Is Sunday the "New Covenant Sabbath"?

[post]

"Do we make void the (Old Covenant) through grace? God forbid. Yea, we establish the (Old Covenant)". - Romans 3:31 (according to your understanding)

pro tip:

Romans has more than 3 chapters



Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
(Galatians 3:21-25)​

 

[post]

All these were obligated to uphold their end of the bargain: obedience

nope. don't lie, it's breaking the 10 commandments ;)
((pro tip: commandment # 7 is not the only one of the Mosaic covenant commandments))
no such requirement.

• Genesis 9 - no requirement. no "if" in the text anywhere. God simply promises all creation never to flood the earth again
• Genesis 12 - no requirement. no "if" in the text anywhere. God simply promises all nations will be blessed through Abraham
• 2 Samuel 7 - no requirement. no "if" in the text anywhere. God simply promises to make David great, to build him a house, and to raise up his Offspring and establish His kingdom

all these speak of Christ.
but do you still say endlessly repeated ceremonial cessation of activity in the flesh doesn't speak of Christ?

iirc that was your argument why "sabbath ((KJV))" in Colossians 2 doesn't mean "sabbath" -- that it doesn't testify of Christ as a shadow of the Substance which is Him. btw, **cough** Hebrews 4 **cough**
excuse me.

interestingly, on one of the forums you were banned from, i have been talking to someone else giving exactly that spurious and totally untenable argument.
((you still giving that absolutely unsupportable justification?))

congratulations! you made a disciple!
kinda miffed i didn't get a postcard from 'the ends of the earth' but ok.

 

[post]

"Do we make void the (Old Covenant) through grace? God forbid. Yea, we establish the (Old Covenant)". - Romans 3:31 (according to your understanding)

love is the fulfillment of the law.

i in fact observe sabbath; i just don't boast in it nor devote my life to seeking to condemn people over it, and i do it as a freewill offering, not as a law -- because i believe God, and have actual rest in Him rather than a mere infinitely-repeated-yet infinitely-unprofitable, ceremonial, carnal shadow of it. for Christ has indeed appeared, therefore i advocate for His children rather than slanderously accuse them, just as He does perpetually for me in heaven at the true altar in the true day

see Psalm 110:3 in any literal interlinear version.

 

[post]

All these were obligated to uphold their end of the bargain: obedience

your statement here is demonstrably false with even the slightest research
((see previous))
but what does scripture say?

the law is not of faith: but, the man that doeth them shall live in them.
(Galatians 3:12)

whatsoever is not of faith is sin
(Romans 14:23)

if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
(Galatians 3:8)​

Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
(Galatians 3:13-14)​

pro tip:

Romans has more than 2 chapters, and the epistle to the Galatians exists​

 

[post]

it's a bit sad how easily defeatable all these arguments are with Truth
yet how ubiquitous they are
and how passionate their devotees are

 

[stunnedbygrace]

sign of the Abrahamic covenant: physical circumcision
sign of the Mosaic covenant: physical sabbath inactivity
sign of the new covenant: physical baptism ((tho some will argue the Lord's supper))

in no case does the sign supplant the reality.

Colossians 2:11, Romans 2:25-29, 1 Corinthians 7:19 & the witness of the epistle to the Galatians show that physical circumcision is nothing more than a sign and cannot avail, even can become sin if one is basing their salvation on completion of the rite.
the witness of the confrontations of the pharisees with Christ throughout the gospels, as well as the explicit commands in Romans 14 & Colossians 2 show physical sabbath observation is nothing more than a sign and avails nothing. likewise with the witness of Galatians, sabbath-observation in the flesh can be sin, a mockery of Christ, if one bases their salvation on its ceremonial keeping.
in the same way water baptism avails nothing in and of itself: Matthew 3:11, Luke 3:16, Mark 1:8, Acts 1:5, Acts 11:16 all testify of this -- for the baptism that is effective is the one that actually places us in Christ, just as 1 Corinthians 10:2 tells us all Israel was baptized into Moses, yet not all Israel is saved nor is even all Israel, "Israel" -- in fact 1 Corinthians 10:2 shows us a pattern, saying that they were baptized through the cloud and sea, demonstrating that it is a sign, that the reality is not merely carnally carrying out a right, but spiritual -- as God testifies, His word is Spirit: the flesh profits nothing ((John 6:63)) and His apostle testifies, it is the Spirit that seals us, not ritual ceremony, not H2O, not cutting of the flesh.

