Is the Gift of Salvation nullified by the consequences of refusal?

[Raccoon1010]

Familiar words.
"... it is by grace you have been saved... the gift of God..."

What is the nature of a "gift"?
- It's free.
- You can't earn it.
- Nothing is expected in return. (hopefully, or it isn't free)
- Consequences for refusal would make it extortion.

Here's how it might look in human terms.

Man #1: I have a free gift for you.
Man #2: Thanks, But I'm not interested.
Man #1: Not interested? I said it was free!
Man #2: I'm pretty sure there are some strings attached.
Man #1: Well, of course. But it's FREE!
Man #2: Not really, if there are strings attached.
Man #1: This is my final offer. Better take it now, or else!
Man #2: Uh... or else what?
Man #1: You will be incinerated!
Man #2: Seriously? What kind of free gift is that?

Since salvation is a gift, it should meet the criteria of a gift.
- It's free.
- You can't earn it.
- Nothing is expected in return.

If salvation fails to meet this criteria, it isn't a gift.

Romans 4:4-5 NIV
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly,
their faith is credited as righteousness.

We are saved by grace, by Jesus the Christ without works. But Jesus requires repentance or he will judge us to death. That much is very clear from reading the scriptures. We are required to provide works meet for repentance. This factor he takes into account when judging us is re-enforced in the sheep and goats parable also.

Matthew 3:7-10​

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King James Version​

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7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

 

[St. SteVen]

If we can't see that God is right, just and fair in all that He does and says, then we have serious problems with God.

We are told that there is eternal punishment for a temporal crime. How is that right, just and fair?

This is where we begin to question any and everything through our limited knowledge and lose track of who's in charge.

Oh, yes... it's because our minds are too tiny to comprehend why God is so cruel.
What would we know about cruelty? (plenty) Who doesn't know a playground bully when they see one?

It boils down to the question: do we really trust God? If we can't trust Him, then we can't believe Him, and now you're in Satan's ballpark.

We can't trust the "God" the church has given us. The "gun to your head" gospel is obviously wrong.

 

[Charlie24]

We are told that there is eternal punishment for a temporal crime. How is that right, just and fair?

Oh, yes... it's because our minds are too tiny to comprehend why God is so cruel.
What would we know about cruelty? (plenty) Who doesn't know a playground bully when they see one?

We can't trust the "God" the church has given us. The "gun to your head" gospel is obviously wrong.

You should be searching the Scripture to find why God is always right, and why fallen man is wrong.

Until then there is not only a wedge between us, there is one between you and God.

 

[St. SteVen]

We are saved by grace, by Jesus the Christ without works. But Jesus requires repentance or he will judge us to death. That much is very clear from reading the scriptures. We are required to provide works meet for repentance. This factor he takes into account when judging us is re-enforced in the sheep and goats parable also.

Not a "free gift" then?

 

[St. SteVen]

You should be searching the Scripture to find why God is always right, and why fallen man is wrong.

Are you admitting that you are wrong? - LOL

Until then there is not only a wedge between us, there is one between you and God.

Ouch... I assure you, there is no wedge between God and I.
Only the church and I.

 

[Charlie24]

Are you admitting that you are wrong? - LOL

Ouch... I assure you, there is no wedge between God and I.
Only the church and I.

Christ laid down His life for the Church, so if you have a problem with the Church, He can fix it.

But He can't fix it if you don't trust Him. You have no excuse to continue on this path!

 

[St. SteVen]

Christ laid down His life for the Church, so if you have a problem with the Church, He can fix it.

Wait... fix the church, or fix me?

But He can't fix it if you don't trust Him.

The church? That will take a while. Probably not in my lifetime.

You have no excuse to continue on this path!

Yes, I seem to have misplaced my hall pass.

 

[Charlie24]

Wait... fix the church, or fix me?

The church? That will take a while. Probably not in my lifetime.

Yes, I seem to have misplaced my hall pass.

So instead of searching out a good Christ preaching Church, you choose to scorn the Church that Christ gave His life for.

That's pitiful! That doesn't say much for you, Steven. In fact, it's very disappointing!

 

[St. SteVen]

So instead of searching out a good Christ preaching Church, you choose to scorn the Church that Christ gave His life for.

I attend what you would call "a good Christ preaching Church". Doesn't mean I agree with everything.

That's pitiful! That doesn't say much for you, Steven. In fact, it's very disappointing!

