Is Sunday the "New Covenant Sabbath"?

[Ronald Nolette]

Nothing in my post should lead you to conclude that. Works are neither a means of gaining or losing salvation - our choices are the means by which we are saved or lost.

Our works are merely the outward evidence which demonstrates our chosen inward spiritual condition.

Nice dodge!
But you said if one doesn't keep the sabbath they are unsaved! that is a work no matter how you wish to philosophize it away.

Jesus alone saves apart from any attitude or level of works we do. Christians are designed fro good works but they are post salvation. One does not lose their salvation if they do not keep the Jewish sabbath.

 

[Phoneman777]

Nice dodge! But you said if one doesn't keep the sabbath they are unsaved!

That's ridiculous. I preach God winks at us when we break His commandments in ignorance and have said many many people who've been wrongly taught to break one or more of God's commandments will be in the kingdom because they lived up to all the light they had.

Please show me the post where I supposedly said that so we can get the entire context.

Jesus alone saves apart from any attitude or level of works we do.

I disagree with the "attitude" part because it's unBiblical. Our attitude MUST be one of humility, sorrow for sin, and repentance, according to Proverbs 28:13 KJV and the entirety of Psalms 51 KJV. Our attitude MUST be of a willingness to surrender - to say "not my will, but Thine" if we are to receive salvation in the heart.

Your description lends legitimacy to the popular idea one can recite the sinner's prayer on his knees and then get up and stubbornly continue to drink, smoke, snort and shoot drugs, fornicate, philander, intimidate, insult, oppress, hate, and still go to heaven after the Holy Spirit has undoubtedly drawn his attention to all this time and time again.

Christians are designed fro good works but they are post salvation.

Which includes keeping the Ten Commandments, unless you are prepared to tell us that the Cross has given us permission to steal, lie, fornicate, worship idols, etc. Are you?

One does not lose their salvation if they do not keep the Jewish sabbath.

There's no such thing as a "Jewish Sabbath" because the Sabbath was blessed all the way back in Eden, thousands of years before the first Jew, when the seventh day was blessed -- not blessed at Sinai which some claim and then attempt to use as "proof" for a "Sinaitic origin" -- because 2 Chronicles 17:27 KJV plainly teaches when God blesses something, it's blessed "forever" and doesn't need any booster shots like Fauci's Ouchies.

Make no mistake, when the Holy Spirit brings conviction to the Christian concerning something in his life and he turns away from God impenitently and refuses to listen, that Christian will wind up lost, according to Matthew 24:12-13 KJV.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

That's ridiculous. I preach God winks at us when we break His commandments in ignorance and have said many many people who've been wrongly taught to break one or more of God's commandments will be in the kingdom because they lived up to all the light they had.

Please show me the post where I supposedly said that so we can get the entire context.

Sorry but you said that those who say no to God will end up in the lake of fire! You also implied (as this is a thread on teh Sabbath) that those who preach agains t the church having a mandatred Saturday Sabbath are false prophets- which makes them lost biblically.

 

[Phoneman777]

Sorry but you said that those who say no to God will end up in the lake of fire!

WHERE???

You also implied (as this is a thread on teh Sabbath) that those who preach agains t the church having a mandatred Saturday Sabbath are false prophets- which makes them lost biblically.

Do you have any proof that all preachers who preach Sunday has replaced Sabbath do so ignorantly? If not, we can assume some do so deliberately, and those with Masonic ties absolutely do it deliberately because their secret society affiliations demand they accept an inverted version of Scripture.

 

[Bob Estey]

Somehow I get the idea you don't take orders from anyone, including God.

I try very hard to obey God.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

In all fairness, the gentleman who started the thread had to know he would get debate. He’s the one who started the same thread that you don’t like seeing over and over again.

And not everyone thinks Gods commands are done away with or not in force. Some just understand it differently and believe they are for the inner man and that it’s the spirit of the words that avail a man, not the letter. They can’t be expected to not at least answer if they believe Pauls meaning was that no one should judge another over sabbath days or certain foods. They have to at least answer if they believe the emphasis is wrong and doesn’t avail men. I do wish men (on both sides) would not get ugly or angry or stirred up in their flesh, but if a man truly believes this - 5 One person regards a certain day above the others, while someone else considers every day alike. Each oneshould be fully convinced in his own mind.6He who observes a special day does so to the Lord; he who eats does so to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God - then he has to answer that neither side should judge the other about this matter or try to get them to leave the convincing in their own mind that one day is holier OR that all days are holy alike.
To me, Paul couldn’t have been much clearer on this.

