If you found you were in the wrong faith, would you change?

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Robert Gwin

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Explain just what it is you are referring to and what you believe.

It might be a bit difficult to explain to you Scott, no disrespect intended, but it has to do with the future coming of Jesus. When Jesus returns, he is only going to remove the "goats" those that have been judged unworthy for life. Ps 37:9; 2 Thes 1:8.

Those who were judged righteous as you see will possess the earth. Since Jesus is only removing the wicked, the innumerable Christians that survive will never have to die as they have been judged righteous Rev 7:14. Of course this is our understanding of it, and it is logical based on those versed. Inherited death will no longer be an issue with the establishment of the Kingdom. Do you see where I am coming from Scott?
 

Robert Gwin

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Yahweh is God!

As the bible openly, clearly and unambiguously declares:

The Father is called Yahweh
The Son is called Yahweh
The spirit is called Yahweh!

Thank you for your honesty and frankness Ron. The Father is called Yahweh or Jehovah in English and is God. The son was called Jesus as a human on earth, and is still referred to in the Bible as such after his return to heaven. The holy spirit is not named sir.
 

Robert Gwin

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No, I did not say that He returned as the human Jesus! I said He returned as the glorified Son of God. He is the firstfuits of all to be resurrected.

Born mortal, raised immortal.
Born corruptible raised incorruptible

Once again, I speak what the bible says!

John 2:18-22
King James Version

18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

You believe the Bible is the INpired Word of God, but yet openly reject what Jesus says here? That is a contradiction.

I do not disagree with the first part Ron
No, I did not say that He returned as the human Jesus! I said He returned as the glorified Son of God. He is the firstfuits of all to be resurrected.

Born mortal, raised immortal.
Born corruptible raised incorruptible

We are in full agreement with this part of your post Ron.
 

Brakelite

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Basically the residence Brake, those who go to heaven are resurrected as a spirit being, whereas the Christians that inherit the earth will return in the flesh as it was meant to be.

It might be noted that all humans would have resided on the earth, but God chose to select from among humans Kings and Priests to rule under King Jesus over the earth. Since angels have not experienced what human life is like, I believe that was a very wise choice.
"Basically the residence" doesn't explain the metaphysical difference between what you term a "spiritual resurrection" and what others here believe a glorified human body, as appears to have been the case with Jesus after His resurrection and before His ascension. What evidence do you have that there was a change in the nature of Jesus' body? Why is it necessary to believe that Jesus ceased to be human and become a 'Spirit'.... Whatever that is.
 
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ScottA

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It might be a bit difficult to explain to you Scott, no disrespect intended, but it has to do with the future coming of Jesus. When Jesus returns, he is only going to remove the "goats" those that have been judged unworthy for life. Ps 37:9; 2 Thes 1:8.

Those who were judged righteous as you see will possess the earth. Since Jesus is only removing the wicked, the innumerable Christians that survive will never have to die as they have been judged righteous Rev 7:14. Of course this is our understanding of it, and it is logical based on those versed. Inherited death will no longer be an issue with the establishment of the Kingdom. Do you see where I am coming from Scott?
Yes, I suppose I do.

However, that utopia is not scriptural, not even fantastic enough, and not properly located:

John 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Thank you for your honesty and frankness Ron. The Father is called Yahweh or Jehovah in English and is God. The son was called Jesus as a human on earth, and is still referred to in the Bible as such after his return to heaven. The holy spirit is not named sir.

I have already given you teh verses where jesus is called Yahweh, and that He is declared god.

Yes the Spirit is named and I showed you that asw well! You just reject what god says when it contradicts the Watchtower.
 
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Ronald Nolette

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I do not disagree with the first part Ron


We are in full agreement with this part of your post Ron.

Except that it was in teh body He died in and went to teh grave! born corruptible, raised incorruptible. Showing us what we can look forward to when a true believer receives their new body.

You can't for teh Watchtower commands you to disobey Jesus and refuse to be born again.
 
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farouk

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Except that it was in teh body He died in and went to teh grave! born corruptible, raised incorruptible. Showing us what we can look forward to when a true believer receives their new body.

You can't for teh Watchtower commands you to disobey Jesus and refuse to be born again.
As per 1 Cor. 15, the Lord Jesus was not subject to death and decay when He laid down His life at the Cross, but yes He was raised incorruptible.
 

