If You Believe Your Denomination Is...

[BarneyFife]

That is not what I assume.

Regarding the first paragraph in my post #230, I explained why a hierarchy is required in an organism and stated the fact it exists in the courts of kings and religion. Do you agree or disagree?

What I agree with is that the defenders of Catholicism on this forum have an absolutely inexhaustible amount of stamina and rhetoric, and I do not. I'm tired. But not too tired to say that apostolic succession is a myth. I've read the refutations and I didn't memorize them but I concur with them. Matthias was a replacement (in fulfillment of prophecy), not a successor, and a foundation (which includes OT prophets, btw) is built upon, not succeeded. It is not a successive structure. And the chief cornerstone is Christ, not Peter. (Ephesians 2:20) Amen and happy trails to you.

 

[Michael1985]

If you believe your denomination is teaching something that is closer to the truth than others, does that necessarily mean you are narrow-minded or elitist or, worse yet, look down on those of other faiths?

No. It just means that said denomination's teachings most closely mirror your understanding of what Scripture teaches. It'll never be 100% because no one who identifies with a given denomination ever agrees with its teaching on everything.

 

[BarneyFife]

I never said St. Peter is the chief cornerstone, rather chosen to be the Head in the ecclesiastical hierarchy by Jesus (Mat. 16:18), the divine Head of this mystical Body (Col. 1:18), and instructed to feed His sheep (Jn. 21:15-17).

The fact St. Matthias was elected to replace an apostle before him by the other apostles is what makes it a succession. Therefore, this example proves apostolic succession is not a myth.

It's like you didn't even read my post.

 

[Addy]

It's like you didn't even read my post.

That is what happens with these defenders of Catholicism.... they eat ALL the cookies.

 

[mjrhealth]

I said he was chosen to be the one who Jesus would build His Church upon,

He never did, it is by revelation, to whom God reveals, and that has being left out, and why so few belong to His Church, but fill mens pews.

 

[mjrhealth]

Clarify, please.

Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Luk_10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

but who need Jesus or the Holy Spirit, men have religion and the bible, and are so smart they can figure out God, or is that proud and arrogant., doubt its the former.

 

[Addy]

I am reading a very interesting article that states Rome is Babylon
and that the Roman Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon.
I guess it all boils down to interpretation.

 

[mjrhealth]

Which men are you referring to?

Anyone who is willing to listen but so few are. All you have to do is ask, what are you afraid of, that He may actually answer you, than you too can be could an idiot and a fool for His sake,.

 

[mjrhealth]

Such as?

Here we go the wheels of the bus go round and round,

 

[mjrhealth]

That does not answer the question.

You are not asking questions your just playing games.

 

[mjrhealth]

How is asking you for examples of the type of people you are referring to not a question, and a game?

Ï Answered

Anyone who is willing to listen but so few are. All you have to do is ask, what are you afraid of, that He may actually answer you, than you too can be could an idiot and a fool for His sake,.

But I guess you are not one who does, or you would not have asked that question.

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

 

[mjrhealth]

I asked for specific examples of the types of people you are referring to.

Why than all you will do is seek to condemn. I know a few who, one is on this forum and there possibly others, I have a friend who does, she went to a church where the pastor was so glad to have her till he discovered she really did than he sought to destroy her to his own destruction. Thats what christians are good at. I have never seeing one so badly beaten up by the enemy for her faith, worse part is, christians do the worst damage.

What was it Jesus said,

Mar 8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.

 

[mjrhealth]

What about me drove you to assume I would "seek to condemn?"

I guess we will see wher you stand, post 72 and 73

If this is all christianty has

 

[mjrhealth]

That does not answer my latest question.

Than I have no idea what you are asking for.

 

[BarneyFife]

My reply (#335) directly responded to the points in your post.

With doubletalk and denial

 

[BarneyFife]

No. It just means that said denomination's teachings most closely mirror your understanding of what Scripture teaches. It'll never be 100% because no one who identifies with a given denomination ever agrees with its teaching on everything.

My experience is exactly the opposite of what you pose here. Just sayin'. My church has no creed. Just a statement of detailed beliefs (all of which I firmly believe) that is not enforced except in some instances on the clergy. I was converted from my childhood faith at age 26. My understanding of what Scripture taught before that was vastly different. :)

 

[amadeus]

You are not being unreasonable or elitist. So, which denomination is closer to teaching the truth?

