Is the Gift of Salvation nullified by the consequences of refusal?

[mailmandan]

Sure...we'll see where obedience gets people and where disobedience gets people.

Refusing to believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16; 10:16) and seeking salvation based on works (even if its only in part) is not obedience. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Not one verse anywhere in the NT teaches that failh alone, that is, faith apart from obedience to God, saves...not one verse.

Unbelievably Amazing, etb and I agree on ONE thing, at least "Not faith alone," but,
then we Disagree, about "the UNdispensational obedience" part - question?:

ETB, have you "sold ALL" [ humble Christ, #'s 6 & 7 below... ] yet? Or, is it "Not faith alone,"
But ↓?:

"By Grace Are ye Saved Through faith..." [ Glorified Christ / Mystery # 3 below... ]

------------------------------------------------
How to receive God's Eternal Salvation (Be Saved), by believing What God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided, Teaches About This Important Matter Of sinful man's Eternal Welfare? - ie:

Humble Christ, on the earth, To Israel, 12 apostles, Under The Law/covenants/Prophecy:

1) Repent (change mind about sin/agree With God "it is Wrong!") or perish

(Luk 13:3,5 Mar 1:4 Luk_3:3, 24:47}​

+
2) believe the gospel of the kingdom (Mat 4:23, 9:35, 24:14; Mar 1:14,15)
+
3) be baptized "For the remission of sin" (Mar 1:4 Luk_3:3, 24:47; Act 2:38)
+
4) "show works meet for repentance" (Mat 3:8), because,
+
5) "to the twelve tribes of Israel," "faith Without works is dead" (Jam 1:1, 2:17,26)
+
6) "keep the commandments" to "enter life" (Mat 19:17)
+
7) "one thing thou lackest...sell ALL/take up cross/follow Jesus" (Mar 10:17-23):

earthly prophecy/LAW/covenants ( Previous dispensation of God... )

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

Glorified Christ, From Heaven, To ONE apostle and His 'ONE Body,' Under Grace / Mystery
( Current Dispensation of God ):

1) Repent (change mind about sin/agree With God "it is Wrong!"):

"Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, ↑ repentance toward God,​

and ↓ faith toward our LORD Jesus Christ." (Acts 20:21)​

2) believe (with ALL the heart, trust, place 100% faith in) The Gospel Of The Grace Of God:

"For I delivered unto you first of all That Which I also received, how That​

Christ Died * for our sins According To The Scriptures; And That He Was​

Buried, and that He Rose Again the third day According To The Scriptures" ​

(1 Corinthians 15:3-4)​

3) "By Grace Are ye Saved Through faith..."

Plus Nothing!:

"...and That not of yourselves: It Is The Gift Of God: Not​

of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)​

Plus Nothing, Confirmed!:

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, But According To His Mercy ​

He Saved us, By The Washing of Regeneration, and Renewing of The Holy Ghost"​

(Titus 3:5)​

Plus Nothing, Further Confirmed!:

"Who Hath Saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our​

works, but According To His Own Purpose And Grace, Which Was Given us​

In Christ Jesus before the world began" (2 Timothy 1:9)​

↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ The LORD Is All we need Today to Be Saved! Amen!!

Also:
Three Tenses Of God's Deliverance + God Says, good works are "for rewards [ reigning? ]"
(1 Corinthians 3:8-15)! [ * etb says salvation is by → ↑ ↑, But, God's BLOOD Is ALL-Sufficient! ]

Amen?:

Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)!

​

 

[Earburner]

Thanks for joining the discussion.
You have clearly stated the standard evangelical position on this. I am familiar.

However, when we also consider the "consequences" for not receiving the gift, we run into difficulty.
Suddenly it is no longer a gift. What went wrong?

I used to say: "Salvation is free; it costs you everything."

A similar question arises about whether it is "free". What do we do when someone "prays the prayer"?
We load them up with all sorts of expectations. Church attendance, Bible study, offerings, service...
Suddenly the gift is no longer free. What went wrong?

