In our image..

[Aunty Jane]

I repeat.

6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders.

The FACT that Jesus is a co-habitor (I won't say he shares because it WOULD imply a co-regency, which is NOT the relationship of the father with the Son) of the throne and accepts every word of worshipful honor that the Father does clearly does demonstrate his divinity, at least in the eyes of the heavenly host if not yours.

Why do you stumble over "co-regency", which is a perfectly normal and natural term when it comes to sons assuming the rulership of a land with their Fathers. What prevents Jesus sharing his Father's throne, because last time I looked it was God's Kingdom that he rules, not his own.
"Co-habiting" in not really something attached to rulership, is it? You said that...but it doesn't make it true unless you have scripture to back up what you claim....so far you aren't doing too well on that score.

It is Yahweh alone who is to be given our worship, as Jesus said (Luke 4:5-8)....perhaps some research on the Greek word pro·sky·neʹo is in order....?
Does it always mean "worship" or can it mean "obeisance" as in a show of respectful honor? That depends on the context, so when it is said in connection with the one true God, it is worship, but directed to a human or other individual, it is obeisance. And since Yahweh remains the God of Jesus even in heaven, (Revelation 3:12) there is no way that Jesus is "worshipped" by anyone...not even the angels.....but they honor him as God's "firstborn".

The wording strongly implies they simultaneously occupy the seat of divine authority

LOL...."strongly implies"....is that the best you can do? To whom is it strongly implied....let me guess.

The reason for that might just be that Jesus is presented in scripture as 'divinity' but not 'deity'....there is a difference because scripture says so.
When Jesus addressed the Jews who were accusing him of blasphemy, they did not say that he was claiming to be "God" (ho theos) but that he was claiming to be "theos" which in Strong's primary definition means..."a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities".
He said that the judges in Israel were called "gods" (theos) by his Father, because of their divine authority.....Jesus too is divinely authorized in his mission as Redeemer. (Matthew 28:18) How can God authorize himself?.....
Calling Jesus "theos" doesn't make him "ho theos". Only Yahweh holds that title.

and while I am at it the reference to the seven horns and seven eyes of the lamb is a clear reference to the Holy Spirit which even your cult (in the formal sense) recognizes and he too occupies the Throne and accepts worship. Listen Up! And for Chrissake take your doctrinal blinders off and read your own quote:

I did and I explained it.
But wow....what a very Christian response...thank you for showing us your true colors. Nothing like an emotive subject to bring out the best in people.... I feel your frustration....one of us has doctrinal blinders on and I think its great that Jesus knows who is wearing them.....since "few" are on the road to salvation...where does that leave the majority? (Matthew 7:13-14) Do they believe what you do?

I actually wait for these kinds of responses because when people run out of argument (and they know it) the cracks begin to show and the personal attacks begin. Its a sure sign that the tank is empty. When people cannot defend...they attack. Its human nature.

I have heard your argument and I reject it based on my own study of the Bible.....you don't need to get upset just because I see through your weak defense. If that is your truth then hang on to it...its not my truth.

“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”

14 The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped."

Was there a point to your repetition if I have already addressed this? Does it say who the elders worshipped?

Now, let me repeat...
If you notice in verses 9-10...it says of Jesus...
"You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”

You seem to read right over what is very obvious, without actually seeing what is written....with his blood, Christ purchased people for God, who will serve in heaven as kings and priests.....to serve whom? "our God"...who is clearly NOT Jesus. (Revelation 20:6)

Verses 12-14 read...
“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!”

But there is no mention of worship there. In the next verse, it is the elders who worship the one to whom all worship is directed....Yahweh.

So, I completely disagree with your take on that scripture.....it is obvious that you are reading past the important details....but no matter, you will see only what you want to see...and so be it. We all have choices about what we accept as truth.....it tells our judge who we are.....and we all have the same one....:hmm:

I hope you enjoyed your little meltdown....feel better now?

 

[Jack]

Satan LOVES it when his children convince people there is no "everlasting fire"!

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Earburner]

Satan LOVES it when his children convince people there is no "everlasting fire"!

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The issue here is, the global LoF will have a source of ignition, from Him who is Himself an "everlasting" "consuming fire", and shall come in "flaming [blazing] fire". KJV Hebrews 12:29, 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10.
BTW, "day and night, forever and ever" is an oxymoron.
There is no such thing as "day and night" in eternity.