Hope that info above changes your disappointment.
Is a guilt trip the best thing you can offer me?

 

[Charlie24]

I attend what you would call "a good Christ preaching Church". Doesn't mean I agree with everything.

Hope that info above changes your disappointment.
Is a guilt trip the best thing you can offer me?

Not a guilt trip, just wondering how a human being can think they know the end from the beginning on a level above God.

 

[St. SteVen]

If we can't see that God is right, just and fair in all that He does and says, then we have serious problems with God. This is where we begin to question any and everything through our limited knowledge and lose track of who's in charge.

It boils down to the question: do we really trust God? If we can't trust Him, then we can't believe Him, and now you're in Satan's ballpark.

Can you defend that salvation is a free gift?
Is it even a gift? Is it really free?

 

[St. SteVen]

Not a guilt trip, just wondering how a human being can think they know the end from the beginning on a level above God.

Do you not know the end from the beginning?
If not, how do you know that I am wrong?

 

[Charlie24]

Can you defend that salvation is a free gift?
Is it even a gift? Is it really free?

It's a free gift in that man cannot earn it in any way, it's impossible to attain but by His Grace through your faith!

Which makes the free gift something you don't deserve.

Otherwise it cannot be a free gift if man could earn it himself.

But we have those who insist on earning it, which makes His offer of the free gift void and of no value.

They have turned down the offer of the free gift!

 

[Raccoon1010]

Not a "free gift" then?

Jesus is clear in the bible on what is required of us to repent so that we are desirable to God as a people. People that aren't desirable to God get cast into hell.

There are places in the bible where it says "many will say to me Lord Lord, have we not cast out devils and done many miracles in your name" and Jesus cast them into hell. Those things they did were God's power to do and not their own works.

The lesson of the Pharisees is clear, they didn't love people and take care of them and do their part in life. They took money from the people and made the people serve them. They were selfish people. And then judged Jesus and said he was evil.

And the lesson of the sheep and goats as well as the rest of Jesus' teachings are also clear. If we don't do good works we get cast into hell like the Pharisees. He is judge of what and who he gives the gift of eternal life to. Don't make the mistake of thinking he is not the judge of who receives that gift and who does not.

So it's a free gift, but God will decide who gets that gift, and selfish people that don't repent of their selfishness are probably in for a rude awakening. And selfishness is the root of all sin.

Matthew 7:17-19
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New King James Version
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17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

 

[St. SteVen]

It's a free gift in that man cannot earn it in any way, it's impossible to attain but by His Grace through your faith!

Which makes the free gift something you don't deserve.

Otherwise it cannot be a free gift if man could earn it himself.

But we have those who insist on earning it, which makes His offer of the free gift void and of no value.

They have turned down the offer of the free gift!

What are the expectations on the recipient of this free gift?

If there are strings attached, it's not really a free gift, unless I am overlooking something here.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Not a "free gift" then?

Jesus is clear in the bible on what is required of us to repent so that we are desirable to God as a people.

Not a "free gift" then. Okay.

People that aren't desirable to God get cast into hell.

That seems harsh. (to say the least) There must be a better solution.
But perhaps we are misunderstanding what God wants?

What do we do with undesirables? Incinerate them, or seek to correct them?

So it's a free gift, but God will decide who gets that gift, and selfish people that don't repent of their selfishness are probably in for a rude awakening.

The free gift is not offered to everyone?
Might be a rude awakening when we find out that we are ALL selfish. Then what?

And selfishness is the root of all sin.

I thought it was 'the love of money", that is the root of all evil.

1 Timothy 6:10 NIV
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil.
Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith
and pierced themselves with many griefs.

 

[Charlie24]

What are the expectations on the recipient of this free gift?

If there are strings attached, it's not really a free gift, unless I am overlooking something here.

You must realize the "free gift" is out of reach for man, there is no way fallen man can obtain salvation without God freely giving it.

Man accepts the "free gift" by faith. Let me explain what believing/faith means.

When man hears the Gospel of Christ, which is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, and realizes he is a sinner in need of a Saviour, he must make a choice to accept or reject that message. Hearing the Gospel reaches into the heart of man, convicts him, lets him know he is a sinner. Most will reject that conviction brought on by the Holy Spirit, but some will accept it.

The one who accepts that message now realizes he is a sinner in need of a Saviour, he now believes that Christ died for his sins, which is the core message of the Gospel. Instantly the Holy Spirit comes into the heart of this person and he is born-again, he is a new creature in Christ.