Bottom line: Looks like a bait and switch scam.
The way we are doing it, salvation is neither "free", nor "a gift". What went wrong?

Mark 8
[35] For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

 

[St. SteVen]

Mark 8
[35] For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

I'm guessing that is in response to my comment: "Salvation is free; it costs you everything."

Do you believe it is true that salvation is a "free gift'? (with no strings attached)

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Unbelievably Amazing, etb and I agree on ONE thing, at least "Not faith alone," but,
then we Disagree, about "the UNdispensational obedience" part - question?:

ETB, have you "sold ALL" [ humble Christ, #'s 6 & 7 below... ] yet? Or, is it "Not faith alone,"
But ↓?:

"By Grace Are ye Saved Through faith..." [ Glorified Christ / Mystery # 3 below... ]

------------------------------------------------
How to receive God's Eternal Salvation (Be Saved), by believing What God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided, Teaches About This Important Matter Of sinful man's Eternal Welfare? - ie:

Humble Christ, on the earth, To Israel, 12 apostles, Under The Law/covenants/Prophecy:

1) Repent (change mind about sin/agree With God "it is Wrong!") or perish

(Luk 13:3,5 Mar 1:4 Luk_3:3, 24:47}​

+
2) believe the gospel of the kingdom (Mat 4:23, 9:35, 24:14; Mar 1:14,15)
+
3) be baptized "For the remission of sin" (Mar 1:4 Luk_3:3, 24:47; Act 2:38)
+
4) "show works meet for repentance" (Mat 3:8), because,
+
5) "to the twelve tribes of Israel," "faith Without works is dead" (Jam 1:1, 2:17,26)
+
6) "keep the commandments" to "enter life" (Mat 19:17)
+
7) "one thing thou lackest...sell ALL/take up cross/follow Jesus" (Mar 10:17-23):

earthly prophecy/LAW/covenants ( Previous dispensation of God... )

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

Glorified Christ, From Heaven, To ONE apostle and His 'ONE Body,' Under Grace / Mystery
( Current Dispensation of God ):

1) Repent (change mind about sin/agree With God "it is Wrong!"):

"Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, ↑ repentance toward God,​

and ↓ faith toward our LORD Jesus Christ." (Acts 20:21)​

2) believe (with ALL the heart, trust, place 100% faith in) The Gospel Of The Grace Of God:

"For I delivered unto you first of all That Which I also received, how That​

Christ Died * for our sins According To The Scriptures; And That He Was​

Buried, and that He Rose Again the third day According To The Scriptures" ​

(1 Corinthians 15:3-4)​

3) "By Grace Are ye Saved Through faith..."

Plus Nothing!:

"...and That not of yourselves: It Is The Gift Of God: Not​

of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)​

Plus Nothing, Confirmed!:

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, But According To His Mercy ​

He Saved us, By The Washing of Regeneration, and Renewing of The Holy Ghost"​

(Titus 3:5)​

Plus Nothing, Further Confirmed!:

"Who Hath Saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our​

works, but According To His Own Purpose And Grace, Which Was Given us​

In Christ Jesus before the world began" (2 Timothy 1:9)​

↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ The LORD Is All we need Today to Be Saved! Amen!!

Also:
Three Tenses Of God's Deliverance + God Says, good works are "for rewards [ reigning? ]"
(1 Corinthians 3:8-15)! [ * etb says salvation is by → ↑ ↑, But, God's BLOOD Is ALL-Sufficient! ]

Amen?:

Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)!

View attachment 30565

​

It has been shown that salvation is conditional upon having faith. My point was that NT faith that saves is a faith that obeys the will of God. What has not been shown is how a faith void of obedience, that is, how disobedience to God's will saves. Hence faith alone, that being, faith void of obedience cannot save for disobedience cannot save. Therefore faith only cannot save for disboedience cannt save. You cannot find people in the NT being saved apart from obedience to God's will...NEVER find such.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Refusing to believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16; 10:16) and seeking salvation based on works (even if its only in part) is not obedience. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

You have not shown how salvation can be attained apart from obedience to God's will, that is, shown how one can be saved by being disobedient to God. Faith only is disobedience to God's will.

