If you found you were in the wrong faith, would you change?

[Ronald Nolette]

I am SO close to loosing my temper here:
Ronald, you say that you respect my beliefs, but yet you pride yourself in participating in "anti-cult" movement. That's an inherent contradiction: I'm a "Mormon". But not the "Mormonism" Water Martin told you about-- that's nothing but a huge straw man argument that has nothing to do with actual beliefs.

I am not paret of any anti-cult movement. I do not even know of any of these supposed movements!

Well as a Mormon, let me ask you one set of qustions. You can answer with simple yes or nos if you wish.

!. Do you believe Jesus is eternal God the Son.
2. do you believe that His death and REsurrection paid for your entire sin debt?
3. do you believe once you have trusted in His death and resurrection, you are saved forever?

I HAVE READ DOCTRINES ANDE COVENANTS, THE BOOK OF MORMON AND MANY OTHER MORMON PUBLICATIONS. \MOST OF THE OTHER STUFF IS KIND OF IRRELAVENT UNTIL THESE THREE QUESTIONS ARE SETTLED.

YOU CAN BLOW YOUR STACK IF YOU WISH, BUT I AM NOT ANGRY WITH YOU. I DON'T HATE YOU BECUAE YOU ARE MORMON.

I HAVE GREAT RESPECTR FOR GLERNN BECK, AND BELIEVED HE IS SAVED, THOUGH WE WILL STRONGLY DISAGREE ON MANY ISSUES.

I think the fact I mentioned Walter Martin as a tool, and not god to be accepted 100% blindly has completely clouded your emotions and cause you to see from a strong bias. Don't. Please tell me what group is an anti-cult movement.

I just belong to a local independent Baptist church . Our goal is to exalt God and try to see as many saved as we can.

Walter mARTIN IS MEREWLY LIKE A SCREWDRIVER IN A BOX OF MANY TOOLS BELIEVERS SHOULD HAVE TO ANSWER THOSE WHO ARE TRAPPED IN FALSE DOCTRINE. tHAT IS ALL!

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I am not paret of any anti-cult movement. I do not even know of any of these supposed movements!

Well as a Mormon, let me ask you one set of qustions. You can answer with simple yes or nos if you wish.

!. Do you believe Jesus is eternal God the Son.
2. do you believe that His death and REsurrection paid for your entire sin debt?
3. do you believe once you have trusted in His death and resurrection, you are saved forever?

I HAVE READ DOCTRINES ANDE COVENANTS, THE BOOK OF MORMON AND MANY OTHER MORMON PUBLICATIONS. \MOST OF THE OTHER STUFF IS KIND OF IRRELAVENT UNTIL THESE THREE QUESTIONS ARE SETTLED.

YOU CAN BLOW YOUR STACK IF YOU WISH, BUT I AM NOT ANGRY WITH YOU. I DON'T HATE YOU BECUAE YOU ARE MORMON.

I HAVE GREAT RESPECTR FOR GLERNN BECK, AND BELIEVED HE IS SAVED, THOUGH WE WILL STRONGLY DISAGREE ON MANY ISSUES.

I think the fact I mentioned Walter Martin as a tool, and not god to be accepted 100% blindly has completely clouded your emotions and cause you to see from a strong bias. Don't. Please tell me what group is an anti-cult movement.

I just belong to a local independent Baptist church . Our goal is to exalt God and try to see as many saved as we can.

Walter mARTIN IS MEREWLY LIKE A SCREWDRIVER IN A BOX OF MANY TOOLS BELIEVERS SHOULD HAVE TO ANSWER THOSE WHO ARE TRAPPED IN FALSE DOCTRINE. tHAT IS ALL!

I'm going to respond to this via PM.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I am happy your watchtower revealed that to you Ron, I think I will stick to the Bible however sir. Jesus said Jehovah's word is truth, best pay attention to it.

I have no Watchtower. But the Bible did not teach you that the church is a sect or organization- but a living breathing organism called saved people.

