Is anyone else a Seer?

[1stCenturyLady]

Oh I see... you think 1 Timothy 3:16 means Jesus is God.

There are some Greek manuscripts that read, “God appeared in the flesh.” This reading of some Greek manuscripts has passed into some English versions, and the King James Version is one of them. The reading of the earliest and best manuscripts is not “God” but rather “he who.” Almost all the modern versions have the verse as “the mystery of godliness is great, which was manifest in the flesh,” or some close equivalent.

New International Version
Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great: He appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.

English Standard Version
Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And this Mystery of Righteousness is truly great, which was revealed in the flesh and was justified in The Spirit; He appeared to Angels and was preached among the Gentiles; He was trusted in the world and he ascended into glory.

"God was manifested in the flesh." Also "received up in glory." Those say Jesus is God to me. But the one that was the clincher when I didn't believe Jesus was God was Titus 2:13"looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ." I even wrote JESUS IS GOD!! in my Bible. I never doubted it again. Maybe you can get away with lying to other people, but you can't lie to yourself.

 

[Peterlag]

"God was manifested in the flesh." Also "received up in glory." Those say Jesus is God to me. But the one that was the clincher when I didn't believe Jesus was God was Titus 2:13"looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ." I even wrote JESUS IS GOD!! in my Bible. I never doubted it again. Maybe you can get away with lying to other people, but you can't lie to yourself.

Scholars debate the translation of this verse, and the two sides of that debate can be seen in the various translations. Some scholars believe that “glory” is used in an adjectival sense, and that the verse should be translated as in the NIV84: “While we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.” Versions that follow suit are the KJV and the Amplified Version. Many other versions, such as the RV, ASV, NASB, Moffatt, RSV, NRSV, Douay, NAB, NEB, etc., translate the verse very differently. The difference between the translations is immediately apparent. In the NIV84, we await the “glorious appearing” of God, while in the NASB we await the “appearing of the glory” of God our Savior (this is a use of “Savior” where the word is applied in the context to God, not Christ.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Scholars debate the translation of this verse, and the two sides of that debate can be seen in the various translations. Some scholars believe that “glory” is used in an adjectival sense, and that the verse should be translated as in the NIV84: “While we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.” Versions that follow suit are the KJV and the Amplified Version. Many other versions, such as the RV, ASV, NASB, Moffatt, RSV, NRSV, Douay, NAB, NEB, etc., translate the verse very differently. The difference between the translations is immediately apparent. In the NIV84, we await the “glorious appearing” of God, while in the NASB we await the “appearing of the glory” of God our Savior (this is a use of “Savior” where the word is applied in the context to God, not Christ.

Well, that knowledge that Jesus is God seared my soul with faith. I am anointed and know the truth because Titus was given to me as a rhema. I think you are lying to yourself and cannot grow past the lie. Don't stunt your growth my friend, especially on purpose. Repent and be filled with the Holy Spirit of Truth.

 

[Peterlag]

Well, that knowledge that Jesus is God seared my soul with faith. I am anointed and know the truth because Titus was given to me as a rhema. I think you are lying to yourself and cannot grow past the lie. Don't stunt your growth my friend, especially on purpose. Repent and be filled with the Holy Spirit of Truth.

You are allowed to state your thoughts. I am not because if I do I'm censored, my posts are deleted in part or whole, and I have even been blocked from any further posts. Folks on here say the trinity is not allowed to be discussed. It looks to me like it can be all day... Morning, Noon, and Night. It only cannot be discussed from my view.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

You are allowed to state your thoughts. I am not because if I do I'm censored, my posts are deleted in part or whole, and I have even been blocked from any further posts. Folks on here say the trinity is not allowed to be discussed. It looks to me that it can be all day... morning, noon, and night. It only cannot be discussed from my view.

I understand. I have to be careful on a different Christian forum site (I belong to three; but two others I was banned completely from posting anything), so I know how frustrating that can be. My sticky subject was Calvinism. But I did get them to lift one ban off you, and though we don't believe everything the same, I love how you spoke of Jesus. As far as the trinity, it has baffled Christians for centuries.