even if we admit the Lord's supper is the sign of the covenant in Christ's blood, then it remains merely symbolic, unable to avail. for Paul tells us we may drink judgement by taking it ((1 Corinthians 11:29, c.f.e. Proverbs 26:6)) and our Lord God Himself informs us in its instantiation the wine is His blood, the bread His flesh: clearly a symbol, not the reality.

the reality is Christ, oh friends: it is all about Christ, always

God calls sabbath a symbol Himself: Exodus 31:13, Ezekiel 20:12. in two witnesses He explicitly tells us their purpose: that Israel should know it is God who sanctifies. this is a tacit rebuke to the idea that anyone sanctifies themselves; it is by inactivity that sabbath was observed under Moses; by ceasing from one's own work ((c.f.e. Hebrews 4:10 - "whoever enters God's rest")) -- how then can specifically "nothing-doing" on certain days profit for anything? it is a remembrance and shadow, pointing at Christ's doing what neither our doing or non-doing can possibly accomplish.

in yet a third witness by the mouth of God, Hebrews 4 tells us unquestionably that ceremonial sabbath observance in the flesh is a symbolic action - as Colossians 2 again explicitly tells us for yet a 4th witness to those hard of heart and dull of hearing. for Hebrews 4 describes David saying "today" in like manner as the sabbath, and describes the Hebrews in their wandering not entering Canaan as failing to enter rest, and describes even Joshua leading them into the land, physically, as not being entering the true rest.

we must ask ourselves if we are preaching Christ or preaching ritual ceremony.
the Jews scrupulously kept ceremony, but it profited nothing.


what do you meditate on, during sabbath ((friday sundown to saturday sundown))?
do you think about how much better you are than those people who do any physical activity that day?
do you think about how you are blessed because you went to church then instead of sunday, and curse those servants who don't do as you do?
do you imagine that your obedience to the law, which cannot produce righteousness ((Galatians 2:21)), is producing righteousness?
do you thank God that He has taken away that which condemns us?
do you bless the Lord for the promise which is by faith?
do you extol Him for His great mercy and love towards us?
do you plot how to make another sabbath thread & finally "get" all those pesky Christians who won't allow you to judge them?

do you think about Jesus or about yourself? about His works or yours?
do you think about loving others or plot how to persecute and condemn them?

there is no rest, saith my God, for the wicked.

This is so phenomenally good I’m just about speechless. Thank you for it.

 

[post]

Romans 3

gotta admit,
it does make my heart glad that after years you have finally acknowledged Romans has more than 2 chapters ♥
#progress

Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
(Romans 3:20)​

 

[post]

This is so phenomenally good I’m just about speechless. Thank you for it.

aww, you make me want to actually try to write that book

**much love**

 

[Phoneman777]

I have just read that document Rerum Novarum (May 15, 1891) | LEO XIII

Nowhere do i find what you have claimed here. I have been unable to find the sourc3 document foe your 'quotes' about decretals.. Do you have a link? Your misrepresenatation of Rerum Novarum does not encourage me to accept other 'quotes' from you without having access to source documents..

My mistake, it wasn't Rerum Novarum, it was from Saint Thomas Aquinas' "Summa Theologiae". Rerum Novarum heavily promotes Natural Law (which comes from pagan Greek philosophy) and quotes authoritatively from Aquinas. The Catholic church fully agrees with his ideas on stealing from one to succor your or another's need, seeing that his philosophy is officially theirs.

As for the ten commandments, i gave you the link to the Cathechism that exposes the lie about the Church removing the Commandments..

There is no lie about the Church altering or removing the Ten Commandments. They do so explicitly in their Catechisms. The First Commandment is chopped off at the knees, the Second is gone, the Fourth is made to refer to Sunday, the Tenth is chopped into two and the part about oxen and asses (the one constitutes tools of employment and the other transportation) is gone, in agreement with Rerum Novarum's claim that according to nature's law everything is common and the one who labors for you has a right to the fruits of his labor - meaning the guy who built your car has a right to "borrow" it.