I do not rely on a headquarters writing a missalette to tell me what to believe like the Watchtower does.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I do not know what your watchtower teaches sir, but Jehovah's witnesses believe that Jesus was enthroned as King in 1914, satan and the demons were cast to the earth, and we entered into the last days of this system. We put into print the end of the times of the Gentiles would end in that year in 1879. Jesus really gave those signs to his disciples for them to understand alone Mat 13:11 but even most unbelievers are able to discern the signs now Ron.

Most faiths out there believe we are at the end of this system and that Jesus can return at any time, so if your watchtower is unable to discern that as of now, perhaps you should get a new one sir.

Well after 1930 they believed that but until at least 1930 they taqught Jesus was enthroned as King on earth in 1874!

anbd where is He enthroned as King? He certainly is a lousy king don't you think? If He is ruling the earth now, the Watchtower version of Jesus is very impotent. The earth and Satan are growing str4onger and stronger in evil under His rule. that is not what Gods Word teaches.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Then wouldn't you consider it wise to examine what it says? Making the scene is for those up in the haight ashbury area, but we Christians prefer to dig on the Bible sir.

In all seriousness, the gathering of the anointed began with the outpouring of the holy spirit in 33CE. The covenant is with them sir and Jesus clearly included the faithful 11 in that covenant actually making that covenant with them Luke 22:28,29.

Now I will say this, we believe the first resurrection happened shortly after Jesus was enthroned, but there is no way to prove that, and the account of it in 1 Thes seems to indicate it will happen during his return, so I am at a loss on this. We are not Inspired of God, and subject to error for sure.

Your heaight ashbury comment is nothing but a red herring and irrelavent.

There is no covenant made in Luke 22.

So you believe teh second resurrection will not take place until 2914? The bible separates the two resurrections by 1,000 years. Once again bob you do not hold to the Scriptures, but the Watchtower tells you what teh Scriptures say.

Tell me, Does the Watchtrower still hold that if one stops reading Watchtower material and read just the bible alone- they will be in darkness in just a few years?

"All who want to understand the Bible should appreciate that the "greatly diversified wisdom of God" can become known only through Jehovah's channel of communication, the faithful and discreet slave." (The Watchtower; Oct. 1, 1994; p. 8).

"We have the opportunity to show love for our brothers who take the lead in the congregation or in connection with Jehovah's visible organization worldwide. This includes being loyal to "the faithful and discreet slave." (Matthew 24:45-47) Let us face the fact that no matter how much Bible reading we have done, we would never have learned the truth on our own." (The Watchtower, December 1, 1990, p. 19).

"No matter where we may live on earth, God's Word continues to serve as a light to our path and a lamp to our roadway as to our conduct and beliefs. (Ps. 119:105) But Jehovah God has also provided his visible organization, his "faithful and discreet slave," made up of spirit anointed ones, to help Christians in all nations to understand and apply properly the Bible in their lives. Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do." (The Watchtower; December 1, 1981, p. 27).

"They say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such 'Bible reading,' they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom's clergy were teaching 100 years ago,..." (Watchtower; Aug. 15, 1981; p. 29).

“Furthermore, not only do we find that people cannot see the Divine Plan in studying the Bible by itself, but we see, also, that if anyone lays the Scripture Studies aside, even after he has used them, after he has become familiar with them, after he had read them for ten years – if he lays them aside and ignores them and goes to the Bible alone, though he has understood his Bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness. On the other hand, if he had merely read the Scriptures Studies with their references, and had not read a page of the Bible, as such, he would be in the light at the end of the two years, because he would have the light of the Scriptures.”
(The Watchtower, September 15, 1910, pg. 298)

Isn't that amazing????????? Just reading Gods INspired Word, you come up with teh very doctrines I holde! But reading Watchtower Marerial- without Scriptures your leaders say you will walk in th elight! Which goes against Psalm 119!



So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet? …This “prophet” was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah’s Christian Witnesses… Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a ‘prophet’ of God. It is another thing to prove it.”
(The Watchtower, April 1, 1972)

“You will be interested to learn that God has on earth a people, all of whom are prophets, or witnesses for God. In fact, they are known throughout the world as Jehovah’s Witnesses.”
(Awake, June 8, 1986)

“If you repudiate Pastor Russell and his work, this is equivalent to a repudiation of the Lord!”
(The Watchtower, May 1, 1922)

 

[Robert Gwin]

I would think you already knew the answer to this question by now Robert. Please don't pretend to be my teacher cause you aren't...sir.