 

[Peterlag]

I understand. I have to be careful on a different Christian forum site (I belong to three; but two others I was banned completely from posting anything), so I know how frustrating that can be. My sticky subject was Calvinism. But I did get them to lift one ban off you, and though we don't believe everything the same, I love how you spoke of Jesus. As far as the trinity, it has baffled Christians for centuries.

You lifting a ban on me that you say you did not cause has nothing to do with my point which is I have to let you have the last word on what we are talking about because you are allowed to discuss it. I'm not.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

You lifting a ban on me that you say you did not cause has nothing to do with my point which is I have to let you have the last word on what we are talking about because you are allowed to discuss it. I'm not.

Yes, I don't think that is fair, but I don't have a say in their politics. You can always use conversations. But because I received a rhema, there is no way I can change the Truth I received.

 

[JLB]

Oh I see... you think 1 Timothy 3:16 means Jesus is God.

There are some Greek manuscripts that read, “God appeared in the flesh.” This reading of some Greek manuscripts has passed into some English versions, and the King James Version is one of them. The reading of the earliest and best manuscripts is not “God” but rather “he who.” Almost all the modern versions have the verse as “the mystery of godliness is great, which was manifest in the flesh,” or some close equivalent.

New International Version
Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great: He appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.

English Standard Version
Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And this Mystery of Righteousness is truly great, which was revealed in the flesh and was justified in The Spirit; He appeared to Angels and was preached among the Gentiles; He was trusted in the world and he ascended into glory.

Here is some context for you -


Verse 15 - God G2316 - THEOS (Where we get the word Theology)


Same Greek word is used in verse 16 by Paul.



but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:15-16

 

[Peterlag]

Here is some context for you -


Verse 15 - God G2316 - THEOS (Where we get the word Theology)


Same Greek word is used in verse 16 by Paul.



but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:15-16




View attachment 47794

Here's 21 more besides the 3... I already gave you...

New Living Translation
Without question, this is the great mystery of our faith: Christ was revealed in a human body and vindicated by the Spirit. He was seen by angels and announced to the nations. He was believed in throughout the world and taken to heaven in glory.

Berean Standard Bible
By common confession, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was proclaimed among the nations, was believed in throughout the world, was taken up in glory.

Berean Literal Bible
And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness: Who was revealed in the flesh, was justified in the Spirit, was seen by angels, was proclaimed among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.

New American Standard Bible
Beyond question, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

NASB 1995
By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

NASB 1977
And by common confession great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Beheld by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

Legacy Standard Bible
And by common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was manifested in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

Amplified Bible
And great, we confess, is the mystery [the hidden truth] of godliness: He (Jesus Christ) who was revealed in human flesh, Was justified and vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

Christian Standard Bible
And most certainly, the mystery of godliness is great: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
And most certainly, the mystery of godliness is great: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

American Standard Version
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; He who was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the spirit, Seen of angels, Preached among the nations, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

Contemporary English Version
Here is the great mystery of our religion: Christ came as a human. The Spirit proved that he pleased God, and he was seen by angels. Christ was preached to the nations. People in this world put their faith in him, and he was taken up to glory.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And evidently great is the mystery of godliness, which was manifested in the flesh, was justified in the spirit, appeared unto angels, hath been preached unto the Gentiles, is believed in the world, is taken up in glory.

English Revised Version
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; He who was manifested in the flesh, justified in the spirit, seen of angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, received up in glory.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The mystery that gives us our reverence for God is acknowledged to be great: He appeared in his human nature, was approved by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was announced throughout the nations, was believed in the world, and was taken to heaven in glory.

Good News Translation
No one can deny how great is the secret of our religion: He appeared in human form, was shown to be right by the Spirit, and was seen by angels. He was preached among the nations, was believed in throughout the world, and was taken up to heaven.

International Standard Version
By common confession, the secret of our godly worship is great: In flesh was he revealed to sight, kept righteous by the Spirit's might, adored by angels singing. To nations was he manifest, believing souls found peace and rest, our Lord in heaven reigning!

Literal Standard Version
and confessedly, great is the secret of piety: who was revealed in flesh, declared righteous in [the] Spirit, seen by messengers, preached among nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory!