However, there is a singular truth in it that applies to the recipients of mortal flesh, and that is until their physical death occurs for all eternity, they will be tormented by His eternal presence of a "consuming fire".
Therefore, in all actuality, Jesus isn't going to say anything to the "cursed" in Matthew 25:41. They will simply be "burned up", just as it happened in the SAME day when Lot left Sodom. Luke 17:29-30.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

As a matter of interest is this verse open to some interpretation?-
"Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness.." (Genesis 1:26)

The standard belief among Christians seems to be that God made us to look like him physically, i.e. he had a human body, yet Jesus said-
"God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth" (John 4:24)
So how can a spirit have fleshly human form?
Perhaps we can therefore speculate that "in our image and our likeness" means something non-physical, and he made us to be like him spiritually, so that we have some of his attributes such as honour, decency, compassion etc?
PS- Incidentally why did God use the plural "our" in Gen 1:26, why didn't he say "in my image"?

He inspired "our" because God is a tri-une God.

Based on Scripture, image is "resemblance and man is a tri-chotomous being, body, soul ,spirit, Each corresponding to one person of the triunity of God.

 

[Jack]

T
BTW, "day and night, forever and ever" is an oxymoron.
There is no such thing as "day and night" in eternity.

So God just made up a Fairy Tale?

 

[DanielConway]

Why do you stumble over "co-regency", which is a perfectly normal and natural term when it comes to sons assuming the rulership of a land with their Fathers. What prevents Jesus sharing his Father's throne, because last time I looked it was God's Kingdom that he rules, not his own.
"Co-habiting" in not really something attached to rulership, is it? You said that...but it doesn't make it true unless you have scripture to back up what you claim....so far you aren't doing too well on that score.

It is Yahweh alone who is to be given our worship, as Jesus said (Luke 4:5-8)....perhaps some research on the Greek word pro·sky·neʹo is in order....?
Does it always mean "worship" or can it mean "obeisance" as in a show of respectful honor? That depends on the context, so when it is said in connection with the one true God, it is worship, but directed to a human or other individual, it is obeisance. And since Yahweh remains the God of Jesus even in heaven, (Revelation 3:12) there is no way that Jesus is "worshipped" by anyone...not even the angels.....but they honor him as God's "firstborn".


LOL...."strongly implies"....is that the best you can do? To whom is it strongly implied....let me guess.

The reason for that might just be that Jesus is presented in scripture as 'divinity' but not 'deity'....there is a difference because scripture says so.
When Jesus addressed the Jews who were accusing him of blasphemy, they did not say that he was claiming to be "God" (ho theos) but that he was claiming to be "theos" which in Strong's primary definition means..."a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities".
He said that the judges in Israel were called "gods" (theos) by his Father, because of their divine authority.....Jesus too is divinely authorized in his mission as Redeemer. (Matthew 28:18) How can God authorize himself?.....
Calling Jesus "theos" doesn't make him "ho theos". Only Yahweh holds that title.


I did and I explained it.
But wow....what a very Christian response...thank you for showing us your true colors. Nothing like an emotive subject to bring out the best in people.... I feel your frustration....one of us has doctrinal blinders on and I think its great that Jesus knows who is wearing them.....since "few" are on the road to salvation...where does that leave the majority? (Matthew 7:13-14) Do they believe what you do?

I actually wait for these kinds of responses because when people run out of argument (and they know it) the cracks begin to show and the personal attacks begin. Its a sure sign that the tank is empty. When people cannot defend...they attack. Its human nature.

I have heard your argument and I reject it based on my own study of the Bible.....you don't need to get upset just because I see through your weak defense. If that is your truth then hang on to it...its not my truth.


Was there a point to your repetition if I have already addressed this? Does it say who the elders worshipped?

Now, let me repeat...
If you notice in verses 9-10...it says of Jesus...
"You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”

You seem to read right over what is very obvious, without actually seeing what is written....with his blood, Christ purchased people for God, who will serve in heaven as kings and priests.....to serve whom? "our God"...who is clearly NOT Jesus. (Revelation 20:6)

Verses 12-14 read...
“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!”