The repenting takes place in the heart of man, the very moment of realizing he is a sinner.

Look at how Paul states it.

Rom. 10:9-10

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Salvation comes from a heart that believes, it has nothing to do with works.

Paul here again speaks of how we are saved.

Eph. 1:13

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"

Paul is telling us right here that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit after hearing and believing the Gospel.

 

[St. SteVen]

You must realize the "free gift" is out of reach for man, there is no way fallen man can obtain salvation without God freely giving it.

Agree. (except for the "free" part)

Man accepts the "free gift" by faith. Let me explain what believing/faith means.

By all means. Please do.

When man hears the Gospel of Christ, which is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, and realizes he is a sinner in need of a Saviour, he must make a choice to accept or reject that message. Hearing the Gospel reaches into the heart of man, convicts him, lets him know he is a sinner. Most will reject that conviction brought on by the Holy Spirit, but some will accept it.

The one who accepts that message now realizes he is a sinner in need of a Saviour, he now believes that Christ died for his sins, which is the core message of the Gospel. Instantly the Holy Spirit comes into the heart of this person and he is born-again, he is a new creature in Christ.

The repenting takes place in the heart of man, the very moment of realizing he is a sinner.

Well said. Thanks.
I am very familiar with evangelical apologetics.
(imagine how a Catholic would answer this question)

Your well-stated explanation above assumes that everyone has heard this evangelical gospel.
Is that true?

Can anyone come to God unless the Spirit draws them?
Do you view those who ARE drawn to be predestined? The Elect?
If so, then everyone that was not drawn by the Spirit was predestined to destruction, correct?
Am I misunderstanding the situation humankind is in? (according to evangelicalism)

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We haven't really addressed my question.

St. SteVen said:
What are the expectations on the recipient of this free gift?
If there are strings attached, it's not really a free gift, unless I am overlooking something here.

 

[Charlie24]

Agree. (except for the "free" part)

By all means. Please do.

Well said. Thanks.
I am very familiar with evangelical apologetics.
(imagine how a Catholic would answer this question)

Your well-stated explanation above assumes that everyone has heard this evangelical gospel.
Is that true?

Can anyone come to God unless the Spirit draws them?
Do you view those who ARE drawn to be predestined? The Elect?
If so, then everyone that was not drawn by the Spirit was predestined to destruction, correct?
Am I misunderstanding the situation humankind is in? (according to evangelicalism)

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We haven't really addressed my question.

St. SteVen said:
What are the expectations on the recipient of this free gift?
If there are strings attached, it's not really a free gift, unless I am overlooking something here.

You remind me of an Atheist trying his best to prove the Scripture incorrect, I'm serious!

Salvation is not based on expectations, Steven! It's based totally on faith!

What you're not understanding is the difference between justification and sanctification.

We are justified by faith, and that faith proves itself in our sanctification, which involves works.

The two must be seen separately, if not, you have the ingredients of faith+works=salvation.

This is when Grace is pulled off the table and man is judged on his performance rather that Christs' performance through faith.

 

[St. SteVen]

You remind me of an Atheist trying his best to prove the Scripture incorrect, I'm serious!

As @stunnedbygrace pointed out, you're coming off as the "bad guy" here.
A reader's take on the exchange between us. I know you're not a bad guy, but I see how others might view this.

That being said, I'm being forced into a Theistic Agnosticism, or even Theistic Atheism by the church.
A church that will not hear another view of these things. I believe in God, but not the "God" the church is proclaiming.

You are acting as a representative of the church, I don't fault you for that. Five years ago, I might have done the same thing.
So, how could I find fault with your loving attempts to correct me? I have nothing but respect and appreciation. (hugs)

Salvation is not based on expectations, Steven! It's based totally on faith!

I would say that salvation is based on the finished work of Christ on our behalf.
Nothing to do with us, ultimately.

What you're not understanding is the difference between justification and sanctification.

Pretty sure I do. Let me try.
Our justification is based on the finished work of Christ on our behalf.
Sanctification is the process whereby we are set apart for God, to do His will and grow in Him.
How did I do?

We are justified by faith, and that faith proves itself in our sanctification, which involves works.

The two must be seen separately, if not, you have the ingredients of faith+works=salvation.

Right. I agree.

This is when Grace is pulled off the table and man is judged on his performance rather that Christs' performance through faith.

What do you make of this?

Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.