I've been seeing commercials about a TV broadcast of a new docudrama about Jesus. In the commercial they show a bit of a scene where the actor portraying Jesus is speaking to a crowd about the kingdom of heaven, but the words coming out of his mouth are statements contrary to what the gospels declare he taught. Do you think that this is the direct work of the anti-Christ, attempting to portray a different Jesus than the historical one to the biblically illiterate? Inquiring minds would like to know. BTW, this is a show being aired on a Nat Geo channel.
Is the antichrist already attempting to "change law"?
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You do realize that the antichrist is a man. I'm actually inclined to believe that the movement to legitimize "gay" marriage and criminalize religious language that abhors it comes from the same source, but let me ask you, why you wouldn't consider this to be the work of the anti-Christ? This can't be much of a discussion without scripturally based reasons and answers.StanJ said:
The ten horns are ten kings who shall arise from this kingdom. And another shall rise after them; he shall be different from the first ones, and shall subdue three kings. He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, shall persecute the saints of the Most High, and shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand for a time and times and half a time. `But the court shall be seated, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and destroy it forever. Daniel 7:24-26
Your OP was specific and I answered it as such. IMO the anti-Christ does not exist right now although there are for sure anti-christs that have existed and will continue to manifest themselves. I also don't believe that Dan 7 will happen before Jesus returns.Michael V Pardo said:
I'm not just trying to be argumentative, but there is absolutely no way of knowing that the anti-Christ isn't already working his plans out, but there is plenty of evidence to suggest that he might be. The scripture only speaks of the man of sin being revealed, that is, it addresses the time when we will know him for what he is (or possibly he will be on display for the whole planet when he rises to power, but this may already be in process and without that revelation of his person we would never know.)StanJ said:
With regard to Daniel 7, are you suggesting that there will be open warfare in the millennial kingdom or that the saints living in the millennial kingdom will be overcome by the anti-Christ? I'm pretty sure that there is no scriptural support for such a notion, and my bible suggests that when Christ returns, He will gather together His elect and bring judgment upon all those who have opposed Him. If you think that he's coming back twice, that's a different story and one that I wouldn't bother to entertain.
I'm saying Dan 7 is not being realized at this time nor is it likely to be realized in my time. I can't really be concerned about it outside my time. That the devil is at work in our world is a given and has been since Gen 1:1, but the anti-Christ is not alive at this point in time.Michael V Pardo said:
I agree this is NOT the time for The Antichrist to come to pass. Still way too much time to go through for conditions to be right for that.
There are many antichrists but no Antichrist.
Honestly I think the whole use of time spent on trying to deduce then end, when the King said we'd not know, only plays into the hands of the enemy.
But then many things that Christians do that bolsters the enemy.
There are many antichrists but no Antichrist.
Honestly I think the whole use of time spent on trying to deduce then end, when the King said we'd not know, only plays into the hands of the enemy.
But then many things that Christians do that bolsters the enemy.
I disagree with both you and Stan on the significant point of the antichrist's existence and I think its absurd to insist that he isn't in play when there is no way to know prior to his revelation. If He weren't alive and working his plans, it would be unlikely that the Lord would be prompting me and others to raise the consciousness of a sleeping church toward the coming dangers, and there is absolutely no reason for the adversary to include awareness of his coming to the church. I don't think that you and Stan are fully cognizant of the state of the worlds affairs, but there is a natural tendency for people to avoid facing or dealing with troubling situations and we are far more inclined to deny the existence of impending disaster than to acknowledge it and prepare.pom2014 said:
Since the anti-Christ will be a man fulfilling the devil's agenda to create a pseudo heavenly kingdom, a utopia on earth, we can assume that the agenda itself has already been in place for at least 2000 years. It's even likely that the anti-Christ will be completely unaware of who he is in regard to the revealed plan of God; The scripture says that he will seat himself in God's temple (which could actually refer to the church) and see himself as god. This suggests that he has no belief in the God of scripture, and if that's the case, there's no reason for him to believe in the devil either. Unfortunately the general population has had their heads filled with Hollywood's fanciful images of the anti-Christ which are probably about as far from reality as your average fairy tale.
As Christians we're actually supposed to be looking for Christ's return, not for the rising of the anti-Christ, but there is a reason that the anti-Christ is spoken of in scripture and I don't believe that such verses exist for the benefit of 144,000 Jewish evangelists. How will millions of Christians survive in a world where you can't buy or sell without taking the mark of the beast? I know that God is our provider and will keep His promises to do so, but short of dropping manna from the sky, His provision is more commonly through the agency of people so it seems more sensible that those within His body would be the ones preparing in advance to help one another when the necessity arrives. If you have some legitimate proof or argument that Christ's return isn't imminent and that the anti-Christ can't possibly be alive and working his corrupted plans out already, then you should present it rather than make unfounded assertions. I mean, I can say that its day in the middle of the night, but reality bears witness to the opposite.