Anyway, my guess is that no one will answer to this, because I have never seen anyone do so when what Paul said there is brought up. What he said is condemning to BOTH sides in this matter, but neither side ever addresses it or takes it to heart. The one side just keeps being judged and condemned for seeing one day as more holy than others and the other side is judged and condemned for seeing all days alike as holy.
No one seems to like what Paul said about it even though if they did, it would garner peace and freedom.

 

[Brakelite]

Anyway, my guess is that no one will answer to this, because I have never seen anyone do so when what Paul said there is brought up. What he said is condemning to BOTH sides in this matter, but neither side ever addresses it or takes it to heart. The one side just keeps being judged and condemned for seeing one day as more holy than others and the other side is judged and condemned for seeing all days alike as holy.
No one seems to like what Paul said about it even though if they did, it would garner peace and freedom.

That section of scripture is actually irrelevant to the discussion. Sabbath was never, and isn't now, a day one has the option to consider personally of more importance than another. The 4th commandment does not offer people that option. So Paul was talking about other days... Days which are optional as to whether one observes them or not. Such as Passover. Day of Atonement. First fruits. Pentecost. Those can be observed, since Christ, spiritually, with the inner man, or by the letter, or not, if one so chooses. The weekly Sabbath is not, nor ever had been, of that nature.

 

[Brakelite]

That section of scripture is actually irrelevant to the discussion. Sabbath was never, and isn't now, a day one has the option to consider personally of more importance than another. The 4th commandment does not offer people that option. So Paul was talking about other days... Days which are optional as to whether one observes them or not. Such as Passover. Day of Atonement. First fruits. Pentecost. Those can be observed, since Christ, spiritually, with the inner man, or by the letter, or not, if one so chooses. The weekly Sabbath is not, nor ever had been, of that nature.

PS. That's precisely why Colossians 2 also bears no relevance to the weekly Sabbath... As it isn't a shadow of things to come as were they other annual feast days.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

That section of scripture is actually irrelevant to the discussion. Sabbath was never, and isn't now, a day one has the option to consider personally of more importance than another. The 4th commandment does not offer people that option. So Paul was talking about other days... Days which are optional as to whether one observes them or not. Such as Passover. Day of Atonement. First fruits. Pentecost. Those can be observed, since Christ, spiritually, with the inner man, or by the letter, or not, if one so chooses. The weekly Sabbath is not, nor ever had been, of that nature.

Well, you know by now that I disagree. I don’t disagree that the sabbath rest is not optional, I just differ in what resting and doing no work means. But I also differ from men in what circumcision truly means, and what murder means. I believe every single word is spirit and that there’s no outward law against the spirit.
I have no problem with what you believe. I don’t think you are a member of a cult. I KNOW you aren’t a cult. I know you are my brother. And Barney’s my brother and Cassandras my sister. I don’t have a single problem with any of you and when you choose to gather together. I also don’t have a single problem with anyone who chooses to gather together on a Sunday.
The only thing I have a problem with is judging one another over what they are convinced of in their heart and conscience. And I don’t have a problem with it because of myself. I have a problem with it for the sake of the men who do the judging by the outside of another’s cup. So my problem is solely over that. I don’t want to see anyone harm themselves that way.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

PS. That's precisely why Colossians 2 also breasts no relevance to the weekly Sabbath... As it isn't a shadow of things to come as were they other annual feast days.

All the law speaks about Jesus. All the prophets also speak of Jesus. If the law speaks of Jesus then I think it actually IS a shadow of He who was to come. He fulfills the law inside each of us.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

WHERE???


Do you have any proof that all preachers who preach Sunday has replaced Sabbath do so ignorantly? If not, we can assume some do so deliberately, and those with Masonic ties absolutely do it deliberately because their secret society affiliations demand they accept an inverted version of Scripture.

Well it was your post, so look it up!

Most preachers are brought up calling sunday the Lords day.

It doesn't matter for teh church has no ordained Sabbath like Israel did.

 

[Phoneman777]

I try very hard to obey God.

So glad to hear that, bro! When Satan's temptations cease to appear as irresistible delights and appear as what they truly are -- fresh nails for His hand and feet (Hebrews 6:6 KJV) -- it's easy to resist them.

To those who truly love Him, "His commandments are not grievous" (1 John 5:3 KJV), and for those who argue it's impossible to obey God, this verse should be cause for much spiritual self-examination.

 

[Philip James]

The natural thing to do is to warn those we love of danger...which is why I share this with you. :) Please indicate which of the following statements you consider to be false, and why:

1. Since a "remnant" is identical to what was there in the beginning, the end time "remnant" church will be identical to the church Jesus founded.