Really brother, so far it looks like your objections to the Catholic Church and the 'remnant' that remain True within her, are just smoke and mirrors..Stop following the traditions of men, and return to the Feast! If Rome is your stumbling block, then come to the Feast with Alexandria! Come with Constantinople! But come!
The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." Let the hearer say, "Come." Let the one who thirsts come forward, and the one who wants it receive the gift of life-giving water. Pax et Bonum

The church itself claims to have changed God's law:

".. .. There is no such law (to observe Sunday as a holy day) in the Bible. It is a law of the holy Catholic Church alone. The Bible says, 'Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.' The Catholic Church says: 'No. By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week.' And the entire civilized world bows down in a reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church."-T. ENRIGHT, C.S.S.R., in a lecture at Hartford, Kansas, Feb. 18, 1884.
​

You're trying to defend the indefensible, friend. The Catholic church does not observe or teach the commandments of God which the "remnant" end times church is prophesied to keep in identical manner to the primitive church. By their own words, Sunday observance is not an institution of Christ but of Catholicism, so it's impossible for her to trace her roots back to Christ. There's no getting around that, unless you can post something from Catholicism retracting her numerous claims about her authority to change God's law. CAN YOU?????

 

[stunnedbygrace]

sign of the Abrahamic covenant: physical circumcision
sign of the Mosaic covenant: physical sabbath inactivity
sign of the new covenant: physical baptism ((tho some will argue the Lord's supper))

in no case does the sign supplant the reality.

But how interesting (yes, I’ve read quite a few of your posts again this morning:) ) is it that those covenants are our order…? Circumcision of heart, stop your own working and rest in trust, receive the Holy Spirit.
This will sound juvenile but…how cool is that??! :)

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Has anyone brought up the scripture?


“Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh day shall be a holy day for you, a Sabbath of rest to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭35:2‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

So then, we’re trying to grasp the spirit of those words, because the letter kills and the Spirit brings life. Another way to say it is, whoop don’t you know the verse just went clean out of my head while I was typing, haha!

edit after a few sips of here’s another - 6 He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life.

So just as we now understand the spirit of do not murder, we should always be trying to peer past the letter (and what men insist about it) to see the spirit of the matter for our inside of cup.

So instead of listening to men who are trying to lead us wrongly back to the letter that kills, we ask, what is the Spirit saying there…?

 

[Philip James]

The Catholic church fully agrees with his ideas on stealing from one to succor your or another's need, seeing that his philosophy is officially theirs.

Again, this is a ludicrous statement. The very document you tried to reference to support this clearly says otherwise:

"Here, again, we have further proof that private ownership is in accordance with the law of nature. Truly, that which is required for the preservation of life, and for life's well-being, is produced in great abundance from the soil, but not until man has brought it into cultivation and expended upon it his solicitude and skill. Now, when man thus turns the activity of his mind and the strength of his body toward procuring the fruits of nature, by such act he makes his own that portion of nature's field which he cultivates - that portion on which he leaves, as it were, the impress of his personality; and it cannot but be just that he should possess that portion as his very own, and have a right to hold it without any one being justified in violating that right. "

(Bolding by me)

Pax et Bonum

 

[MatthewG]

So then, we’re trying to grasp the spirit of those words, because the letter kills and the Spirit brings life. Another way to say it is, whoop don’t you know the verse just went clean out of my head while I was typing, haha!

Good morning Stunnedbygrace,

The scriptures which Moses had written did indeed speak of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The letter, does kill you are right.

Jesus Christ came to fulfill all of those scriptures that Moses written about, and including the prophets of old.

Matthew 5:17 : “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
​

Here he talks about not coming to abolish the Law or the Prophets, but to fulfill them, which He had done.

Now can a person observe a Sabbath day if they choose to do it? Yes absolutely.