But there is no mention of worship there. In the next verse, it is the elders who worship the one to whom all worship is directed....Yahweh.

So, I completely disagree with your take on that scripture.....it is obvious that you are reading past the important details....but no matter, you will see only what you want to see...and so be it. We all have choices about what we accept as truth.....it tells our judge who we are.....and we all have the same one....:hmm:

I hope you enjoyed your little meltdown....feel better now?

Well Gollee Autie Jane! You do an awful lot of vacillating between denigrating my rhetorical aspects and emulating them.! Can't you make up your mind? Think a minute! Or here, I'll do it for you. Yeshua threw Satan out of heaven for attempting to assume divine prerogative, and you think he will tolerate anyone on the Throne in the Throne room (Yes, the Throne room, it is perfectly clear) who falls short of COMPLETE deity? Read your own books and treatises gumbyoo!! They are must be One, all three of them.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Well Gollee Autie Jane! You do an awful lot of vacillating between denigrating my rhetorical aspects and emulating them.!

Well, gollee DC, do you honestly believe that your childish whining is a substitute for providing sound scriptural defence for what you post? The true colours are showing again...cracks in the wall...chinks in the armour....personal attacks...so telling.
Your ego is upset apparently and it is overtaking your Christianity.....pity about that. Try to stick with the Bible....

Can't you make up your mind? Think a minute! Or here, I'll do it for you.

LOL...you crack me up .....seriously, you are responding like a wounded soldier who is trying to pretend that his wounds are not life threatening. Ever see the Black Knight in Monty Python’s Holy Grail? “It’s just a flesh wound!”
Address the subject, not the poster....OK?
The scriptures are the final word on everything....you interpretation is just that....your POV.

Yeshua threw Satan out of heaven for attempting to assume divine prerogative, and you think he will tolerate anyone on the Throne in the Throne room (Yes, the Throne room, it is perfectly clear) who falls short of COMPLETE deity?

“The throne room”.....”assume divine prerogative”....what on earth are you talking about???
Are you losing the plot? What is this nonsense? Just plain English will do nicely.

Read your own books and treatises gumbyoo!!

Is English not your first language? :hmm:

They are must be One, all three of them.

Must they? Who said....you? Can the whole of Christendom be wrong about that? Since the majority are on the ‘wrong’ road and they all believe what you believe (after a fashion) who are the “few” whom Jesus said are on the ‘right road’? (Matthew 7:13-14) Please tell me using scripture because you seem to keep forgetting that scripture needs context and application within the framework of its entirety. IOW, you can’t post a scripture without applying what you think it means, because you have to understand it first before you can give it to someone else. To date, you have failed to support your beliefs with scripture.

I have addressed your scripture, but you always seem to ignore the ones I post back to you....there seems to be a reason for that....I’ll let the readers come to their own conclusions about that.

 

[Jack]

Well, gollee DC, do you honestly believe that your childish whining is a substitute for providing sound scriptural defence for what you post? The true colours are showing again...cracks in the wall...chinks in the armour....personal attacks...so telling.
Your ego is upset apparently and it is overtaking your Christianity.....pity about that. Try to stick with the Bible....


LOL...you crack me up .....seriously, you are responding like a wounded soldier who is trying to pretend that his wounds are not life threatening. Ever see the Black Knight in Monty Python’s Holy Grail? “It’s just a flesh wound!”
Address the subject, not the poster....OK?
The scriptures are the final word on everything....you interpretation is just that....your POV.


“The throne room”.....”assume divine prerogative”....what on earth are you talking about???
Are you losing the plot? What is this nonsense? Just plain English will do nicely.


Is English not your first language? :hmm:


Must they? Who said....you? Can the whole of Christendom be wrong about that? Since the majority are on the ‘wrong’ road and they all believe what you believe (after a fashion) who are the “few” whom Jesus said are on the ‘right road’? (Matthew 7:13-14) Please tell me using scripture because you seem to keep forgetting that scripture needs context and application within the framework of its entirety. IOW, you can’t post a scripture without applying what you think it means, because you have to understand it first before you can give it to someone else. To date, you have failed to support your beliefs with scripture.

I have addressed your scripture, but you always seem to ignore the ones I post back to you....there seems to be a reason for that....I’ll let the readers come to their own conclusions about that.

Do you read your own posts?

