Imagine a World with no Christians!

[Enoch111]

Then explain the many Greek variants in 1Cor. 15:51. What does: 'but we shall all be changed', mean?

What Greek variants are you talking about? The Greek text is identical in both the critical texts (marked in red) and the traditional texts (marked in blue)
Nestle Greek New Testament 1904
ἰδοὺ μυστήριον ὑμῖν λέγω· πάντες οὐ κοιμηθησόμεθα, πάντες δὲ ἀλλαγησόμεθα,
Westcott and Hort 1881
ἰδοὺ μυστήριον ὑμῖν λέγω· πάντες οὐ κοιμηθησόμεθα πάντες δὲ ἀλλαγησόμεθα,
Westcott and Hort / [NA27 variants]
ἰδοὺ μυστήριον ὑμῖν λέγω· πάντες οὐ κοιμηθησόμεθα πάντες δὲ ἀλλαγησόμεθα,

RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
Ἰδού, μυστήριον ὑμῖν λέγω· πάντες μὲν οὐ κοιμηθησόμεθα, πάντες δὲ ἀλλαγησόμεθα,
Greek Orthodox Church 1904
ἰδοὺ μυστήριον ὑμῖν λέγω· πάντες μὲν οὐ κοιμηθησόμεθα, πάντες δὲ ἀλλαγησόμεθα,
Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
ἰδοὺ, μυστήριον ὑμῖν λέγω· Πάντες μὲν οὐ κοιμηθησόμεθα, πάντες δὲ ἀλλαγησόμεθα,

LITERALLY: Behold a mystery to you I tell. All not we will sleep. All however, we will be changed.

KJB: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.

So what does "we shall all be changed" mean? It simply means that all believers who are alive at the Resurrection/Rapture will be (a) transformed, (b) perfected, and (c) glorified. All those in Christ who are resurrected at that time will receive immortal glorified bodies, and the ones who are raptured will be transformed and also receive glorified immortal bodies. See 1 John 3:1-3 and other passages regarding the Resurrection/Rapture (one event but the resurrected saints will precede the raptured saints momentarily).

 

[James Macbeth]

The CHURCH DOES . But the roman catholic church AINT the CHURCH .
The church are those in CHRIST and those follow HIM .

Rev 1:11
Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”

True the Catholic church is not the Church, but one of many churches.

And each Church has it own guardian Angel.

Rev. 1:20
As for the mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand, and the seven golden lampstands, the seven stars are the Angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

 

[Truth7t7]

What Greek variants are you talking about? The Greek text is identical in both the critical texts (marked in red) and the traditional texts (marked in blue)
Nestle Greek New Testament 1904
ἰδοὺ μυστήριον ὑμῖν λέγω· πάντες οὐ κοιμηθησόμεθα, πάντες δὲ ἀλλαγησόμεθα,
Westcott and Hort 1881
ἰδοὺ μυστήριον ὑμῖν λέγω· πάντες οὐ κοιμηθησόμεθα πάντες δὲ ἀλλαγησόμεθα,
Westcott and Hort / [NA27 variants]
ἰδοὺ μυστήριον ὑμῖν λέγω· πάντες οὐ κοιμηθησόμεθα πάντες δὲ ἀλλαγησόμεθα,

RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
Ἰδού, μυστήριον ὑμῖν λέγω· πάντες μὲν οὐ κοιμηθησόμεθα, πάντες δὲ ἀλλαγησόμεθα,
Greek Orthodox Church 1904
ἰδοὺ μυστήριον ὑμῖν λέγω· πάντες μὲν οὐ κοιμηθησόμεθα, πάντες δὲ ἀλλαγησόμεθα,
Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
ἰδοὺ, μυστήριον ὑμῖν λέγω· Πάντες μὲν οὐ κοιμηθησόμεθα, πάντες δὲ ἀλλαγησόμεθα,

LITERALLY: Behold a mystery to you I tell. All not we will sleep. All however, we will be changed.

KJB: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.

So what does "we shall all be changed" mean? It simply means that all believers who are alive at the Resurrection/Rapture will be (a) transformed, (b) perfected, and (c) glorified. All those in Christ who are resurrected at that time will receive immortal glorified bodies, and the ones who are raptured will be transformed and also receive glorified immortal bodies. See 1 John 3:1-3 and other passages regarding the Resurrection/Rapture (one event but the resurrected saints will precede the raptured saints momentarily).