Consider this, in a sense, the Roman empire never really disappeared. The largest "Christian" church on the planet was founded in the heart of the Roman empire and modeled its hierarchy on the imperial hierarchy of Rome, even adopting some of the ritual practices and apparel of the empire. The members of one of the largest organized crime "associations," many of which have also been loosely members of that same church, modeled their criminal organizations' hierarchy upon the Roman's military hierarchy. Some time after emperor Constantine made Christianity the state religion of Rome, the remnants of the Roman empire became what is known as the holy Roman empire and I know that there are still monarchies in existence that have descended from that same empire. What actual events will coalesce and empower those remnants isn't revealed in scripture, but post WWII Europe certainly started to take on the shape of alliances which affect the entire world. The dissolution of the Soviet republic created situations which renewed old hostilities and old alliances as well. Now the entire world is facing threats from organized terrorism in the form of radical Islam, which aligns itself with nuclear powers that share common enemies (us), as well as the looming possibility of a world wide failure of the energy infrastructure as the world's energy production is already on the decline with the cost of exploitation of resources becoming prohibitive with respect to their use. No one who is aware of the facts believes that the current world wide economic system will ever recover to where it was when most prosperous, but the optimists among them can still foresee a world in which people still have food, clothing, and shelter. The question is, how will they obtain them and at what cost?
Its difficult for people that are born and raised in the USA to comprehend the poverty, need, and want of the rest of the world, and few of us appreciate the tremendous wealth we've lived in for our short history, certainly exceeding that of ancient Babylon within the last century. The poorest among us in the north east still have availability to such public assistance as to be able to purchase SUVs and vans to transport their families, foods of every variety upon the earth, clothing manufactured around the world, even computing resources for their children's use in school. I've never passed the borders of the USA except for a few hours site seeing on the Canadian side of Niagara falls, but I've seen what missionaries have captured on video and with cameras, I've seen what little the media is willing to present us of conditions abroad, and I've spoken with people from various nations around the globe, and we are viewed with envy, desire, and fear by most of the world. We've waged war continuously longer than any other nation in our time and on our planet. We've toppled governments to suit our own economic needs and agendas. We've bombed nations in the middle east nearly back into the stone age (not so far of a leap in those areas though) for revenge in the public's eye and control over valuable resources in the government's eyes. I know that many consider it patriotic to view our nation and its people as exceptional, but much of that is just deluded elitism bolstered by the fact that God blessed us as a people when we as a people acknowledged His sovereignty. Nebuchadnezzar made the mistake of believing that he was responsible for the wealth and success of Babylon, but acknowledged the truth after heaven gave him over to live like a beast as a judgment for his arrogance. He was restored and Babylon had its short period of glory as a center of world authority, but was overthrown in a night while there were many of God's saints still residing there. Who is so foolish as to believe that God has changed?
Your dismissive tone and inability to support your views through properly exegeted scriptures begs that I bow out of this discussion. You'll find out in God's time.
@Michael
What is going on in the world that signals the end?
We're in a global golden age.
Literacy is higher than ever.
Food is more readily available to more people than ever in history.
There are no devastating plagues that are reducing populations to less then 40%.
Economically there is access to more capital per person than ever before.
Medication and health care also per capital is the highest it's ever been.
There have been no global struggles in over six decades.
More people have access to freedom than ever before.
Mobility, access to safe food and water, housing and support systems for children, women and the elderly are all high.
So tell me where the problem is? Where are the earth shattering calamities? I don't see them on a global scale.
What happens in ten or twenty nations on the planet is not an indicator things have gone awry.
So tell me on a global scale what is the evidence?
What is going on in the world that signals the end?
We're in a global golden age.
Literacy is higher than ever.
Food is more readily available to more people than ever in history.
There are no devastating plagues that are reducing populations to less then 40%.
Economically there is access to more capital per person than ever before.
Medication and health care also per capital is the highest it's ever been.
There have been no global struggles in over six decades.
More people have access to freedom than ever before.
Mobility, access to safe food and water, housing and support systems for children, women and the elderly are all high.
So tell me where the problem is? Where are the earth shattering calamities? I don't see them on a global scale.
What happens in ten or twenty nations on the planet is not an indicator things have gone awry.
So tell me on a global scale what is the evidence?