One must first consider in an organism, a hierarchy is required, so that it may be really active, and wholesome, that is, someone who commands, someone who transmits orders, and those who obey. That is what happens in the courts of kings, as well as in religions. In religions, even if they are so impure, there is always a chief, his ministers, the servants of the ministers, and lastly the believers. A pontiff cannot act by himself. A king cannot act by himself.

Jesus laid the groundwork for His Church by gathering the first apostles and disciples and preparing the twelve apostles for ministering to souls in word and deed. The apostle, St. Peter, was chosen to be the one who Jesus would build His Church upon, meaning chosen to be the Head in the ecclesiastical hierarchy (Mat. 16:18), by the divine Head of this mystical Body (Col. 1:18), and instructed to feed His sheep (Jn. 21:15-17).

St. Peter and the other apostles elected the disciple St. Mathias to replace Judas the Iscariot in ministry and apostleship (Act. 1:24-26). St. Peter instructed elected elders (πρεσβύτερος [presbuteros]), whilst referring to himself as a fellow elder (συμπρεσβύτερος [sumpresbuteros]), to feed God's flock, or take care of it (1 Peter 5:1). How many flocks, or folds, did Jesus speak of? One (Jn. 10:16).

The line of the succession of Peter and his ministers continues to this day within the Church. The only Church that traces back to St. Peter and the other first apostles and disciples is the Catholic Church, thus it is not a "denomination" of Christianity, as in "a branch of any religion." This sentiment may leave a bad taste in mouths, but it is a biblical and historical truth.

Amadeus said:
And did not Judaism trace back to Moses meeting the Lord God on the mountain? Should we all not then return to that law given to Moses so as to be closer to teaching the truth?

Technically, the "founder" of Judaism was Abraham. It is called the first "Abrahamic" religion. The codified rules and rituals of the religion were taught to Moses, but as I said, Abraham was first in that regard, but the topic of Judaism is beside the point.

I am not arguing the Catholic Church is the Church Jesus established because it is the oldest rather because it traces back to Him and He is the One Who fulfilled the prophecies set in place by the old Jewish faith, instituted a new covenant, and laid the groundwork for His Church.

Regarding the first paragraph in my post #230, I explained why a hierarchy is required in an organism and stated the fact it exists in the courts of kings and religion. Do you agree or disagree?

I agree that God has an order. One might say that within His order, there is a hierarchy, but types and shadows are still just that. Which church, if any, of the ones men name as churches is the one that is precisely in God order? Which one, if any, has moved from type or shadow to Reality? Which one is more than an indefinite black shadow without the prescribed color and detail of the Body of Christ? Like the OT, are not they, the visible churches with their prescribed less than complete or fuzzy or erroneous orders, all also but shadows... although some may indeed be more perfectly formed shadows?

Which man [not church group] is able to see the Face of the Head so clearly that he does not die. Remember the warning Moses received when he asked to see the Glory of God? Without proper eye salve who can look on His face today and not die? Will the position of pastor or minister or parish priest or bishop assure any man that he has the proper eye salve? Will belonging to this assembly/church or that one give him such assurance no matter how correct their stated doctrines appear to be?

But do you not see that each man without Life, the Life that Jesus brought , must be dead, or remain dead, or die?

"And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen." Ex 33:20-23

"Where there is no vision, the people perish:.." Prov 29:18

"I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see." Rev 3:18

What is to be seen beyond the shadows?

Should we not be pursuing the Reality, desiring to see it, to see Him "face to face"?

3,000 years ago, David sought it! What was the reality that Moses was unable to see?

"When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek." Psalm 27:8

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face:..." I Cor 13:12

How do we proceed toward that "face to face" vision in a church which is in the shadows and is speaking of the shadows instead of Reality?

Where is the eyesalve?

 

[BarneyFife]

I am still awaiting your counter-arguments to post #335.

The counter-arguments to post #335 precede post #335. You didn't answer them except with literal doubletalk and denial. I'm not playing the game.

 

[BarneyFife]

Which denomination is that? What are the detailed beliefs?

As I see it, I have two options here. I can give you the information you want so you can start googling and flood me with some canned refutations and scandals or I can decline and be accused of cowardice or deceptiveness. I'm not playing the game. You've derailed this thread for long enough. Please go away.

 

[BarneyFife]

What literal double talk?

the fact he was elected to replace an apostle before him by the other apostles is what makes it a succession.