I have NEVER said salvation can be attained by works of merit but by obedience and obedience and works of merit are two different things. Faith onlyists continue to refuse to acknolwedge this difference leaving them in the dark about salvation.

 

[amigo de christo]

Refusing to believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16; 10:16) and seeking salvation based on works (even if its only in part) is not obedience. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

Tell that to eskipos and others who now teach even meek buddists , muslims and others will inherit the earth .
ITS ALL A LIE . This generation is BEING decieved .
Before GOD , Heaven and earth i bear record TODAY , IF ONE DOES NOT BELIEVE IN CHRIST , IF THEY REJECTED HIM
they WILL BE DAMNED . to say othewise is A LIE . This false love stuff has got to go .
WE BETTER POINT TO CHRIST , HIS GOSPEL , the VERY same gospel them apostels TOLD .
YE MUST BELIEVE . nutting else is gonna save them .
REMEMBER CORNELIOUS . He was not muslim , not buddist , he was a gentile WHO BELIEVED IN THE GOD of the JEWS
and he did many good works and alms , BUT HE TOO had to HEAR THE GOSPEL and BELIEVE IN ORDER TO BE SAVED .
REMEMBER THAT well . I am here to preach CHRIST JESUS and HIM CRUCIFIED . HE ALONE , the ONLY NAME
whereby one can be saved .

 

[GRACE ambassador]

cc: @mailmandan? Must be time to go, eh?: Romans 16:17...

 

[mailmandan]

You have not shown how salvation can be attained apart from obedience to God's will, that is, shown how one can be saved by being disobedient to God. Faith only is disobedience to God's will.

I have previously shown you that salvation is attained when we obey the gospel (Romans 10:16) by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) Choosing to believe the gospel is the act of obedience that saves.

There is a difference between doing God's will IN ORDER TO BECOME SAVED: John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

AND...

Doing God's will AFTER WE HAVE BEEN SAVED: 1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

I have NEVER said salvation can be attained by works of merit but by obedience and obedience and works of merit are two different things.

Any works that you "add" to salvation through faith would be works of merit. The saved by "these" works (works of obedience) and just not "those" works (works of merit) argument is bogus. Obedience which "follows" saving faith in Christ is works. You can't have it both ways.

Faith onlyists continue to refuse to acknolwedge this difference leaving them in the dark about salvation.

Works-salvationists remain confused about works of obedience vs. works of merit and cannot have it both ways, which leaves them in the dark about salvation. Works salvation is no salvation at all. You still don't understand the difference between faith that trusts in Christ "alone" for salvation (Romans 4:5-6) and an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" barren of works. (James 2:14)

 

[mailmandan]

Tell that to eskipos and others who now teach even meek buddists , muslims and others will inherit the earth .
ITS ALL A LIE . This generation is BEING decieved .
Before GOD , Heaven and earth i bear record TODAY , IF ONE DOES NOT BELIEVE IN CHRIST , IF THEY REJECTED HIM
they WILL BE DAMNED . to say othewise is A LIE . This false love stuff has got to go .
WE BETTER POINT TO CHRIST , HIS GOSPEL , the VERY same gospel them apostels TOLD .
YE MUST BELIEVE . nutting else is gonna save them .
REMEMBER CORNELIOUS . He was not muslim , not buddist , he was a gentile WHO BELIEVED IN THE GOD of the JEWS
and he did many good works and alms , BUT HE TOO had to HEAR THE GOSPEL and BELIEVE IN ORDER TO BE SAVED .
REMEMBER THAT well . I am here to preach CHRIST JESUS and HIM CRUCIFIED . HE ALONE , the ONLY NAME
whereby one can be saved .