How does one exegete scripture about events which haven't occurred? And what do you believe to be proper exegesis especially when it comes to symbolic writing such as that in Daniel? I would say that you've been the one who's been dismissive, simply stating that Daniel 7 is not in play without giving a single reason for your assertion and I say assertion because you haven't presented anything like a biblical or even a rational argument for your point of view. The trouble is, when discussing things occurring in real time, we do not have historical text, nor can we prove that anything prophetic has to occur the way that we imagine it will. The most informed analysis of prophetic events that have not yet happened is still no more than an educated guess, and if the Lord's spirit is telling you nothing with regard to the times, then you clearly have nothing to offer here anyway. (now that's dismissive.)StanJ said:
Just the point, they HAVE NOT occurred. So you agree and still want to argue what point? Being dismissive in the way you used it and dismissing/refuting your points like I did, are not quite the same thing.Michael V Pardo said:
BTW, I don't support "American Exceptionalism" at all, but that isn't the OP now is it?
Stan, you seem to have a little difficulty expressing yourself.StanJ said:
What has not occurred? Are you suggesting that the anti-Christ will be born full grown during what people refer to as the 7 year tribulation (if such a thing is accurate)? Are you suggesting that the ten kings spoken of in Revelation will announce who they are so that every crackpot Christian with a gun can go looking to take them out? What exactly are you trying to say if anything other than "I disagree?" If my questions seem absurd to you, perhaps that's because you've provided no (that's 0) information toward the discussion. There's a rather sharp analyst and author by the name of Joel Rosenberg who provides a great deal of documentation on what appears to be going on with respect to the fulfillment of prophesy. I don't know if I believe everything that he has proposed, but God has always shown His hand in world events by revealing things before they happen, and normally through His saints. By the way, you haven't refuted anything at all that I've said in an intellectual sense, because that actually requires an argument of some form, any form, but an actual argument.
Well, do you really want me to gather and present statistics about volcanic eruptions, so called "super storms," high magnitude earthquakes, changes in the solar radiation reaching the earth, warfare occurring around the globe, the disappearance of entire populations of isolated societies (through genocide and forced displacement), the percentages of people living in abject poverty globally, etc.pom2014 said:
Man, if you watch the new you'll get a hint of it, even though that tends to be highly filtered information. How much chaos does there have to be for you to consider it abnormal?
To be honest, presenting the evidence that you're requesting would require an entire website, not a few paragraphs in a discussion forum, but I think that 2015 will probably provide some evidences for you and I sincerely hope that I'm mistaken. No one wants to be the bearer of bad news. Actually, things are happening so fast now that its impossible to have accurate statistics for everything, and statistics are all about sampling methods. Currently most statistical data comes from polling and data sources derived from technologies that much of the world doesn't even possess. For example, if we want to find out how many people are dying from starvation or murder on the African continent, who would report that information and how would they arrive at the head counts. The numbers that are reported are staggering in some nations, but mostly unknown. The same is true for the middle east.
You mention some things above which aren't quite accurate. For example, the conflict in Korea with the Chinese didn't involve all the world in combat, but it did have global ramifications, as did the conflict in Viet-nam, and in Afghanistan, and in Kuwait, and Iraq. The same is true of the smaller conflicts in Somalia and eastern Europe. In a worldwide economy, the shifting of resources and marketplaces affects everyone. In 1962 we weren't at war, yet the earth came a decision away from a global nuclear conflict. I was a child at the time and don't remember anything except people being frightened, did you live through that?
Are you sure that there are no pandemics in progress? I keep seeing stories about new viruses appearing every few months (I saw one today that only currently affects dogs and its rare for viruses to jump species, but the nastiest pandemics are generally of that type.)
It really seems that our information sources are radically different, so I wonder where do you get yours? From the government? The internet? Where does your confidence come from? I've seen similar assertions before, but I've never really been provided with a reliable reference to check the facts (I hope they aren't from Wikipedia). I tend to trust eyewitness accounts and what might be called hear say in an evidentiary proceeding, but that's exactly what my faith is based upon (I'm not 2000 years old and to my knowledge there are no living witnesses to the resurrection.)
I don't know where you get your stats but we have no more earthquakes than historically before now.
We've had no world war that is involving hundreds of thousands of deaths.
There been no millions killed in genocides.
No mass extinction of human life on the scale of the black death.
More people per capita lived in poverty between ancient times and the 19th century and now.
There were less freedoms in times prior to the 20th century compared to now.
So unless you can point me to some peer reviewed analysis that can corroborate your assertion I can't see how this modern era compares to anything like the times prior to the 19th century.
If we stack up just the middle ages alone, this is heaven on earth. They would think that was the end times more than now.
Historically I can't see it.