New American Bible
Undeniably great is the mystery of devotion, Who was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed to the Gentiles, believed in throughout the world, taken up in glory.

NET Bible
And we all agree, our religion contains amazing revelation: He was revealed in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among Gentiles, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

New Heart English Bible
Without controversy, the mystery of godliness is great: He was revealed in the flesh, justified by the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, and received up in glory.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

You lifting a ban on me that you say you did not cause has nothing to do with my point which is I have to let you have the last word on what we are talking about because you are allowed to discuss it. I'm not.

Many of us on this forum site are on another site where you CAN tell your views. They even have a forum for Jehovah Witnesses.

berean-apologetics.community.forum

 

[JLB]

Here's 21 more besides the 3... I already gave you...

New Living Translation
Without question, this is the great mystery of our faith: Christ was revealed in a human body and vindicated by the Spirit. He was seen by angels and announced to the nations. He was believed in throughout the world and taken to heaven in glory.

Berean Standard Bible
By common confession, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was proclaimed among the nations, was believed in throughout the world, was taken up in glory.

Berean Literal Bible
And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness: Who was revealed in the flesh, was justified in the Spirit, was seen by angels, was proclaimed among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.

New American Standard Bible
Beyond question, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

NASB 1995
By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

NASB 1977
And by common confession great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Beheld by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

Legacy Standard Bible
And by common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was manifested in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

Amplified Bible
And great, we confess, is the mystery [the hidden truth] of godliness: He (Jesus Christ) who was revealed in human flesh, Was justified and vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

Christian Standard Bible
And most certainly, the mystery of godliness is great: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
And most certainly, the mystery of godliness is great: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

American Standard Version
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; He who was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the spirit, Seen of angels, Preached among the nations, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

Contemporary English Version
Here is the great mystery of our religion: Christ came as a human. The Spirit proved that he pleased God, and he was seen by angels. Christ was preached to the nations. People in this world put their faith in him, and he was taken up to glory.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And evidently great is the mystery of godliness, which was manifested in the flesh, was justified in the spirit, appeared unto angels, hath been preached unto the Gentiles, is believed in the world, is taken up in glory.

English Revised Version
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; He who was manifested in the flesh, justified in the spirit, seen of angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, received up in glory.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The mystery that gives us our reverence for God is acknowledged to be great: He appeared in his human nature, was approved by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was announced throughout the nations, was believed in the world, and was taken to heaven in glory.

Good News Translation
No one can deny how great is the secret of our religion: He appeared in human form, was shown to be right by the Spirit, and was seen by angels. He was preached among the nations, was believed in throughout the world, and was taken up to heaven.

International Standard Version
By common confession, the secret of our godly worship is great: In flesh was he revealed to sight, kept righteous by the Spirit's might, adored by angels singing. To nations was he manifest, believing souls found peace and rest, our Lord in heaven reigning!

Literal Standard Version
and confessedly, great is the secret of piety: who was revealed in flesh, declared righteous in [the] Spirit, seen by messengers, preached among nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory!

New American Bible
Undeniably great is the mystery of devotion, Who was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed to the Gentiles, believed in throughout the world, taken up in glory.

NET Bible
And we all agree, our religion contains amazing revelation: He was revealed in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among Gentiles, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

New Heart English Bible
Without controversy, the mystery of godliness is great: He was revealed in the flesh, justified by the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, and received up in glory.

Yes, the He or Who in those modern translations are still the same Greek word THEOS, that is used contextually in verse 15 and rendered as the word God.

G23126 Theos = God

 

[Peterlag]

Yes, the He or Who in those modern translations are still the same Greek word THEOS, that is used contextually in verse 15 and rendered as the word God.

G23126 Theos = God


View attachment 47805

The He or Who in those 24 translations that I provided for you is not the same Greek word THEOS as the word is in the KJV. Also there has never been a teaching on it anywhere in the Bible. The Jews never saw it anywhere in the entire Old Testament nor anyone in the New Testament ever taught it. The Catholics who invented this nonsense have used only about 8 verses that they have to piece together from statements that are scattered all over the New Testament. One should think if such nonsense was true and important that it would have been taught by someone. And it is not. Only in the minds of Catholics who cannot explain it.