Robert Gwin

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"Basically the residence" doesn't explain the metaphysical difference between what you term a "spiritual resurrection" and what others here believe a glorified human body, as appears to have been the case with Jesus after His resurrection and before His ascension. What evidence do you have that there was a change in the nature of Jesus' body? Why is it necessary to believe that Jesus ceased to be human and become a 'Spirit'.... Whatever that is.

Although difficult to understand in many versions of the Bible, 1 Pet 3:18 states Jesus was raised a spirit. Paul tried to explain it as well in 1 Cor 15:44-50. Now on a common sense examination, was Jesus physical when he resided in heaven prior to coming? Was Jesus statement about flesh and blood not being able to inherit the heavenly Kingdom true or false? Did Jesus give his flesh and blood in behalf of the world? What was sacrificed, Jesus' life as a human which corresponded exactly to what Adam lost, or his infinitely superior life as a spirit being in heaven? Do you understand Brake? He did not come here to sacrifice his perfect heavenly life as God's son, rather he was sent here as a human to give his human life in behalf of mankind, and then he went back to his own life. In fact, because he was willing to do that, God placed him in the #2 position in heaven, he sit at God' own right hand sir.

Jesus did appear to his disciples in a real physical body as every recorded angel has done in the past, why? Simply put spirit beings are not discernable to fleshly humans. Was it his body? NO! Never was he recognized by any of his close friends, and while many do not find that to be strange, how can 11 intimate associates forget in less than 3 days what their best friend looked like. It is preposterous sir.
 

Robert Gwin

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Yes, I suppose I do.

However, that utopia is not scriptural, not even fantastic enough, and not properly located:

John 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

Who is you Scott? Jesus does not lie, and he did go do that.
 

Brakelite

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Although difficult to understand in many versions of the Bible, 1 Pet 3:18 states Jesus was raised a spirit. Paul tried to explain it as well in 1 Cor 15:44-50. Now on a common sense examination, was Jesus physical when he resided in heaven prior to coming? Was Jesus statement about flesh and blood not being able to inherit the heavenly Kingdom true or false? Did Jesus give his flesh and blood in behalf of the world? What was sacrificed, Jesus' life as a human which corresponded exactly to what Adam lost, or his infinitely superior life as a spirit being in heaven? Do you understand Brake? He did not come here to sacrifice his perfect heavenly life as God's son, rather he was sent here as a human to give his human life in behalf of mankind, and then he went back to his own life. In fact, because he was willing to do that, God placed him in the #2 position in heaven, he sit at God' own right hand sir.

Jesus did appear to his disciples in a real physical body as every recorded angel has done in the past, why? Simply put spirit beings are not discernable to fleshly humans. Was it his body? NO! Never was he recognized by any of his close friends, and while many do not find that to be strange, how can 11 intimate associates forget in less than 3 days what their best friend looked like. It is preposterous sir.
You are sadly mistaken of you think a human sacrifice sufficient for man's redemption. Mankind wasn't condemned and guilty for transgressing against human laws. The Ten Commandments, the law against which man sinned, is a divine law written with a divine finger on tablets made from the very throne of divinity. Only the death of a divine Being could atone for the transgression against divinity.
 

Robert Gwin

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I have already given you teh verses where jesus is called Yahweh, and that He is declared god.

Yes the Spirit is named and I showed you that asw well! You just reject what god says when it contradicts the Watchtower.

No sir, it is impossible for you since Jesus is Yeshua, not Yahweh. Try again if you wish, but it cannot be done. You have shown versions of Bibles that show Jesus is God, but you have to make your own mind up on whether they altered the verse or not. Like I pointed out, if Jesus is God, then he is a liar and what hope do we have? Time will tell.

I would really recommend you follow Jesus himself who told satan point blank, it is Jehovah your God you must worship and it is to Him alone render sacred service. But like I said, you have to make the choice, I did.
 

Ronald Nolette

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No sir, it is impossible for you since Jesus is Yeshua, not Yahweh. Try again if you wish, but it cannot be done. You have shown versions of Bibles that show Jesus is God, but you have to make your own mind up on whether they altered the verse or not. Like I pointed out, if Jesus is God, then he is a liar and what hope do we have? Time will tell.

I would really recommend you follow Jesus himself who told satan point blank, it is Jehovah your God you must worship and it is to Him alone render sacred service. But like I said, you have to make the choice, I did.

I only take what the bible says SIR!

