Is it ever ok to lie?

[Deborah_]

Hello fellow lover of Swans... LoL
Hey Deb, have you ever seen a black Swan like in my avatar?
Probably not. We haven't got the beautiful one swans in Australia. Their black with a red bill. :)
Their originally only from here but they've exported them to other parts, maybe the UK too, I'm not sure

I've seen a black swan in Germany. There may well be some in the UK somewhere as well.

 

[Philip James]

And the RC does not make matters any easier, as they have a graduated scale of all sin they label, from Mortal to Venial. Give me a break they are making some believers mental cases.

My dear APAK

Such a good post if only you had left this smear out of it.

If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray.

Over scrupulosity can be a problem, but a good confessor will recognize and deal with that.

Happy Pentecost!

Pax et Bonum

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!

 

[APAK]

My dear APAK

Such a good post if only you had left this smear out of it.

If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray.

Over scrupulosity can be a problem, but a good confessor will recognize and deal with that.

Happy Pentecost!

Pax et Bonum

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!

Phillip, I was trying to say if it was not clear that the RC has made the confession of sin as the Law of sacrifice for sin was in the OT, as a cyclical ritual that keeps folks in fear of sin and condemns them for many sins that are not actually sins, and without cause. It's built in, institutionalized and it is wrong and brings undue stress on people. It's like cops banging on your door and you happen to live in a gang-ridden neighborhood, and they are certain that they will find drugs in your home. So cough them up and come clean, like confessing sin to the lawman of the Church. It makes a mockery of the grace of God and the spirit that dwells within a believer's heart. It is not an external confession that cleans the heart clean today. That is a façade, a fake feel-good covering for sin for a day or moment. We are not under the Law today. This must be told I'm sorry, it's the truth as I know it.

 

[Bob Estey]

The bible tells us that "Satan is the father of lies"

Ok

So then, is there ever an appropriate reason for us to lie?

What about withholding the truth?
Is that just as bad as a lie?

If you spent a lot of time and effort writing a song, and I thought it was the worst song I ever heard, and you asked me what I thought of the song, what would you have me say?

 

[Philip James]

Phillip, I was trying to say if it was not clear that the RC has made the confession of sin as the Law of sacrifice for sin was in the OT, as a cyclical ritual that keeps folks in fear of sin and condemns them for many sins that are not actually sins, and without cause. It's built in, institutionalized and it is wrong and brings undue stress on people. It's like cops banging on your door and you happen to live in a gang-ridden neighborhood, and they are certain that they will find drugs in your home. So cough them up and come clean, like confessing sin to the lawman of the Church. It makes a mockery of the grace of God and the spirit that dwells within a believer's heart. It is not an external confession that cleans the heart clean today. That is a façade, a fake feel-good covering for sin for a day or moment. We are not under the Law today. This must be told I'm sorry, it's the truth as I know it.

My dear APAK,

That is a horrible understanding and misunderstanding of the Sacrament of Reconcilliation..

For a proper understanding of what we teach and practice, i would suggest starting here: Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

Pax et Bonum

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!

 

[Cristo Rei]

If you spent a lot of time and effort writing a song, and I thought it was the worst song I ever heard, and you asked me what I thought of the song, what would you have me say?

Ah you can be honest to me about such a thing but I know what your saying

Say you had a wife that asked
"Does this dress make me look fat?"
Now you know it does but in order not to hurt her feelings you lie.

But we do have to be careful about that.
Say you had a son that one day said
"I'm a girl"
Should you tell the truth or save his feelings?

I found myself lying recently in a different context. A joke. If you think about it most jokes consist of a lie.

So I suppose there are occasions when it's ok to lie

 

[Bob Estey]

Ah you can be honest to me about such a thing but I know what your saying

Say you had a wife that asked
"Does this dress make me look fat?"
Now you know it does but in order not to hurt her feelings you lie.

But we do have to be careful about that.
Say you had a son that one day said
"I'm a girl"
Should you tell the truth or save his feelings?

I found myself lying recently in a different context. A joke. If you think about it most jokes consist of a lie.

So I suppose there are occasions when it's ok to lie

I think so. In the long run, it's better to tell the son he's not girl.

 

[lforrest]

And to establish that God lied to Abraham when he said he was going to kill his child

God did not lie since he didn't make a declaration, but gave a command to Abraham.

If I send a servant and then call them to do something else, that is my choice not lying. God is not answerable to anyone so he can withold what he likes.

 

[lforrest]

Are you sure you want to make that argument? The counter-argument goes like this: Suppose the head of a crime syndicate sends a hit man to assassinate somebody. Just because the crime boss didn't get his own hands dirty, does that absolve him of the murder?

An abuse of authority for evil is a sin, like when king David sent Uriah to be killed to get rid of him.