 

[Peterlag]

Many of us on this forum site are on another site where you CAN tell your views. They even have a forum for Jehovah Witnesses.

berean-apologetics.community.forum

Or well, now I'm in love with you again. How will I find you there?

 

[JLB]

The He or Who in those 24 translations that I provided for you is not the same Greek word THEOS as the word is in the KJV. Also there has never been a teaching on it anywhere in the Bible. The Jews never saw it anywhere in the entire Old Testament nor anyone in the New Testament ever taught it. The Catholics who invented this nonsense have used only about 8 verses that they have to piece together from statements that are scattered all over the New Testament. One should think if such nonsense was true and important that it would have been taught by someone. And it is not. Only in the minds of Catholics who cannot explain it.

I'm certainly not Catholic, and I can and will explain it using scripture.


Jesus Christ is the Son of God; God the Son who became flesh.

That is not nonsense.


The Spirit of the LORD Jesus Christ spoke through the mouth of the prophets, before He became flesh.

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11


Here is an example -

The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1


Jesus Christ the Son, stretched out the heavens and laid the foundation of the earth

But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:8-10



The Son created all things as YHWH the LORD God.




JLB

 

[Johann]

The He or Who in those 24 translations that I provided for you is not the same Greek word THEOS as the word is in the KJV. Also there has never been a teaching on it anywhere in the Bible. The Jews never saw it anywhere in the entire Old Testament nor anyone in the New Testament ever taught it. The Catholics who invented this nonsense have used only about 8 verses that they have to piece together from statements that are scattered all over the New Testament. One should think if such nonsense was true and important that it would have been taught by someone. And it is not. Only in the minds of Catholics who cannot explain it.

1 Timothy 3:16 is often interpreted as a Christological hymn or confession, focusing on the work and person of Jesus Christ. The absence of a direct mention of God by name raises an interesting question, but several factors help explain this phenomenon.

Analysis:
1. Implicit Reference to God:

Phrase "manifested in the flesh": While the verse does not explicitly mention "God," the phrase "manifested in the flesh" implicitly refers to the divine nature of Christ. The term "manifested" (Greek: ἐφανερώθη, ephanerōthē) strongly suggests a divine revelation, implying that it is God who is being revealed in the flesh.

Theological Context: In the broader context of Christian theology, the doctrine of the Incarnation teaches that Jesus Christ is God incarnate. Therefore, when the text speaks of Christ being "manifested in the flesh," it implicitly asserts His divinity.

2. Early Manuscript Variants:
Textual Variants: Some early manuscripts and translations of this verse do include the word "God" explicitly. For example, certain manuscripts read "God was manifested in the flesh" (Greek: Θεὸς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί, Theos ephanerōthē en sarki). However, many scholars believe that the original text may have read "He who was manifested in the flesh" (Greek: ὃς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί, hos ephanerōthē en sarki). The latter reading still points to Christ and aligns with the high Christology of the passage.
Translation Choices: Some English translations, such as the King James Version (KJV), include "God" based on the manuscript tradition they follow. Modern translations, relying on more critical editions of the Greek New Testament, may choose the rendering "He who" or "He," emphasizing the person of Christ while maintaining the theological implications.

3. Christological Emphasis:
Focus on Christ: The verse is structured to highlight key aspects of Christ's mission and identity. By listing the actions and attributes of Jesus, the text implicitly asserts His divinity without needing to explicitly name "God" in every phrase.
Incarnation and Ministry: Each phrase in the verse builds on the understanding that Jesus is the divine Son of God:
Manifested in the flesh: Refers to the Incarnation.
Justified in the Spirit: Points to His resurrection and vindication.
Seen by angels: Indicates His heavenly acknowledgment.
Preached among the Gentiles: Reflects His universal mission.
Believed on in the world: Demonstrates global acceptance.
Received up in glory: Refers to His ascension.