Yes maam, I do. You certainly cannot teach anyone who is unwilling to learn. Have a great one Nancy. If you ever want to know anything about us, or would like to discuss anything feel free to ask. Bob

 

[Robert Gwin]

Every generation has come to extinction...which was shortened long ago.

See here in Mark, the same word as Matthew 24:22 in past tense:

Mark 13:20
And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.​

No sir, some say dinosaurs existed and became extinct, which if that is the case it basically nullifies God as He said we inherited death from Adam. But man has in his entire history never has been close to extinction.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I have no Watchtower. But the Bible did not teach you that the church is a sect or organization- but a living breathing organism called saved people.

I do not rely on a headquarters writing a missalette to tell me what to believe like the Watchtower does.

I think you accomplish that well on your own sir. Jesus assigned the faithful slave, and you are free to not pay attention. You have made it clear you do not think Jehovah's Witnesses are Jehovah's witnesses, but as well fed as we are we certainly fit the profile. Since we are so deep into the end times, the faithful slave is well established, perhaps you might identify who you think the slave is.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Your heaight ashbury comment is nothing but a red herring and irrelavent.

There is no covenant made in Luke 22.

So you believe teh second resurrection will not take place until 2914? The bible separates the two resurrections by 1,000 years. Once again bob you do not hold to the Scriptures, but the Watchtower tells you what teh Scriptures say.

Tell me, Does the Watchtrower still hold that if one stops reading Watchtower material and read just the bible alone- they will be in darkness in just a few years?

"All who want to understand the Bible should appreciate that the "greatly diversified wisdom of God" can become known only through Jehovah's channel of communication, the faithful and discreet slave." (The Watchtower; Oct. 1, 1994; p. 8).

"We have the opportunity to show love for our brothers who take the lead in the congregation or in connection with Jehovah's visible organization worldwide. This includes being loyal to "the faithful and discreet slave." (Matthew 24:45-47) Let us face the fact that no matter how much Bible reading we have done, we would never have learned the truth on our own." (The Watchtower, December 1, 1990, p. 19).

"No matter where we may live on earth, God's Word continues to serve as a light to our path and a lamp to our roadway as to our conduct and beliefs. (Ps. 119:105) But Jehovah God has also provided his visible organization, his "faithful and discreet slave," made up of spirit anointed ones, to help Christians in all nations to understand and apply properly the Bible in their lives. Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do." (The Watchtower; December 1, 1981, p. 27).

"They say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such 'Bible reading,' they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom's clergy were teaching 100 years ago,..." (Watchtower; Aug. 15, 1981; p. 29).

“Furthermore, not only do we find that people cannot see the Divine Plan in studying the Bible by itself, but we see, also, that if anyone lays the Scripture Studies aside, even after he has used them, after he has become familiar with them, after he had read them for ten years – if he lays them aside and ignores them and goes to the Bible alone, though he has understood his Bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness. On the other hand, if he had merely read the Scriptures Studies with their references, and had not read a page of the Bible, as such, he would be in the light at the end of the two years, because he would have the light of the Scriptures.”
(The Watchtower, September 15, 1910, pg. 298)

Isn't that amazing????????? Just reading Gods INspired Word, you come up with teh very doctrines I holde! But reading Watchtower Marerial- without Scriptures your leaders say you will walk in th elight! Which goes against Psalm 119!



So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet? …This “prophet” was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah’s Christian Witnesses… Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a ‘prophet’ of God. It is another thing to prove it.”
(The Watchtower, April 1, 1972)

“You will be interested to learn that God has on earth a people, all of whom are prophets, or witnesses for God. In fact, they are known throughout the world as Jehovah’s Witnesses.”
(Awake, June 8, 1986)

“If you repudiate Pastor Russell and his work, this is equivalent to a repudiation of the Lord!”
(The Watchtower, May 1, 1922)

It was just a joke sir, we try to be pleasant and put people at ease, making a comedic statement usually brings a smile to peoples face.
The faithful slave was assigned to feed Jesus' sheep. We are very well fed sir Isa 2:2,3. Things are revealed progressively Dan 12:4; Pro 4:18 and we will not have absolute truth until after Jesus' return. The faithful slave is a Biblical fact, but identification of what or who it is is opinion. As I said Jesus feeds his sheep through that slave he has assigned during his absence. I am perfectly willing to listen to whom you believe that is Ron.