However in this case God was just in sending a lying spirit. We must consider who he was sending the lying spirit to. Corrupt lying false prophets of Baal. They deceive others daily, so they should themselves be deceived.

 

[JohnPaul]

The bible tells us that "Satan is the father of lies"

Ok

So then, is there ever an appropriate reason for us to lie?

What about withholding the truth?
Is that just as bad as a lie?

We’ve all done it one time or another, intentionally or unintentionally.

Don’t beat yourself up over it.

 

[Cristo Rei]

God did not lie since he didn't make a declaration, but gave a command to Abraham.

If I send a servant and then call them to do something else, that is my choice not lying. God is not answerable to anyone so he can withold what he likes.

LoL... I dunno... It took you a while to come up with that answer and it's not very convincing to be honest.

 

[Cristo Rei]

We’ve all done it one time or another, intentionally or unintentionally.

Don’t beat yourself up over it.

Im not beating myself up.
I'm just asking if there is ever a time where it's ok to lie. For example to protect someone's feelings or as a joke.

Example
You have a wife that asks
"Does this dress make me look fat?"
You know it does.
Should you say so or lie to keep the peace in the relationship?

 

[JohnPaul]

Im not beating myself up.
I'm just asking if there is ever a time where it's ok to lie. For example to protect someone's feelings or as a joke.

Example
You have a wife that asks
"Does this dress make me look fat?"
You know it does.
Should you say so or lie to keep the peace in the relationship?

Be polite and say no it doesn’t.

 

[lforrest]

LoL... I dunno... It took you a while to come up with that answer and it's not very convincing to be honest.

I needed to pray rather this topic should be allowed to continue.

 

[APAK]

I needed to pray rather this topic should be allowed to continue.

I know this topic can be very controversial especially if many, I would say all, and myself included, cannot fully or even on a small scale, understand the mind of God and his dealings with evil and mankind and then with the use of the device we call lying. And then some will say God must have lied or he gave permission to at least let others lie. And it may not be that at all! And then we may read scripture without knowing the full context that is many times beyond our understanding or not even available to know by design. And we do get it all wrong a lot of times, even with good and honest intentions.

We have all erred in this understanding of this topic at some point concerning especially if God lies or not by design or even if it was a lie. I mean God is the boss. We ask our Father to know we come with the intentions of goodness and also we do show our ignorance at times in the process.

I don't think anyone that has participated in this thread has bad or evil intentions to smear the name of our God if that might be perceived by you or has been troubling you and your conscience.

I pray you are blessed with a clear understanding of your dilemma and your decision to close this thread down or not. Amen

 

[Cristo Rei]

I needed to pray rather this topic should be allowed to continue.

No one is condoning lying with bad intentions. Certainly not me.
It's when we lie with good intentions that is in question. To save from hurting someone's feelings or even when people joke there can be a lie in there.

I gave an example a few posts back.
Rita gave some great examples at the start of this thread, one of them being a difficult personal one with her father

 

[lforrest]

No one is condoning lying with bad intentions. Certainly not me.
It's when we lie with good intentions that is in question. To save from hurting someone's feelings or even when people joke there can be a lie in there.

I gave an example a few posts back.
Rita gave some great examples at the start of this thread, one of them being a difficult personal one with her father

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

I think it is better to die than to lie, but have encountered a situation where it was necessary to lie. With a dementia patient. If you love them you will visit and not avoid them, nether can you avoid answering their questions about long dead relatives. But to not trouble them a story needs to be told.

 

[Rita]

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

I think it is better to die than to lie, but have encountered a situation where it was necessary to lie. With a dementia patient. If you love them you will visit and not avoid them, nether can you avoid answering their questions about long dead relatives. But to not trouble them a story needs to be told.

We have to do that all the time at work, we have to get into their story as best we can In order to make their day a good one.I remember one family member wanted her mum to have a letter with her to remind her that her husband had died. None of us agreed with it because it would mean her reliving that realisation over and over again, and it would confuse because she didn’t see her self as being elderly or in a care home.

However I would add that I personally do not look at God as a lier, never have and never will. As far as I am personally concerned that crosses a line and makes God untrustworthy.
I think @APAK made some good points. Xx
Rita

 

[Cristo Rei]

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

I think it is better to die than to lie, but have encountered a situation where it was necessary to lie. With a dementia patient. If you love them you will visit and not avoid them, nether can you avoid answering their questions about long dead relatives. But to not trouble them a story needs to be told.

That's the kind of lie I'm talking about.
But I'm the same. I despise evil and Satan is the father of lies so I despise them too.

We must also be careful that our good intentions are not leading to bad outcomes...

For example. Your 8yo son comes home claiming his a girl... You could go along with it in order to protect his feelings but in the long run it would be better to lay down the facts straight away

 

[Cristo Rei]

I think @APAK made some good points. Xx
Rita

The Major always makes good points ;)