Summary:
1 Timothy 3:16 does not explicitly mention "God" because it implicitly references the divine nature of Jesus Christ through a series of Christological affirmations. The verse emphasizes the key aspects of Christ's incarnation, ministry, and exaltation, all of which point to His divine identity. Early manuscript variants and translation choices further explain why "God" is not directly named in all versions of this text. The theological intent is clear: to proclaim the mystery of godliness revealed in Jesus Christ, who is God incarnate.

J.

 

[Behold]

Many of us on this forum site are on another site where you CAN tell your views. They even have a forum for Jehovah Witnesses.

berean-apologetics.community.forum

Yes.
Pretty good forum.
Needs more active members...
They have a wide range of "Topics"., available, as sub forums.

A very few Calvinists there try to ruin the forum, but, that is their Ministry on a forum, as Calvinist are highly trained in the Satanic art of accusing God falsely, and ruining the faith of a real Christian.

People should check out that forum.
Worth a look.

 

[Peterlag]

1 Timothy 3:16 is often interpreted as a Christological hymn or confession, focusing on the work and person of Jesus Christ. The absence of a direct mention of God by name raises an interesting question, but several factors help explain this phenomenon.

Analysis:
1. Implicit Reference to God:

Phrase "manifested in the flesh": While the verse does not explicitly mention "God," the phrase "manifested in the flesh" implicitly refers to the divine nature of Christ. The term "manifested" (Greek: ἐφανερώθη, ephanerōthē) strongly suggests a divine revelation, implying that it is God who is being revealed in the flesh.

Theological Context: In the broader context of Christian theology, the doctrine of the Incarnation teaches that Jesus Christ is God incarnate. Therefore, when the text speaks of Christ being "manifested in the flesh," it implicitly asserts His divinity.

2. Early Manuscript Variants:
Textual Variants: Some early manuscripts and translations of this verse do include the word "God" explicitly. For example, certain manuscripts read "God was manifested in the flesh" (Greek: Θεὸς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί, Theos ephanerōthē en sarki). However, many scholars believe that the original text may have read "He who was manifested in the flesh" (Greek: ὃς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί, hos ephanerōthē en sarki). The latter reading still points to Christ and aligns with the high Christology of the passage.
Translation Choices: Some English translations, such as the King James Version (KJV), include "God" based on the manuscript tradition they follow. Modern translations, relying on more critical editions of the Greek New Testament, may choose the rendering "He who" or "He," emphasizing the person of Christ while maintaining the theological implications.

3. Christological Emphasis:
Focus on Christ: The verse is structured to highlight key aspects of Christ's mission and identity. By listing the actions and attributes of Jesus, the text implicitly asserts His divinity without needing to explicitly name "God" in every phrase.
Incarnation and Ministry: Each phrase in the verse builds on the understanding that Jesus is the divine Son of God:
Manifested in the flesh: Refers to the Incarnation.
Justified in the Spirit: Points to His resurrection and vindication.
Seen by angels: Indicates His heavenly acknowledgment.
Preached among the Gentiles: Reflects His universal mission.
Believed on in the world: Demonstrates global acceptance.
Received up in glory: Refers to His ascension.

Summary:
1 Timothy 3:16 does not explicitly mention "God" because it implicitly references the divine nature of Jesus Christ through a series of Christological affirmations. The verse emphasizes the key aspects of Christ's incarnation, ministry, and exaltation, all of which point to His divine identity. Early manuscript variants and translation choices further explain why "God" is not directly named in all versions of this text. The theological intent is clear: to proclaim the mystery of godliness revealed in Jesus Christ, who is God incarnate.

J.

The theological intent is that he was the Messiah the son of God and therefore divine that way. If what you are suggesting was true then it would have been taught somewhere. Taught!! Not just verses scattered all over the New Testament. And there is none. Nobody in either the Old Testament or the New ever taught it.

 

[Johann]

A very few Calvinists there try to ruin the forum, but, that is their Ministry on a forum, as Calvinist are highly trained in the Satanic art of accusing God falsely, and ruining the faith of a real Christian.

I was banned from that forum defending the reformers--your prerogative to call them agents of Satan with cunning, Satanic art of accusing God falsely, I see it differently.