Now I will admit if you're a wasp of the united states it is horrific from the glory days of 1948.
We've had no world war that is involving hundreds of thousands of deaths.
There been no millions killed in genocides.
No mass extinction of human life on the scale of the black death.
More people per capita lived in poverty between ancient times and the 19th century and now.
There were less freedoms in times prior to the 20th century compared to now.
So unless you can point me to some peer reviewed analysis that can corroborate your assertion I can't see how this modern era compares to anything like the times prior to the 19th century.
If we stack up just the middle ages alone, this is heaven on earth. They would think that was the end times more than now.
Historically I can't see it.
Now I will admit if you're a wasp of the united states it is horrific from the glory days of 1948.
I don't, but I also don't like repeating myself constantly. I agreed with you saying "events haven't occurred". You seem to be off on another tangent now. I said what I meant to say up to that point and IF you don't get it I'm not going to try and continually explain it. Not my calling or gift.Michael V Pardo said:
I've heard all kinds of opinion over the past 44 years since I was first saved and it's all the same guessing but updated. It really does NOT matter to those who are prepared.
Rev says any who read it will be blessed, so read it and receive the blessings as I do. I'm not going to belabour the point.
You not agreeing with me doesn't mean I haven't refuted you, it just means you don't see it.
refutation requires argument and where have you presented one? BTW, I've read the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ at least a dozen times and I'd be lying if I said that I understood it all, but I've been blessed by it and specifically in being able to recognize the times and the seasons. Its also how I was shown that the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is a fabrication, but that's another story.StanJ said:
I've addressed ALL your posts in this thread, and as much of it was opining and NOT scripture, I gave my opinion of your POV. Now if you want to actually use scripture then please do so without the onerous verboseness and I'll address it in like manner.Michael V Pardo said:
I've read it much more than a dozen times and yes it is still hard to put in proper perspective, but we're not promised total understanding, just blessings.
You can choose, to either opine or exegete, and you'll receive the same in kind.
Sorry Stan, but saying that you disagree or asserting that something in one of the books hasn't happened contributes nothing to a conversation about what is in the process of happening or may happen in the near future. You can't exegete what hasn't happened. Since when was the purpose of this forum simply the exegesis of scripture? That in itself defeats the purpose of prophetic scripture, or perhaps you believe that the Lord reveals future events to us just as proof that He was indeed responsible for the prophecy in the first place after it occurs.StanJ said:
The body of Christ isn't upon the earth just to watch events unfold, though recognizing them for what they are will always strengthen the faith of biblical believers, but according to the scripture, the saints will have an active part in opposing the anti-Christ. If we were to just sit on our hands or gather in holy huddles waiting for a rapture which isn't going to come until Christ returns for judgment, when the laws are changed and people are forced to submit to the anti-Christ, all we would be able to do is starve or go into captivity and eventual execution.
Consider for a moment the Lord's judgments against Jerusalem prior to the Babylonian captivity, this is what the Lord said through His prophet Jeremiah:
1. Then the Lord said to me, "Though Moses and Samuel stood before Me, yet My mind could not be favorable toward this people. Cast them out of My sight, and let them go forth.
2. "And it shall be, if they say to you, `Where should we go?' then you shall tell them, `Thus says the Lord: "Such as are for death, to death; and such as are for the sword, to the sword; and such as are for the famine, to the famine; and such as are for the captivity, to the captivity.'' '
3. "And I will appoint over them four forms of destruction,'' says the Lord: "the sword to slay, the dogs to drag, the birds of the heavens and the beasts of the earth to devour and destroy.
4. "I will hand them over to trouble, to all kingdoms of the earth, because of Manasseh the son of Hezekiah, king of Judah, for what he did in Jerusalem.
5. "For who will have pity on you, O Jerusalem? Or who will bemoan you? Or who will turn aside to ask how you are doing?
6. You have forsaken Me,'' says the Lord, "You have gone backward. Therefore I will stretch out My hand against you and destroy you; I am weary of relenting!
7. And I will winnow them with a winnowing fan in the gates of the land; I will bereave them of children; I will destroy My people, since they do not return from their ways. Jeremiah 15:1-7
Now we know that these prophetic words were fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar's armies, but does this mean that they have no further application? Isn't the scripture given to us as a warning of what will befall the church (or each one of us individually) if we persist in sin and rebellion against God? The Lord judged the nation of Israel with the various captivities, first the northern tribes and then Judah with Jerusalem. He promised as much to the nations as well:
27. "Therefore you shall say to them, `Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: "Drink, be drunk, and vomit! Fall and rise no more, because of the sword which I will send among you.'' '
28. "And it shall be, if they refuse to take the cup from your hand to drink, then you shall say to them, `Thus says the Lord of hosts: "You shall certainly drink!
