work for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose.
 

CadyandZoe

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he is willing that ALL should repent..He died for the WORLD (ALL)
Yes, his expressed will is that all should repent. Nonetheless, Paul argues that God chooses whom to save. He also argues that God's choice is based neither on the will of man nor on the actions of man. (Romans 9:16) My choice to repent directly reflects God's prior choice to save me. The order of salvation is this. First God chooses me, then I choose God.
 

CadyandZoe

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Writing a story with sin in it? That sounds like the sanitized version. Either it was Adam who decided to commit sin, or God that decided Adam would commit sin.
It's both.
God is not the author of sin. If He were, yes, that would be sinful, and He would not be God.

Much love!
John said that God is the author of everything.
 

Eternally Grateful

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Yes, his expressed will is that all should repent. Nonetheless, Paul argues that God chooses whom to save. He also argues that God's choice is based neither on the will of man nor on the actions of man. (Romans 9:16) My choice to repent directly reflects God's prior choice to save me. The order of salvation is this. First God chooses me, then I choose God.
But Jesus himself said it is the will of God that whoever sees and believes will have eternal life (John 6)

God chose to save whomever would call upon him..
 

marks

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What you describe is not transcendence. The assumption of your objection is that both actor and audience are conceptually the same. But in reality and using your analogy of the play, God is neither the actor nor the audience.
I'm not using the analogy of a writer of stories. I don't think it fits.

My objection is that God does not initiate sin. I do not foresee moving from that position. As I see it, the problem with your position is that God does initiate sin, having set into this world a man, Adam, who had no choice except to sin, because his Creator made it so.

Much love!
 

Scott Downey

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Writing a story with sin in it? That sounds like the sanitized version. Either it was Adam who decided to commit sin, or God that decided Adam would commit sin.

God is not the author of sin. If He were, yes, that would be sinful, and He would not be God.

Much love!
Everyone born is an unsaved sinner. So start with the proper perspective on sin.
Born into the natural world, you are a natural creature, you sin. God does not have to be the author of sin, people sin because they are natural born sinners, outside of the Spirit of God and lost. If you believe that people are born and do not sin, and are naturally saved, then loose it when they consciously sin, you then believe salvation can be lost. But Christ does this,
Hebrews 7:25
Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.