Hello Phoneman,

That would, of course, include being in the community the apostles founded. No one has the authority to establish a new community and say 'here is the remnant'. The apostle John made that clear, as did Paul when he said:

And from your own group, men will come forward perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them.

2. Revelation 12:17 KJV says that this "remnant" will "keep the commandments of God".

3. Any church that does not preach and teach the commandments of God is not this "remnant".

4. Catholicism claims it changed God's commandments and by that is disqualified as the church Christ established.

The Catholic Church does not have the authority to change Divine law and never has, I reject your assertion that the Church has 'changed God's' commandments'

What do you think the difference is between the Spirit of the Law and the Letter of the Law?

Pax et Bonum

 

[Bob Estey]

So glad to hear that, bro! When Satan's temptations cease to appear as irresistible delights and appear as what they truly are -- fresh nails for His hand and feet (Hebrews 6:6 KJV) -- it's easy to resist them.

To those who truly love Him, "His commandments are not grievous" (1 John 5:3 KJV), and for those who argue it's impossible to obey God, this verse should be cause for much spiritual self-examination.

Well put. I wouldn't say it's easy yet, but I'm working on it.

 

[Phoneman777]

In all fairness, the gentleman who started the thread had to know he would get debate. He’s the one who started the same thread that you don’t like seeing over and over again.

And not everyone thinks Gods commands are done away with or not in force. Some just understand it differently and believe they are for the inner man and that it’s the spirit of the words that avail a man, not the letter. They can’t be expected to not at least answer if they believe Pauls meaning was that no one should judge another over sabbath days or certain foods. They have to at least answer if they believe the emphasis is wrong and doesn’t avail men. I do wish men (on both sides) would not get ugly or angry or stirred up in their flesh, but if a man truly believes this - 5 One person regards a certain day above the others, while someone else considers every day alike. Each oneshould be fully convinced in his own mind.6He who observes a special day does so to the Lord; he who eats does so to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God - then he has to answer that neither side should judge the other about this matter or try to get them to leave the convincing in their own mind that one day is holier OR that all days are holy alike.
To me, Paul couldn’t have been much clearer on this.

I'm a nuts and bolts kinda guy and my posts generally deal with very specific aspects of controversial issues. I, like anyone else, believe my positions are correct and that opposition to them always involves a callous disregard of the details, in which most believe the devil resides which exactly what he would have us think: because it's often where the truth is found to be hiding, under layers and layers of error.

This OP examines some very simple details: that a testament cannot be changed once the author dies, that the New Covenant (testament) was ratified by Jesus' blood on Friday, and it contains the same law which is now written on our hearts instead of just stone. Oh, many argue from a position of ignorance that "the Two replace the Ten" because they don't understand what the Gospel prophet wrote about how Jesus would come to "MAGNIFY the law and make it honorable" - for example, He magnified "adultery" as "merely looking in lust". A thing must continue to exist if it is to be magnified, but somehow "don't look in lust" makes "thou shalt not commit adultery" disappear...but only in the minds of immature Christians who, like children, are only interested in what's pleasant and not what's good for them; the Ten Commandments being "holy, just, and good". No, the Ten Commandments "stand fast forever and ever" and so does the Sabbath, which the OP proves could not have been replaced by Sunday because even if one argues Sunday keeping began resurrection morning, it's still 3 days too late to be included in the New Covenant which has "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy" written on our hearts.

 

[Phoneman777]

Hello Phoneman,

That would, of course, include being in the community the apostles founded. No one has the authority to establish a new community and say 'here is the remnant'. The apostle John made that clear, as did Paul when he said:

And from your own group, men will come forward perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them.



The Catholic Church does not have the authority to change Divine law and never has, I reject your assertion that the Church has 'changed God's' commandments'

What do you think the difference is between the Spirit of the Law and the Letter of the Law?

Pax et Bonum

“The pope has power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ.”-Decretal de Translat. Episcop. Cap.

Now, if you're a Catholic and you disagree with this official statement from the Roman Catholic church, you are in her sight a heretic. So, please, either accept this statement as true and accept that she is teaching the "commandments of men" and thus is not able to trace her roots back to Christ, or abandon her and join my commandment keeping church ;)

 

[Philip James]

“The pope has power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ.”-Decretal de Translat. Episcop. Cap.