29. "For behold, I begin to bring calamity on the city which is called by My name, and should you be utterly unpunished? You shall not be unpunished, for I will call for a sword on all the inhabitants of the earth,'' says the Lord of hosts.'
30. "Therefore prophesy against them all these words, and say to them: `The Lord will roar from on high, and utter His voice from His holy habitation; He will roar mightily against His fold. He will give a shout, as those who tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.
31. A noise will come to the ends of the earth for the Lord has a controversy with the nations; He will plead His case with all flesh. He will give those who are wicked to the sword,' says the Lord.'' Jeremiah 25:27-31
This passage has a partial fulfillment in that we know some of those nations, the ones Jeremiah visited, have already disappeared from the face of the earth, but that was only the beginning of an ongoing process, clearly the sword has not done its work upon all the inhabitants of the earth, in Jeremiah's day nor in ours, but what we have seen through history with the spreading of the gospel there has also been the spreading of war, enslavement, and genocide. Jesus said it Himself:
"Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. Matthew 10:34
If you've been a born again Christian as long as you say you have, then you already know that when Christ saved us, He also recruited us for warfare. We are in a battle that will affect the souls of everyone around us for all eternity. The Apostle Paul explains:
3. For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh.
4. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,
5. casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,
6. and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled. 2 Corinthians 2:3-6
As Christians and ambassadors for Christ, we aren't meant to wage physical warfare as was done during the crusades, but the fact of the matter is that real physical warfare has been waged against Christians since the first persecutions right up to today. Thousands of Christians are being martyred in the middle east, Africa and Asia for no more reason than professing their faith in the Son of God.
Its also a fact that Christ has redeemed men from among the ranks of the world's military forces and others trained in the way of combat and warfare that have the keen desire to defend the defenseless (which is characteristic of our God.) According to such sources as "the voice of the Martyrs" there are more Christians being killed or that have been killed in the last few decades than in the prior 2000 years. I think that this is a good indication that Satan is building up to his final efforts to destroy the testimony of God and silence the Lord's witnesses, which culminates in the rise of the anti-Christ, the overcoming of the saints, and the final victory of God at Christ's return. This last statement is something that many professing Christians disagree with or are unable to accept, but can all be supported by scripture if you want to go down that road. Jesus said to His disciples,
12. "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13. "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. John 16:12-13
These words are no less true now than they were then, and what things did Jesus hold back on for our sakes and lack of maturity? Did Jesus tell His Apostles that they would all be martyred (with the exception of John)? John's gospel doesn't tell us so, but from Matthew's gospel it would appear that Jesus had already warned His Apostles about the coming destruction of the temple, if not of Jerusalem, prior to the discourse of John chapter 16. Now, if the destruction of the temple (and Jerusalem) wasn't more than they could bear, what was?
It is the power of the Holy Spirit that allows us to face trials and tribulations, persecutions and martyrdoms, but does our God tell us what will befall us when we are no more than children (spiritually or physically)?
We carry the gospel to people and to nations and in it, the power of God to eternal salvation, but the other side of that sword is eternal condemnation and destruction from the Lord to those who reject Him. Do you consider that when you share the gospel?
I can't take lightly the rejection of the gospel when it passes through my lips, but I can't take lightly the truth that the gospel is God's choice for deliverance and salvation and people must hear it in order to be saved.
I'm moving a bit away from the opening post, but if you or our ostrich would like to comment on anything from this post, I'll give opportunity now and continue developing my scriptural support from there.
Michael the only thing you've done here is quote scripture as you've done numerous times before in this thread, but with NO exegesis. You're now going in circles.
The gospel is NOT the OT, the gospel is the Good News of Jesus Christ and the antithesis to Jesus Christ has NOT been revealed.
The Holy Spirit does guide us into all truth, but if the truth is not in line with the written word then it is not the Holy Spirit doing the guiding. It doesn't take the length you put into your posts to make a point, and IMO all the verboseness just obfuscates the issue. You can assert and spout conjecture all you want, but nobody knows the hour or the day, not even Jesus. Matt 24:36
The gospel is NOT the OT, the gospel is the Good News of Jesus Christ and the antithesis to Jesus Christ has NOT been revealed.
The Holy Spirit does guide us into all truth, but if the truth is not in line with the written word then it is not the Holy Spirit doing the guiding. It doesn't take the length you put into your posts to make a point, and IMO all the verboseness just obfuscates the issue. You can assert and spout conjecture all you want, but nobody knows the hour or the day, not even Jesus. Matt 24:36
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