Romans 14:5 One person regards a certain day above the others, while someone else considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes a special day does so to the Lord;b he who eats does so to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.​

There is freedom found in these words, however some people do not like the idea of being able to be free, and have their own thoughts, and have their own decisions as it is easier for when someone comes in and tells them how to act, how to think, and what to do, however in the end this type of way just leads to sadness, disappointment, and perhaps in the end destroys their lack of trust for anyone.

Everyone is responsible for how they interact with God, in and through the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. If they wanna hold on to a Sabbath day, they can. We can share the truth that Jesus has fulfilled all of the Law and Prophets, however to infringe on another persons rights is wrong, they have the freedom.

John and his disciples tried to stop someone from casting out demons back in their day in that age, and Jesus did not condemn them for doing so, he simply told them "If anyone isn't against me, is for me, leave them alone." (Mark 9:37-40)​

edit after a few sips of here’s another - 6 He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life.

Amen, the Spirit does give life, and everything that Jesus had spoke was spirit.

NLT John 6:63 The Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing. And the very words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.​

So just as we now understand the spirit of do not murder, we should always be trying to peer past the letter (and what men insist about it) to see the spirit of the matter for our inside of cup.

Amen, agreed, that is why the Apostle Paul suggest of us examining ourselves friend. (2 Corinthians 13:5)

Hope you have a good day, thank you for reaching out and allow me to also share amongst with you

May God get the glory, he has given us another day to breathe.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Here he talks about not coming to abolish the Law or the Prophets, but to fulfill them, which He had done.

And He fulfills them in each of us too. To us who struggle with sin, it seems He moves too slow! Just as the child God promised to Abraham seemed to come too slow and his wife doubted God would ever produce the child and so tried to bring it about by her own planning/working, we most often (at least for a time) do the same concerning what we yearn for. And in doing so, men are more than willing to help us back to the letter that kills and away from radical trust that waits on God to produce the child we want to be.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

But how interesting (yes, I’ve read quite a few of your posts again this morning:) ) is it that those covenants are our order…? Circumcision of heart, stop your own working and rest in trust, receive the Holy Spirit.
This will sound juvenile but…how cool is that??! :)

You know, @post , I just saw something similar yesterday regarding the feasts. I hope I get this right because I’m still munching on it, but…of the 7 feasts, there were three that were an absolute requirement for every man. Passover, unleavened bread and Pentecost. So, the blood applied, leaven removed, giving of Holy Spirit.
I just saw us in it.

 

[BarneyFife]

When Jesus accused the Jews of being children of the devil, should we consider that to be a degree of demonization?

..
"Demonization" is a postmodern term that I barely regard as worthwhile language at all.

Jesus judges righteous judgment. Do we? I'm comfortable testifying to what the scriptures have already made plain. Beyond that, I cannot go or, at the very least, I tread very lightly. Man looks on the outward appearance. But the lord looks on the heart. We are to call sin by its right name. But the Holy Spirit must be left to perform the duty of His office. Am I speaking error?

Most of the people we converse with in our day-to-day lives are unconverted. Christ told the disciples to rejoice that their names were written in Heaven long before He told them they were yet to be converted. This is a death knell to the doctrine of eternal security.

Luke 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.




And yet, 3ABN's phone lines are jammed with Adventists who weep and lament that they have no assurance of salvation whatsoever. And, sadly, all they get for their trouble is a short list of proof texts to buoy up their spirits.

There is a disconnect between the name that we livest and that which Christ declares we art dead (Revelation 3:1). We cannot expect any fruitful result from feeding erring ones with dos and don'ts, without the transforming power of God alive in their hearts. And we cannot preach that which we do not know ourselves. How many of us Adventists will claim that they are not the object of the true and faithful Witness Who saith:

Revelation 3
15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. 20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

All of this hearkens back to the spirit of Rome, which is that we must first be made holy and undefiled so that God can dwell with and within us, as opposed to the Protestant Gospel, which is that we must allow God (for He will not break and enter) into our hearts so that we may be made undefiled and holy. Urging upon folks the necessity of obedience to God ahead of the need of heart change will avail nothing.

As much as we hate to admit it, we Adventists are humans, too. And humans are born self-righteous legalists. All along the pilgrim journey of human beings, the process of Gospel reform takes place if we will allow it.