I see you have fallen back on the old watchtower ploy- well all the versions who say Jesus is God have been altered.

I thinkg we have reached an end here. I cannot argue when you refuse to do independent study to see that the NWT is by the conclusion of nearly all Greek SCholarsa both learned and natural speakers, the worst translation of the bible available.

I am sure we shall tangle on another thread when you wish to post more Watchtower deception.
 

ScottA

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We should address this:
Jesus does not lie

No sir, it is impossible for you since Jesus is Yeshua, not Yahweh.
Jesus said:

Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength. "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. Revelation 1:12-18
And God said through the prophet Isaiah:

Thus says the LORD (Yᵊhōvâ), the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD (Yᵊhōvâ) of hosts: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6
 
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Brakelite

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We should address this:



Jesus said:

Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength. "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. Revelation 1:12-18
And God said through the prophet Isaiah:

Thus says the LORD (Yᵊhōvâ), the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD (Yᵊhōvâ) of hosts: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6
That description by John doesn't seem to be much like that of a spirit does it.
 
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Brakelite

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Although difficult to understand in many versions of the Bible, 1 Pet 3:18 states Jesus was raised a spirit. Paul tried to explain it as well in 1 Cor 15:44-50. Now on a common sense examination, was Jesus physical when he resided in heaven prior to coming? Was Jesus statement about flesh and blood not being able to inherit the heavenly Kingdom true or false? Did Jesus give his flesh and blood in behalf of the world? What was sacrificed, Jesus' life as a human which corresponded exactly to what Adam lost, or his infinitely superior life as a spirit being in heaven? Do you understand Brake? He did not come here to sacrifice his perfect heavenly life as God's son, rather he was sent here as a human to give his human life in behalf of mankind, and then he went back to his own life. In fact, because he was willing to do that, God placed him in the #2 position in heaven, he sit at God' own right hand sir.

Jesus did appear to his disciples in a real physical body as every recorded angel has done in the past, why? Simply put spirit beings are not discernable to fleshly humans. Was it his body? NO! Never was he recognized by any of his close friends, and while many do not find that to be strange, how can 11 intimate associates forget in less than 3 days what their best friend looked like. It is preposterous sir.
There is a whole farm of straw men here which you have resorted to in order to defend just one point of belief. They are unnecessary and superfluous to the discussion. For example, no-one is arguing about the nature of Christ before the incarnation. No-one of arguing that He gave his life to redeem man. No-one is arguing that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. But does it ever occur to you that there are explanations beyond what the Watchtower have taught you? Have you ever asked yourself why JWs aren't allowed to accept literature from those they visit? Have you ever considered that truth is deeper and more precious than anything you have heretofore encountered? Have you ever considered that what you think is deep understanding (compared to the world) is in reality only superficial? Have you ever considered that none of us understand the real deep things of God, and that we will h have all eternity to learn and never reach the end of knowledge?
Do you understand the relation of the spirit and mind, and how people experience out-of-body events, particularly at death, even though scripture declares death is a sleep?
Do you understand the occult, and how people can travel spiritually to distant realms and speak with demons and Satan himself?
Do you understand all there is to know of metaphysics, and how doing one seemingly simple act on one side of the planet has an effect on unrelated events the other side of the planet?
Do you understand how Jesus was able to walk through walls, yet could be touched, handled, and yet two disciples not recognize him, their eyes being 'holden that they couldn't recognize Him', (Luke 24:16) yet the disciples knew him on the beach when He cooked them a barbecue? (John 21)
Do you understand the difference between a glorified body, a body such as we have now, and a spirit? Do angels have bodies? Yes, yet they are spirits are they not? How does a spirit take Lot by the hand of he doesn't have a body?
There are questions and realities we don't understand. We ought not pontificate on subjects we do not, and cannot fathom. What we do know is that we will be resurrected, we will partake of food and wine in heaven, we will live in houses and triste to physical real life creatures in the new earth, yet be able to travel between stars and galaxies beyond our imagination. How? Well, the exciting thing will be discovering that, and many other things that our minds aren't up to understanding at present.
Will we have blood in our new glorified bodies? Maybe. I'm not sure. But when Jesus spoke of flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom, I don't think He was necessarily referring to actual physical flesh and blood, but rather the carnal nature. He was saying that sinners, except they repent and be born again, will die and not be resurrected to life, but to damnation.