I fully agree, however this rapture and resurrection takes place immediately after the tribulation at the second coming (The End)

 

[Pearl]

Imagine a World with no Christians is not so difficult these days with so much darkness everywhere you look.

 

[Truth7t7]

Rev 1:11
Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”

True the Catholic church is not the Church, but one of many churches.

And each Church has it own guardian Angel.

Rev. 1:20
As for the mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand, and the seven golden lampstands, the seven stars are the Angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

The Catholic Church has a guardian angel?

Do the Jehovahs Witnesses and Mormons have one to?

 

[Truth7t7]

All the corrupters of the Bible, including Origen, Eusebius, Pamphilius, Jerome (and all modern bible version translators) have been corrupting the Bible while claiming that they were "correcting" it. So Jerome's Latin Vulgate is an ancestor to corrupt modern bible versions, and should be ignored. Paul said that "We are not as many which corrupt the Word of God" and the Gnostics of his time were doing exactly that. The corrupted Greek manuscripts used for modern versions are primarily Gnostic inventions.

I agree 100%, the corrupt schools of Alexandria Egypt and their mastermind in the heretic Origen who was banished for his Arian heresy

Origen corrupted the Greek texts in Alexandria and Caserea, and revised them to include his Arian, Gnostic, beliefs

The Greek manuscript Sinaticus is from the pen of Origen, that supports modern Bible versions

Kurt Aland and his creation of the (Novum Testamentum Graece) follows the work of Origen in Sinaticus, with Alands creation supporting modern versions, NIV, NASB, ESV, RSV, Etc

 

[James Macbeth]

The Catholic Church has a guardian angel?

Do the Jehovahs Witnesses and Mormons have one to?

I don't know, ask them.

 

[James Macbeth]

What Greek variants are you talking about? The Greek text is identical in both the critical texts (marked in red) and the traditional texts (marked in blue)
Nestle Greek New Testament 1904
ἰδοὺ μυστήριον ὑμῖν λέγω· πάντες οὐ κοιμηθησόμεθα, πάντες δὲ ἀλλαγησόμεθα,
Westcott and Hort 1881
ἰδοὺ μυστήριον ὑμῖν λέγω· πάντες οὐ κοιμηθησόμεθα πάντες δὲ ἀλλαγησόμεθα,
Westcott and Hort / [NA27 variants]
ἰδοὺ μυστήριον ὑμῖν λέγω· πάντες οὐ κοιμηθησόμεθα πάντες δὲ ἀλλαγησόμεθα,

RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
Ἰδού, μυστήριον ὑμῖν λέγω· πάντες μὲν οὐ κοιμηθησόμεθα, πάντες δὲ ἀλλαγησόμεθα,
Greek Orthodox Church 1904
ἰδοὺ μυστήριον ὑμῖν λέγω· πάντες μὲν οὐ κοιμηθησόμεθα, πάντες δὲ ἀλλαγησόμεθα,
Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
ἰδοὺ, μυστήριον ὑμῖν λέγω· Πάντες μὲν οὐ κοιμηθησόμεθα, πάντες δὲ ἀλλαγησόμεθα,

LITERALLY: Behold a mystery to you I tell. All not we will sleep. All however, we will be changed.

KJB: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.

So what does "we shall all be changed" mean? It simply means that all believers who are alive at the Resurrection/Rapture will be (a) transformed, (b) perfected, and (c) glorified. All those in Christ who are resurrected at that time will receive immortal glorified bodies, and the ones who are raptured will be transformed and also receive glorified immortal bodies. See 1 John 3:1-3 and other passages regarding the Resurrection/Rapture (one event but the resurrected saints will precede the raptured saints momentarily).

Those are not Manuscripts but printed text.
There is a difference.
These are the variants:

The manuscripts are grouped into four basic readings here:

(1) א C 0243* 33 1739 have “we all will sleep, but we will not all be changed” (πάντες κοιμηθησόμεθα, οὐ πάντες δὲ ἀλλαγησόμεθα);

(2) Ì46 Ac (F G) have “we will not all sleep, but we will not all be changed” (πάντες οὐ κοιμηθησόμεθα, οὐ πάντες δὲ ἀλλαγησόμεθα);

(3) D* lat Tert Ambst Spec read “we will all rise, but we will not all be changed.”

(4) The wording πάντες οὐ κοιμηθησόμεθα, πάντες δὲ ἀλλαγησόμεθα (“we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed”) is found in B D2 Ψ 075 0243c 1881 Ï sy co.