Sanctification is the work of a lifetime. The mistake that we make is in making a great distinction between the grace and love that justifies, and that which sanctifies. There is very little difference at all. For our part, the process of sanctification is largely just the administration of justification, day after day after day. By beholding Christ we see the need for repentance and confession and the need to be more like Him. Children can understand this perfectly but we grow up and make it complicated.

Of course, this view is in incongruous juxtaposition to the doctrine of eternal security, which is nothing more than an unfortunate, extremist, counterfeit view of the proper Bible teaching of assurance of salvation which is usually argued only with prooftexts which, while usually hermeneutically sound, do more to upset eternal security adherents than to provide any real assurance of a right standing with God.

Our only assurance is in the very Everlasting Gospel itself. When properly understood, the awe of the amazing love of God in Christ is so captivating that nothing but the suffering and death of Christ Himself can be seen, and in such magnificent brilliance that eternal security pales into nothingness compared to the assurance found in the matchless charms of the Son of God.

“The apostles and prophets and holy men of old did not perfect their characters by miracles, by some wonderful and unusual demonstration; but they used the ability given them by God, trusting alone in the righteousness of Christ. And all who will use the same means may secure the same result.”

“The great day of God which is right upon us, awakens neither alarm nor rejoicing in the heart.”

“It is a solemn statement that I make to the (Adventist) church, that not one in twenty whose names are registered upon the church books are prepared to close their earthly history, and would be as verily without God and without hope in the world as the common sinner. —GCB July 1, 1900—EGW

The commandments of God and the faith of Jesus is our message.

May God bless you as you give it. :)
.
.

 

[PinSeeker]

Every one of the Ten Commandments is repeated in the New Testament, including the Sabbath commandment in Hebrews 4:9 KJV (the Greek word "Sabbatismos" which refers to the weekly Sabbath was very poorly translated as "rest" and is why Lamsa's English translation of the Peshitta renders the verse, "It is therefore the duty of the people of God to keep the Sabbath".)

So, the Ten Commandments, which includes the "spirit of the law" is God's expectation, which if we love God and our neighbor, we'll be happy to keep ;)

Absolutely agreed. However, in Hebrews 7-8, we read this (emphasis mine):

"For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God. And it was not without an oath. For those who formerly became priests were made such without an oath, but this One was made a priest with an oath by the One Who said to Him: 'The Lord has sworn and will not change His mind, "You are a priest forever."’ This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant. The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, but He holds His priesthood permanently, because He continues forever. Consequently, He is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, One Who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, a minister in the holy places, in the true tent that the Lord set up, not man. For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer. Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law. They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, 'See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain.' But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant He mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second."
[Hebrews 7:18-8:7]​

I'll just say that it is not of utmost importance that we get the day of the week exactly correct, but just that we, as God said, "(r)emember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy" (Exodus 20:8), and that we "not (neglect) to meet together, as is the habit of some, but (encourage) one another, and all the more as (we) see the Day drawing near" (Hebrews 10:25).

Grace and peace to you, Phoneman.

 

[post]

You know, @post , I just saw something similar yesterday regarding the feasts. I hope I get this right because I’m still munching on it, but…of the 7 feasts, there were three that were an absolute requirement for every man. Passover, unleavened bread and Pentecost. So, the blood applied, leaven removed, giving of Holy Spirit.
I just saw us in it.

That's beautiful
You know the days of unleavened bread include the feast of firstfruits

So passover, Christ dies for us
First fruits, He rises for us
Pentecost, He seals us with His Spirit

It's salvation :)

 

[Phoneman777]

pro tip:

Romans has more than 3 chapters



Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
(Galatians 3:21-25)​

Yes, and our spiritual propositions MUST agree with all of them. How does what you've written here change your belief that Christians are to establish the Old Covenant, as your insistence that "Old Covenant" and "law" are interchangeable?

"Do we make void the (Old Covenant) thorugh faith? God forbid. Yea, we establish the (Old Covenant)". Romans 3:31 KJV

 

[Phoneman777]

you could stop slandering me ((also a sin)) any timst

I'm tired of you accusing me of slander and I've asked you repeatedly to stop. I criticize beliefs, not those who profess them.