So do you know any other denomination that seemed to be formed in the last days that is fed as well as Jehovah's witnesses are.

 

[ScottA]

No sir, some say dinosaurs existed and became extinct, which if that is the case it basically nullifies God as He said we inherited death from Adam. But man has in his entire history never has been close to extinction.

You are reading the words with assumptions based on the life of men and their understanding. The point is: Everyone dies, and if man lived longer and were left to his own devises we would heap more upon our own judgement than God has considered merciful. In the beginning, in that time of the fall, men lived longer which only contributed more to their evil doing, and after destroying most of man with the flood, God has been all the more merciful and shortened the times of men.

But don't be deceived, it all began and ends in Christ, which He has finished. All that remains are the times of the gentiles waning as the days of Noah.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I think you accomplish that well on your own sir. Jesus assigned the faithful slave, and you are free to not pay attention. You have made it clear you do not think Jehovah's Witnesses are Jehovah's witnesses, but as well fed as we are we certainly fit the profile. Since we are so deep into the end times, the faithful slave is well established, perhaps you might identify who you think the slave is.

They take a parable and create a massive doctrine to subordinate you into spiritual slavery ----sir!

Yes you are well fed! but it is not divine spiritual food, but false doctrine that will turn to eternal rot for those who do not repent.

I have no qualm with many JW's. They are diligent, hardworking, honest and generally nice people. but nonew of those saves a pserson. Nor being religious!

Like Paul said of the jews, I in sorrow say this about sincere JW's:

Romans 10
King James Version

10 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It was just a joke sir, we try to be pleasant and put people at ease, making a comedic statement usually brings a smile to peoples face.
The faithful slave was assigned to feed Jesus' sheep. We are very well fed sir Isa 2:2,3. Things are revealed progressively Dan 12:4; Pro 4:18 and we will not have absolute truth until after Jesus' return. The faithful slave is a Biblical fact, but identification of what or who it is is opinion. As I said Jesus feeds his sheep through that slave he has assigned during his absence. I am perfectly willing to listen to whom you believe that is Ron.

So do you know any other denomination that seemed to be formed in the last days that is fed as well as Jehovah's witnesses are.

Then my bad. It is hard to know on the printed page without a hint.

I believe that is exactly what Paul said in Ephesians 4:

Ephesians 4:11-14
King James Version

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;



But all teh confusion and disarray in organized religion was long prophesied. We have but one truth to turn to, to verify the teachings of any man or organization, or self proclaimed discreet faithful slave class- The word of God!

I would ask you to ponder this statement. Even the leaders of the Watchtower organization admitted, that if one diligently just reads the word of God, they revert back to the "doctrines of Christendom" that have been around for nearly 2 millenia.

Think on that!!! Paul declared the Word of God (not some magazine or commentary book) is given by inspiration of God and it is the bible alone that is profitable for doctrine, rebuke, reproof and instruction in righteousness, so the man of God would be mature furnished to all good works!

the Watchtower pays lip service to this while telling you do not trust the bible apart from their readings.

Gods Word said Jesus physically rose from the dead ( John 2 as I have posted) but the Watchtower says no He didn't!

John 2:18-22
King James Version

18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Why don't you believe the Words of Jesus Himself here???????

I listen to my Pastor, but verify His teachings with the Word of God.

 

[Robert Gwin]

You are reading the words with assumptions based on the life of men and their understanding. The point is: Everyone dies, and if man lived longer and were left to his own devises we would heap more upon our own judgement than God has considered merciful. In the beginning, in that time of the fall, men lived longer which only contributed more to their evil doing, and after destroying most of man with the flood, God has been all the more merciful and shortened the times of men.

But don't be deceived, it all began and ends in Christ, which He has finished. All that remains are the times of the gentiles waning as the days of Noah.