How shall we interpret such data?
In light of the fact that Paul and his generation did in fact die, early scribes may have felt some embarrassment over the bald statement, “We will not all sleep” (πάντες οὐ κοιμηθησόμεθα).

This could account for the first variant. Although the second variant could be viewed as a conflation of (1) and (4) (so TCGNT 502; G. D. Fee, First Corinthians [NICNT], 796), it could also have arisen consciously, to guard against the notion that all whom Paul was addressing should regard themselves as true believers.

The third variant, prominent in the Western witnesses, may have arisen to counter those who would deny the final resurrection (so TCGNT 502).

In any event, since the fourth reading has the best credentials externally and best explains the rise of the others it should be adopted as the authentic wording here.

tn See the note on the word “asleep” in 15:6.

This explanation is from the NET Bible.
Not my favorite Bible, but the translators did their footwork and it shows.
NET Bible : The Biblical Studies Foundation

Saint Jerome had access to 30,000 manuscripts, and lots of help.

And today we have 10,000 Hand written Latin Manuscripts.
All have for 1 Cor 15:51
Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall all indeed rise again: but we shall not all be changed.
(Ecce mysterium vobis dico : omnes quidem resurgemus, sed non omnes immutabimur.)

 

[Enoch111]

Those are not Manuscripts but printed text.

And where -- pray tell -- did the printed texts come from? Today we can simply go to the printed texts and decide what is true and what is false.

 

[James Macbeth]

And where -- pray tell -- did the printed texts come from? Today we can simply go to the printed texts and decide what is true and what is false.

And Sixto-Clementine Vulgate is the best overall.

 

[Enoch111]

And Sixto-Clementine Vulgate is the best overall.

If you are a Catholic. Otherwise kindly read the preface to the KJB -- "The Translators to the Reader". That preface tells us all about the deficiencies of the Catholic bibles.

 

[James Macbeth]

I agree 100%, the corrupt schools of Alexandria Egypt and their mastermind in the heretic Origen who was banished for his Arian heresy

Origen corrupted the Greek texts in Alexandria and Caserea, and revised them to include his Arian, Gnostic, beliefs

The Greek manuscript Sinaticus is from the pen of Origen, that supports modern Bible versions

Kurt Aland and his creation of the (Novum Testamentum Graece) follows the work of Origen in Sinaticus, with Alands creation supporting modern versions, NIV, NASB, ESV, RSV, Etc

Total BS, how could one man corrupt thousands of hand written Manuscripts?

Do you have anymore jokes I could laugh at?

 

[Timtofly]

Our Lord Jesus says otherwise:
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ (Matthew 7:21-23)

Thus Saint Jerome is right in translating: not all shall be changed. 1 Cor 15:51

Those people were not raptured either. All those who will be raptured will be changed. That seems to not be your point at all.

You claim some raptured will not be changed. That is a lie.

 

[James Macbeth]

Those people were not raptured either. All those who will be raptured will be changed. That seems to not be your point at all.

You claim some raptured will not be changed. That is a lie.

Please provide quote. I never said that.

1 Cor 15:51 says not all shall be changed, meaning not all will be given the Beatific vision, thus changing them.
But all will be resurrect to be judged.

That why the next verse says:
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall rise again incorruptible: and we shall be changed.

The Rapture is so quick that when you blink your eyes, behold! you are in Heaven with a new incorruptible body and with the Saints.

Many people believe that you will go around floating like Marry Poppins...
Is that what you think?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your Bible is different...

Saint Jerome has it:
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh & blood cannot possess the Kingdom of God; neither shall corruption possess incorruption.
Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall all indeed rise again; but we shall not all be changed.
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet (for the trumpet shall sound) and the dead shall rise again incorruptible; and we shall be changed.

That is different than any other English translation that I've seen. Every other translation that I've seen indicates that we won't all die, but we will all be changed at the last trumpet. Jerome's translation butchers the text and makes it say something completely different. We know that we won't all die because other scripture like 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 indicates that the dead in Christ will rise when Christ comes and will be caught up to Christ, but it also says that believers who are alive and remain until then will be caught up as well. So, the idea that we will all die and be resurrected is not taught in scripture.

How does "Saint Jerome" translate 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17?

 

[James Macbeth]

That is different than any other English translation that I've seen. Every other translation that I've seen indicates that we won't all die, but we will all be changed at the last trumpet. Jerome's translation butchers the text and makes it say something completely different. We know that we won't all die because other scripture like 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 indicates that the dead in Christ will rise when Christ comes and will be caught up to Christ, but it also says that believers who are alive and remain until then will be caught up as well. So, the idea that we will all die and be resurrected is not taught in scripture.