 

[Aunty Jane]

I'll take that as a compliment. If I were @Aunty Jane, I might ask just what that twist is but you have shown a devotion to not examine your false beliefs, a devotion to not answer questions but merely categorize the questioner as POISON, etc.

This reveals you lost the argument.

He has no argument that he can validate.....brainwashing means that it’s victims are programmed to ignore anything that is not the *accepted* truth.....it is not recognised and no amount of scripture will convince them....but the exchanges here will at least give people some idea that there is more to the Bible’s message than Christendom has ever taught them....perhaps it will guide them on their own journey...Yahweh will do the rest. (John 6:44, 65) Jesus has provided the truth, the counsel and the example that we should follow....but “few” will actually embrace it. (Matthew 7:13-14)

 

[Jack]

Even the NWT says JW's are deceived!

 

[Aunty Jane]

Do you read your own posts?

They are responses.....to what is said to me....if they can dish it out, they should be able to cop a bit back.......do you read your own responses? Nothing but pure ignorant hate speech.

Good grief.... I have no idea what you think you are doing in a debate forum when your Bible knowledge is appalling....go and learn your subjects t first. Then try to contribute something useful....

 

[Earburner]

So God just made up a Fairy Tale?

Not fairy tales.
God speaks to us in symbolism, dichotomies, parallels and parables. Only by His Holy Spirit ("the mind of Christ")* within us, is it possible for us to understand His thoughts and His ways (meaning). Without Him interpreting His meanings to us, all that we shall ever grasp of it is a human understanding.

It's all being done that way, so that the wise of this world, who are self righteous, and/or are disbelievers, will not be able to discern His truth by the wisdom of men**.
1 Corinthians 1[19] For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.[20] Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?[27] But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1 Corinthians 3[19] For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
[20] And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

* 1 Corinthians 2:16.
**1 Corinthians 2[5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but [rather] in the power of God.

 

[DanielConway]

Check it out! I went to the Jehovah's Witnesses website to see how they got around the "lamb standing in the midst of the throne" passage from Revelation, and they claim that Jehovah's throne is semicircular and that the lamb therefor stands in the middle of it but not actually on it. I guess in their doctrine Jehovah has a semi-circular behind, hmm???

Defend Jehovah's Witnesses: Rev. 5:6 and Rev. 5:13 "Throne"

So why is the Lamb standing in the center of the throne of God? Well here is how it reads in the original Greek: "And I saw in midst of the throne (en meso tou thronou) ... lamb standing...." Thayer tells us of this NT Greek word meso:

"in midst of, i.e. in the space within, tou thronou [`the throne'] (which must be conceived of as having a semicircular shape [c-shaped]: Rev. iv. 6; v. 6."

 

[Jack]

They are responses.....to what is said to me....if they can dish it out, they should be able to cop a bit back.......do you read your own responses? Nothing but pure ignorant hate speech.

Good grief.... I have no idea what you think you are doing in a debate forum when your Bible knowledge is appalling....go and learn your subjects t first. Then try to contribute something useful....

You use Democrat tactics. You hurl insults and accuse others of what YOU do.

 

[Jack]

Not fairy tales.
God speaks to us in symbolism, dichotomies, parallels and parables. Only by His Holy Spirit ("the mind of Christ")* within us, is it possible for us to understand His thoughts and His ways (meaning). Without Him interpreting His meanings to us, all that we shall ever grasp of it is a human understanding.

It's all being done that way, so that the wise of this world, who are self righteous, and/or are disbelievers, will not be able to discern His truth by the wisdom of men**.
1 Corinthians 1[19] For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.[20] Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?[27] But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1 Corinthians 3[19] For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
[20] And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

* 1 Corinthians 2:16.
**1 Corinthians 2[5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but [rather] in the power of God.

Yeah, JW's call it "symbolism" and "parable" when they hate what God said.

 

[Earburner]

Yeah, JW's call it "symbolism" and "parable" when they hate what God said.

You don't understand your Bible. Are you a recent convert to Christ, and have been born again of His Spirit?
John 16[13] Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

 

[Jack]

You don't understand your Bible. Are you a recent convert to Christ, and have been born again of His Spirit?
John 16[13] Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

It's easy to understand when Satan's children tell us God doesn't mean what He says, like Hell is eternal and Jesus is God.