1. John Wycliffe (c. 1320-1384):
Contributions: Often called the "Morning Star of the Reformation," Wycliffe was an English theologian and scholar. He criticized the wealth and power of the Church, translated the Bible into English, and promoted the idea that the Scriptures were the sole authority for Christian faith and practice.

Sufferings: Wycliffe faced significant opposition from the Church. His writings were condemned, and he was declared a heretic posthumously.
Death: Wycliffe died of a stroke in 1384. Despite his natural death, the Council of Constance declared him a heretic in 1415, and his remains were exhumed and burned.

2. Jan Hus (c. 1369-1415):
Contributions: A Czech theologian and preacher, Hus was influenced by Wycliffe's teachings. He criticized the moral failings of the clergy, advocated for church reform, and promoted the primacy of the Bible.
Sufferings: Hus was excommunicated and summoned to the Council of Constance. Despite being promised safe conduct, he was arrested, tried for heresy, and refused to recant his views.
Death: On July 6, 1415, Hus was burned at the stake. His execution ignited the Hussite Wars in Bohemia, a precursor to the wider Reformation.

3. Girolamo Savonarola (1452-1498):
Contributions: An Italian Dominican friar and preacher, Savonarola called for moral and religious reform in Florence. He condemned the corruption of the Church and the secularism of the Renaissance.
Sufferings: His vehement sermons and prophecies earned him many enemies. He was excommunicated by Pope Alexander VI and later arrested.
Death: Savonarola was tried for heresy, schism, and other charges. He was hanged and his body was burned on May 23, 1498, in Florence's Piazza della Signoria.

4. Martin Luther (1483-1546):
Contributions: A German monk, theologian, and professor, Luther is credited with sparking the Protestant Reformation. His 95 Theses, posted in 1517, criticized the Church's sale of indulgences and other practices. He translated the Bible into German and emphasized justification by faith alone.
Sufferings: Luther faced excommunication and the threat of execution. He was summoned to the Diet of Worms in 1521, where he refused to recant. Protected by Elector Frederick the Wise, Luther spent time in hiding at Wartburg Castle.
Death: Luther died of natural causes on February 18, 1546.

5. Ulrich Zwingli (1484-1531):
Contributions: A Swiss reformer, Zwingli led the Reformation in Zurich. He preached against the Church’s abuses, promoted the use of the Bible in worship, and rejected many Catholic practices.

Sufferings: Zwingli faced significant opposition from both Catholic and Protestant factions. He was involved in the Second Kappel War, a religious conflict between Catholic and Protestant cantons in Switzerland.
Death: Zwingli was killed in battle on October 11, 1531, during the Second Kappel War. His body was quartered, burned, and his ashes mixed with dung.

6. William Tyndale (c. 1494-1536):
Contributions: An English scholar and translator, Tyndale is best known for his translation of the Bible into English, which greatly influenced later translations, including the King James Version.
Sufferings: Tyndale faced fierce opposition from the Catholic Church. His works were banned, and he lived much of his life in hiding.
Death: Betrayed by a friend, Tyndale was arrested in Antwerp in 1535. He was tried for heresy and treason, strangled, and then burned at the stake on October 6, 1536. His final prayer reportedly was, "Lord, open the King of England's eyes."

These early reformers played pivotal roles in challenging the established Church and laying the groundwork for the Protestant Reformation. Their lives were marked by significant contributions to Christian thought and practice, and they often suffered persecution, imprisonment, and even death for their beliefs. Their legacy continues to influence Christianity to this day.

Say what you like @Behold.

 

[Peterlag]

I'm certainly not Catholic, and I can and will explain it using scripture.


Jesus Christ is the Son of God; God the Son who became flesh.

That is not nonsense.


The Spirit of the LORD Jesus Christ spoke through the mouth of the prophets, before He became flesh.

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11


Here is an example -

The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1


Jesus Christ the Son, stretched out the heavens and laid the foundation of the earth

But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:8-10



The Son created all things as YHWH the LORD God.