Did you know Scott, that in the future there will be people alive who will never underwent death? I think you might be excited to hear that, I know I certainly was when I heard it.

 

[Robert Gwin]

They take a parable and create a massive doctrine to subordinate you into spiritual slavery ----sir!

Yes you are well fed! but it is not divine spiritual food, but false doctrine that will turn to eternal rot for those who do not repent.

I have no qualm with many JW's. They are diligent, hardworking, honest and generally nice people. but nonew of those saves a pserson. Nor being religious!

Like Paul said of the jews, I in sorrow say this about sincere JW's:

Romans 10
King James Version

10 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Lets examine if our beliefs line up with Scripture sir.

I say Jehovah is God, who do you teach is God Ron?

 

[Robert Gwin]

Then my bad. It is hard to know on the printed page without a hint.

I believe that is exactly what Paul said in Ephesians 4:

Ephesians 4:11-14
King James Version

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;



But all teh confusion and disarray in organized religion was long prophesied. We have but one truth to turn to, to verify the teachings of any man or organization, or self proclaimed discreet faithful slave class- The word of God!

I would ask you to ponder this statement. Even the leaders of the Watchtower organization admitted, that if one diligently just reads the word of God, they revert back to the "doctrines of Christendom" that have been around for nearly 2 millenia.

Think on that!!! Paul declared the Word of God (not some magazine or commentary book) is given by inspiration of God and it is the bible alone that is profitable for doctrine, rebuke, reproof and instruction in righteousness, so the man of God would be mature furnished to all good works!

the Watchtower pays lip service to this while telling you do not trust the bible apart from their readings.

Gods Word said Jesus physically rose from the dead ( John 2 as I have posted) but the Watchtower says no He didn't!

John 2:18-22
King James Version

18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Why don't you believe the Words of Jesus Himself here???????

I listen to my Pastor, but verify His teachings with the Word of God.

I understand Ron, I try to put a smiley face when kidding. It is impossible to read body language in print for the most part. In another post I have offered to discuss our teachings lining up with Scripture. We disagree on this point to it's exhaustion, we teach Jesus returned to his previous life, and you basically state he returned as the human Jesus. I understand your evidence for a bodily resurrection, but do not believe the Bible contradicts itself, and therefore I side with the spiritual resurrection.

 

[Brakelite]

I side with the spiritual resurrection

What is the difference Robert, between a spiritual resurrection and a physical one? And what evidence do you have for the spiritual as opposed to, well, human?

 

[ScottA]

Did you know Scott, that in the future there will be people alive who will never underwent death? I think you might be excited to hear that, I know I certainly was when I heard it.

Explain just what it is you are referring to and what you believe.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Lets examine if our beliefs line up with Scripture sir.

I say Jehovah is God, who do you teach is God Ron?

Yahweh is God!

As the bible openly, clearly and unambiguously declares:

The Father is called Yahweh
The Son is called Yahweh
The spirit is called Yahweh!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I understand Ron, I try to put a smiley face when kidding. It is impossible to read body language in print for the most part. In another post I have offered to discuss our teachings lining up with Scripture. We disagree on this point to it's exhaustion, we teach Jesus returned to his previous life, and you basically state he returned as the human Jesus. I understand your evidence for a bodily resurrection, but do not believe the Bible contradicts itself, and therefore I side with the spiritual resurrection.

No, I did not say that He returned as the human Jesus! I said He returned as the glorified Son of God. He is the firstfuits of all to be resurrected.

Born mortal, raised immortal.
Born corruptible raised incorruptible

Once again, I speak what the bible says!

John 2:18-22
King James Version

18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

You believe the Bible is the INpired Word of God, but yet openly reject what Jesus says here? That is a contradiction.

 

[Robert Gwin]

What is the difference Robert, between a spiritual resurrection and a physical one? And what evidence do you have for the spiritual as opposed to, well, human?

Basically the residence Brake, those who go to heaven are resurrected as a spirit being, whereas the Christians that inherit the earth will return in the flesh as it was meant to be.

It might be noted that all humans would have resided on the earth, but God chose to select from among humans Kings and Priests to rule under King Jesus over the earth. Since angels have not experienced what human life is like, I believe that was a very wise choice.