It is all a lie and people who teach that nonsense about meek unbelievers in false religions inheriting the earth don't want to listen to reason. We are to preach Jesus Christ crucified, buried and risen as the Savior of all who trust in Him alone for salvation. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) Jesus is the only name whereby one can be saved. (John 10:9; 14:6; Acts 4:12)

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Any works that you "add" to salvation through faith would be works of merit. The saved by "these" works (works of obedience) and just not "those" works (works of merit) argument is bogus. Obedience which "follows" saving faith in Christ is works. You can't have it both ways.

Obedience to God is not a work of merit, thus your faith onlyism dies right here for obedience to God merits nothing. Lk 17:7-10.

I see the faith onlyists inability to provide one NT gospel example of God saving those who will not, have not obeyed His will.

 

[mailmandan]

Obedience to God is not a work of merit, thus your faith onlyism dies right here for obedience to God merits nothing. Lk 17:7-10.

I see the faith onlyists inability to provide one NT gospel example of God saving those who will not, have not obeyed His will.

Seeking salvation by works is not obedience to God's will. (John 6:28-29, 40) I have already provided multiple passages of scripture which make it clear that salvation is by faith and not by works, but you just don't have ears to hear. Now go back and read post #69 again which refutes your "faith only" propaganda.

 

[Zachariah]

This is true regardless of what people think and believe. This is natural law. This is truth. It is eternal, and it is God. If its not giving. Its simply taking.

 

[Titus]

Choosing to believe the gospel is the act of obedience that saves.

Believing only without obedient works according to Dan is obedience.
We have an example of faith alone that is without obedient works given to us by James,
James 2:24

Belief only apart from works is according to Dan, the act of obedience that saves.
Thus, the act of obedience is faith without obedience.
That's hard to swallow.

 

[ButterflyJones]

Familiar words.
"... it is by grace you have been saved... the gift of God..."

What is the nature of a "gift"?
- It's free.
- You can't earn it.
- Nothing is expected in return. (hopefully, or it isn't free)
- Consequences for refusal would make it extortion.

Here's how it might look in human terms.

Man #1: I have a free gift for you.
Man #2: Thanks, But I'm not interested.
Man #1: Not interested? I said it was free!
Man #2: I'm pretty sure there are some strings attached.
Man #1: Well, of course. But it's FREE!
Man #2: Not really, if there are strings attached.
Man #1: This is my final offer. Better take it now, or else!
Man #2: Uh... or else what?
Man #1: You will be incinerated!
Man #2: Seriously? What kind of free gift is that?

Since salvation is a gift, it should meet the criteria of a gift.
- It's free.
- You can't earn it.
- Nothing is expected in return.

If salvation fails to meet this criteria, it isn't a gift.

Romans 4:4-5 NIV
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly,
their faith is credited as righteousness.

I wouldn't think refusal is an option. God knew our names before the foundation of the world.

The natural mind cannot understand the things of God because they are foolishness to him. It takes the intercession of the Holy Spirit to change that.
Jesus said, no one comes to him unless the Father leads them. It is all connected. Refusal isn't an option.

God's grace gift is irrevocable Salvation.

Praise the Lord! All the time!

 

[St. SteVen]

Believing only without obedient works according to Dan is obedience.
We have an example of faith alone that is without obedient works given to us by James,
James 2:24

Belief only apart from works is according to Dan, the act of obedience that saves.
Thus, the act of obedience is faith without obedience.
That's hard to swallow.

May we offer you a cup of water in Jesus' name?
Would that make it easier to swallow? - LOL

Besides, you are misquoting mailmandan anyway. (bearing false witness?)
He wrote: "Choosing to believe the gospel is the act of obedience that saves."
The act. One of several acts. The specific act.

John 6:29 NIV
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

cc: @mailmandan

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I am amazed that we still after all this time have people believe God needs their help to save him, that the cross was not enough. That jesus said, I did my part. now you do yours.

When will people get out of Gods way and let him save you?

 

[Titus]

which make it clear that salvation is by faith and not by works

Dan is teaching no obedience in salvation i.e. faith only and no works(obedience)

Dan said,

Choosing to believe the gospel is the act of obedience that saves.