JLB

I don't understand your point concerning 1 Peter chapter one. This secret concerning the body of Christ was hidden in God, and this is why the prophets who spoke and wrote God’s Word had to search diligently to find out the length of time that was between “the sufferings of Christ, and the glory.” They could not find anything to tell them if the glory would follow the sufferings immediately, or if there would be a period of time between them. The prophets revealed “the sufferings” and saw the glory that followed, but they did not know “what” it was or the length of time between “the sufferings” and the appearing of Christ, and that is what those prophets searched diligently to find.

 

[Johann]

The theological intent is that he was the Messiah the son of God and therefore divine that way. If what you are suggesting was true then it would have been taught somewhere. Taught!! Not just verses scattered all over the New Testament. And there is none. Nobody in either the Old Testament or the New ever taught it.

I do not agree--
Examination of 1 Timothy 3:16 in the Early Church (1st Century)

1 Timothy 3:16 (Greek and English):
Καὶ ὁμολογουμένως μέγα ἐστὶν τὸ τῆς εὐσεβείας μυστήριον· Ὃς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί, ἐδικαιώθη ἐν πνεύματι, ὤφθη ἀγγέλοις, ἐκηρύχθη ἐν ἔθνεσιν, ἐπιστεύθη ἐν κόσμῳ, ἀνελήμφθη ἐν δόξῃ.
"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory."

Early Church Interpretation and Teachings:
1 Timothy 3:16 is a Christological hymn that encapsulates key aspects of the mystery of godliness, focusing on the incarnation, vindication, and exaltation of Christ. Early Church Fathers and Christian writers referenced similar themes in their writings, though a direct exposition on this specific verse in the first century is scarce. However, the core doctrines expressed in this passage were central to the early Christian faith.

Early Church Figures and Their Teachings:
Ignatius of Antioch (c. 35-108 AD):

Christology: Ignatius emphasized the reality of Christ’s incarnation and His dual nature as both fully divine and fully human. In his letters, he often spoke of Christ as "God in the flesh."
Writings: In his letter to the Ephesians, Ignatius wrote, "There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first passible and then impassible, even Jesus Christ our Lord."
Polycarp of Smyrna (c. 69-155 AD):

Apostolic Witness: Polycarp, a disciple of John the Apostle, upheld the teachings of the apostles, emphasizing Christ’s work and divine nature.
Writings: Although his extant writings are limited, in his letter to the Philippians, he stressed the importance of Christ’s incarnation and redemptive work.
Clement of Rome (c. 35-99 AD):

Epistle to the Corinthians: Clement, an early bishop of Rome, wrote extensively about the humility and suffering of Christ. His writings reflect an early understanding of Christ’s divine mission.

Christological Hymns: Although Clement did not directly comment on 1 Timothy 3:16, his epistle includes creedal statements and hymns that echo the Christological themes found in this verse.

Key Teachings Reflected in 1 Timothy 3:16:
Incarnation (ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί): The early Church
firmly held that Jesus Christ was God incarnate, as seen in the writings of Ignatius and Clement.

Justification (ἐδικαιώθη ἐν πνεύματι): Early Christian writings frequently mention the vindication of Christ through His resurrection and the role of the Holy Spirit.

Witness of Angels (ὤφθη ἀγγέλοις): Early theologians acknowledged the angelic proclamation of Christ's birth and resurrection.
Universal Proclamation (ἐκηρύχθη ἐν ἔθνεσιν): The mission to preach the gospel to all nations was a foundational aspect of early Christian teaching, as seen in the Acts of the Apostles and the writings of early Church Fathers.

Belief in the World (ἐπιστεύθη ἐν κόσμῳ): The spread of Christianity and the belief in Christ across different cultures and regions were emphasized by early Church leaders.

Ascension and Glorification (ἀνελήμφθη ἐν δόξῃ): The ascension of Christ and His exalted state were celebrated in early Christian creeds and liturgies.

Summary:
While there is no direct commentary on 1 Timothy 3:16 from the first century, the themes expressed in this verse are echoed in the writings and teachings of early Church Fathers such as Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp of Smyrna, and Clement of Rome. These early Christian leaders emphasized the core doctrines of the incarnation, justification, angelic witness, universal proclamation, global belief, and the ascension and glorification of Christ, which align closely with the content of 1 Timothy 3:16.

Believe it or not.
J.