How does "Saint Jerome" translate 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17?

Same as the KJB.

But 1Cor 15:51 does not say believers, you are adding that.

The KJB and most English translations have a Greek variant: but we will not all die, but we will all be changed. And the Greek variant can easily be translated as: not all will die with me....

And there are many Greek manuscripts that read exactly as Saint Jerome's.

 

[ewq1938]

That is different than any other English translation that I've seen. Every other translation that I've seen indicates that we won't all die, but we will all be changed at the last trumpet. Jerome's translation butchers the text and makes it say something completely different. We know that we won't all die because other scripture like 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 indicates that the dead in Christ will rise when Christ comes and will be caught up to Christ, but it also says that believers who are alive and remain until then will be caught up as well. So, the idea that we will all die and be resurrected is not taught in scripture.

Revelation 2 has this as well.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Same as the KJB.

Okay, so let's look at the KJB translation of 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 then.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Notice that it talks about the resurrection of the dead here just like 1 Cor 15:50-54 does, but it indicates that some will be alive at that point and will be caught up to Christ. So, they won't die. You need to interpret 1 Cor 15:50-54 accordingly instead of interpreting 1 Cor 15:50-54 in such a way that contradicts 1 Thess 4:14-17. In order to not contradict 1 Thess 4:14-17, the KJV translation of 1 Cor 15:50-54 must be correct because it says we will not all die, but we will all be changed. That lines up with 1 Thess 4:14-17 because that shows some people still being alive when Christ returns, but they don't die. Instead, they will be changed and then caught up to meet the Lord in the air along with the dead in Christ who are resurrected at that time.

But 1Cor 15:51 does not say believers, you are adding that.

The context of 1 Corinthians 15 centers around believes as can be seen in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 where Paul talked about the dead in Christ in particular being resurrected at Christ's second coming. He did not say anything about unbelievers anywhere in 1 Cor 15 since his focus was on believers there.

The KJB and most English translations have a Greek variant: but we will not all die, but we will all be changed. And the Greek variant can easily be translated as: not all will die with me....

And there are many Greek manuscripts that read exactly as Saint Jerome's.

Jerome's translation of 1 Cor 15:50-54 contradicts other scripture like 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. That's how you know it can't be correct.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 2 has this as well.

Has what exactly? I'm not sure what in Revelation 2 relates directly to what I was saying, but maybe I'm just not understanding what you mean.

 

[James Macbeth]

Okay, so let's look at the KJB translation of 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 then.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Notice that it talks about the resurrection of the dead here just like 1 Cor 15:50-54 does, but it indicates that some will be alive at that point and will be caught up to Christ. So, they won't die. You need to interpret 1 Cor 15:50-54 accordingly instead of interpreting 1 Cor 15:50-54 in such a way that contradicts 1 Thess 4:14-17. In order to not contradict 1 Thess 4:14-17, the KJV translation of 1 Cor 15:50-54 must be correct because it says we will not all die, but we will all be changed. That lines up with 1 Thess 4:14-17 because that shows some people still being alive when Christ returns, but they don't die. Instead, they will be changed and then caught up to meet the Lord in the air along with the dead in Christ who are resurrected at that time.

The context of 1 Corinthians 15 centers around believes as can be seen in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 where Paul talked about the dead in Christ in particular being resurrected at Christ's second coming. He did not say anything about unbelievers anywhere in 1 Cor 15 since his focus was on believers there.

Jerome's translation of 1 Cor 15:50-54 contradicts other scripture like 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. That's how you know it can't be correct.

Jerome does not contradict 1 Thes. 4:17, but wrote what Saint Paul wrote, which are more details about that Day in 1 Cor 15:51. We are already told in 4:17 that some will remain.

But we are not told in 1 Thes 4:17 about being changed on that day. So in 1 Cor 15:51, Saint Paul expands what he already said in 1Thes 4:17.

The Greek variant omits extra details: all will rise again, but not all will be changed. Instead it repeats what 1 Thes 4:17 has already stated.

Why that is I don't know. My educated guess is that the Letters to the Corinthians was first written in Latin, thus 10,000 hand written Manuscripts in Latin with no Variants, but in the Greek Manuscripts 4 variants exist.

A contradiction is the opposite, saying no one remained, and no one was changed.