Now, if you're a Catholic and you disagree with this official statement from the Roman Catholic church, you are in her sight a heretic. So, please, either accept this statement as true and accept that she is teaching the "commandments of men" and thus is not able to trace her roots back to Christ, or abandon her and join my commandment keeping church ;)

Interesting, looks like i have some reading to do.. In the meantime, feom the catechism.. (Bolding by me)

2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten

Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations. They are fundamentally immutable,

and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are

engraved by God in the human heart


Pax et Bonum

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I'm a nuts and bolts kinda guy and my posts generally deal with very specific aspects of controversial issues. I, like anyone else, believe my positions are correct and that opposition to them always involves a callous disregard of the details, in which most believe the devil resides which exactly what he would have us think: because it's often where the truth is found to be hiding, under layers and layers of error.

This OP examines some very simple details: that a testament cannot be changed once the author dies, that the New Covenant (testament) was ratified by Jesus' blood on Friday, and it contains the same law which is now written on our hearts instead of just stone. Oh, many argue from a position of ignorance that "the Two replace the Ten" because they don't understand what the Gospel prophet wrote about how Jesus would come to "MAGNIFY the law and make it honorable" - for example, He magnified "adultery" as "merely looking in lust". A thing must continue to exist if it is to be magnified, but somehow "don't look in lust" makes "thou shalt not commit adultery" disappear...but only in the minds of immature Christians who, like children, are only interested in what's pleasant and not what's good for them; the Ten Commandments being "holy, just, and good". No, the Ten Commandments "stand fast forever and ever" and so does the Sabbath, which the OP proves could not have been replaced by Sunday because even if one argues Sunday keeping began resurrection morning, it's still 3 days too late to be included in the New Covenant which has "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy" written on our hearts.

Well of course you believe your positions are correct. If you didn’t, you wouldn’t hold them.
I, personally, have no problem with you thinking Saturday is the most important day of the week.
As for people saying the devil is in the details, I never gave the phrase any thought but…it recalled to mind all the added details of the Pharisees in which they became so focused on every little detail that they erred greatly and insisted on pulling others into all the picky details and making them jump through all the little hoops (outwardly) that they thought were being perfect, in a militant and bossy way. It’s like…missing the forest as a whole because of focusing on each tree. Or…the gnat/camel thing. It’s a focus on what the outside of a mans cup looks like. It’s judging men by outward appearances. I also believe it’s trying to finish by your own strength what was begun by the Spirit. It’s trying to produce the promised child by your own planning and working.

The next thing it made me think of was a family member who has fits if everything isn’t done according to what she thinks is right and perfect. Her way, to her mind, is the most perfect way. But if you try to do things as she likes, she still always finds you have not done perfectly. She makes rules and then doesn’t keep them herself and you catch her in the act! But heaven help you if YOU don’t follow her rules. She’ll make you so sorry you will learn to just do as she wishes! It’s a lot like lawmakers making laws for everyone to make things better, more perfect, more ideal, and then those lawmakers breaking the rules themselves.

I guess I think it would be one thing to practice what you consider to be perfect, but is a totally different thing to argue and try to get everyone else to also do what you think is perfect.

Looking with lustful thought being adultery, and anger and unforgiveness in your heart being murder, do not make don’t cheat and don’t murder disappear. They make it even HARDER to not sin. In fact, they make it impossible for men. But until a man sees it IS impossible for him, he won’t ask God for what he lacks. He will just keep trying to be perfect and failing. And that’s a place where I got stuck for a very long time. I never went around telling others they had to do as I did because I was obeying perfectly, because I saw every one of my failures, so how could I lead anyone into perfection when I was not perfect?

If I believed an outward practicing of Saturday observance or Sunday observance or Friday observance was perfect obedience, I would do it. It wouldn’t be hard to do either. I could easily do it except for days I was very sick in bed or had a car wreck on the way. But I believe that outward obedience isn’t obedience but only fools you into thinking it is. And I believe this because of what Jesus said, which showed that outward observance of do not murder does not mean you haven’t murdered. And outward observance of don’t commit adultery doesn’t mean you haven’t committed adultery. I believe also that outward observance of a particular day as more holy does not mean you have entered His rest. In fact, I believe all the striving to be perfect is the opposite of the obedience of trust (faith) and dependence on His working in me and stopping all my working.

 

[Phoneman777]

Interesting, looks like i have some reading to do.. In the meantime, feom the catechism.. (Bolding by me)

2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten

Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations. They are fundamentally immutable,

and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are

engraved by God in the human heart


Pax et Bonum

The Ten Commandments as written by the Catholic church or the Bible?

Because the Catholic church claims to have changed the Ten Commandments! When a person decides to join the Catholic church, they are given a book to prepare for them for membership: the Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine.