Dan claims belief alone without obedience(works) is the act of obedience.

Any works that you "add" to salvation through faith would be works of merit

Thus no works(obedience to Gods commandments) in Dan's salvation gospel.
Which is a contradiction because faith itself is a work, John 6:28-29,
Thus, the act of obedience is faith without obedience.
Confusion.

 

[mailmandan]

Believing only without obedient works according to Dan is obedience.

Believing only which does not result in producing obedient works at all is not saving belief in Christ and is no different than the belief of devils. (James 2:19) Works of obedience/good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic belief/faith. All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) Without faith it's impossible to please God no matter how many so-called obedient works that you attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works. (Matthew 7:21-23)

We have an example of faith alone that is without obedient works given to us by James,
James 2:24

This is an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) *Notice "says/claims" (key word) to have faith yet has no works. Can that faith saves him? That is not authentic faith but a bare profession of faith. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root.

James is not using the word "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) *Hermeneutics*

Belief only apart from works is according to Dan, the act of obedience that saves.

Belief/faith that trusts only in Christ for salvation is the act of obedience that saves. Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

So, man is saved by belief/faith "apart from the merit of works" (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) yet authentic faith does not remain alone "apart from the presence of works." (James 2:24-26)

Thus, the act of obedience is faith without obedience.
That's hard to swallow.

The actual truth is hard to swallow for works-salvationists. The act of obedience that saves is choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16; 10:16) Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works "which" follows. (Ephesians 2:10) What's hard to swallow is salvation by faith AND works when the Bible clearly says we are saved by grace through faith, NOT WORKS. (Ephesians 2:8.9) Seeking salvation by works is not obedience. Its self-righteousness motivated by pride and unbelief.

 

[mailmandan]

Dan is teaching no obedience in salvation i.e. faith only and no works(obedience)

Dan said,

Dan claims belief alone without obedience(works) is the act of obedience.

Thus no works (obedience to Gods commandments) in Dan's salvation gospel.
Which is a contradiction because faith itself is a work, John 6:28-29,
Thus, the act of obedience is faith without obedience.
Confusion.

Dan is teaching salvation by the obedient act of choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16) and multiple acts of obedience/works which follow are the fruit of salvation, but not the root of it. God imputes righteousness apart from works. (Romans 4:6) Yet Titus says otherwise.

Choosing to believe the gospel is the act of obedience that saves. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which follow. Again, seeking salvation by works is not obedience. You could never accomplish enough works to earn your way to heaven, so your so-called obedience is null and void.

Obedience to God's commandments/salvation by works is the gospel according to Titus. So, have you flawlessly obeyed ALL of God's commandments 100% of the time? I did not think so. Try again. (Romans 3:23; 6:23)

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of our salvation. Yet you trust in "water and works" for salvation instead. Obedience to God's commandments "afterwards" is not what saves us. You teach works-righteousness.

1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word - "tereo") guard, observe, watch over His commandments. This obedience results from already have come to know Him. This is the fruit of salvation but not the root of it. By making commandment keeping the root of salvation you are teaching salvation by works, which is not obedience. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

There is no contradiction here with John 6:28-29 because Jesus was not teaching that faith is just "another" work in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works, which would contradict Ephesians 2:8,9. *Note the distinction between faith and works - "saved through faith, not works." This is a play on words here by Jesus. "This is the work (singular) of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent," (vs. 28) when He answered the Jews (who were taking a legalistic approach) when they asked, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works (plural) of God?" (vs. 29) Believing is clearly not a work that merits salvation. Through believing, we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption). Through believing, Christ is the OBJECT of our complete trust in receiving salvation. Good works which "follow" believing unto salvation are the fruit of salvation, but not the root of it.

Faith that results in no obedience at all is not authentic faith and is not obedience, so your straw man argument is moot. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is evidenced by works (James 2:14-26). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-26) *Perfect Harmony*

No confusion at all, except for the natural man (1 Corinthians 2:14) who teaches salvation by works.