Here is an excerpt from it:

Q. Which day is the Sabbath day?
A. SATURDAY is the Sabbath day.

Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea, (336 A.D.) transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.

Q. Does the church have power to institute festivals of precept? (IOW, "can she really do that???)
A. Had the church not such power, she would not have been able to do that which al modern religionists agree. She would not have been able to substitute Sunday, the first day of the week for Saturday, the seventh day of the week, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority."

Also, the Catechism of the Catholic church has completely removed the 2nd commandment which forbids bowing down to images, obviously because image worship is a key component of the Catholic faith.

Now, these are just two of many examples where the Catholic church claims to have changed or abolished the commandments of God, which I remind you are those which the end time REMNANT church keeps, and I also remind you a "remnant" of a thing is always identical to that which was there in the beginning.

 

[Phoneman777]

Well of course you believe your positions are correct. If you didn’t, you wouldn’t hold them.
I, personally, have no problem with you thinking Saturday is the most important day of the week.
As for people saying the devil is in the details, I never gave the phrase any thought but…it recalled to mind all the added details of the Pharisees in which they became so focused on every little detail that they erred greatly and insisted on pulling others into all the picky details and making them jump through all the little hoops (outwardly) that they thought were being perfect, in a militant and bossy way. It’s like…missing the forest as a whole because of focusing on each tree. Or…the gnat/camel thing. It’s a focus on what the outside of a mans cup looks like. It’s judging men by outward appearances. I also believe it’s trying to finish by your own strength what was begun by the Spirit. It’s trying to produce the promised child by your own planning and working.

The next thing it made me think of was a family member who has fits if everything isn’t done according to what she thinks is right and perfect. Her way, to her mind, is the most perfect way. But if you try to do things as she likes, she still always finds you have not done perfectly. She makes rules and then doesn’t keep them herself and you catch her in the act! But heaven help you if YOU don’t follow her rules. She’ll make you so sorry you will learn to just do as she wishes! It’s a lot like lawmakers making laws for everyone to make things better, more perfect, more ideal, and then those lawmakers breaking the rules themselves.

I guess I think it would be one thing to practice what you consider to be perfect, but is a totally different thing to argue and try to get everyone else to also do what you think is perfect.

Looking with lustful thought being adultery, and anger and unforgiveness in your heart being murder, do not make don’t cheat and don’t murder disappear. They make it even HARDER to not sin. In fact, they make it impossible for men. But until a man sees it IS impossible for him, he won’t ask God for what he lacks. He will just keep trying to be perfect and failing. And that’s a place where I got stuck for a very long time. I never went around telling others they had to do as I did because I was obeying perfectly, because I saw every one of my failures, so how could I lead anyone into perfection when I was not perfect?

If I believed an outward practicing of Saturday observance or Sunday observance or Friday observance was perfect obedience, I would do it. It wouldn’t be hard to do either. I could easily do it except for days I was very sick in bed or had a car wreck on the way. But I believe that outward obedience isn’t obedience but only fools you into thinking it is. And I believe this because of what Jesus said, which showed that outward observance of do not murder does not mean you haven’t murdered. And outward observance of don’t commit adultery doesn’t mean you haven’t committed adultery. I believe also that outward observance of a particular day as more holy does not mean you have entered His rest. In fact, I believe all the striving to be perfect is the opposite of the obedience of trust (faith) and dependence on His working in me and stopping all my working.

What if obedience is the evidence whether one is saved? Let's see if that's Biblical:

"Hereby we do know that we know Him if we keep His commandments. He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him." - 1 John 2:3-4 KJV​

So, we can now dispense with man's ideas and see the facts for what they are, however unwelcome to some they may be: Obedience or lack thereof is the outward evidence of our chosen inward spiritual condition, and the lost practice "sin unto death" while the saved practice obedience unto righteousness" (Romans 6:16 KJV).

So, why does the Bible say a "Just Man" falls? Because a Just Man learning to walk the Path of the Just sometimes slips and falls down into the pit of sin but will cry out to God for help, just as a toddler who's learning to walk falls down and cries for his father's help. There is infinite grace for this man.

However, the Presumptuous Man deliberately climbs down into the pit of sin, sits comfortably among the filth, repeatedly swats away the uplifting hand of Jesus, and flashes a OSAS License to Sin in His face. This man will split hell wide open, no matter how much he waves his hands in church.

So, what we have here has nothing to do with spoiled children not getting their way or the satanic control freakism of the Pharisees, but a search and rescue mission for those who are perishing while thinking they're saved because they've been wrongly taught by false pulpit prophets who "corrupt the Word of God" and teach "for doctrines the commandments of men".