If We Protestants Truly Hated Catholics...

[Heb 13:8]

That you seem to number 'religious' amongst unbelievers is your error..

Philip, do the sheep or the wolves have the Holy Spirit and His blood in Acts 20? Depart from me, ye wolves and workers of iniquity..

Matt 7:15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.

Matt 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Acts 20:28-29 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. 29I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well fortunately for humans they still have hope, unlike demons who preach non-osas through gullible religious minds.

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.

Why stop there?
Why not show the verse in CONTEXT with the entire passage??

James 2:20-26
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”

See how a person is justified by WORKS and not by faith alone.

And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?

For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.

Cherry-picking Scripture as you do will get you NOWHERE . . .

 

[Philip James]

Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood

You realise of course, that hes talking to the presbyters, the bishops, the shephards of the church, here do you not?

This is also why Paul tells Timothy ' be careful who you lay hands on'

Peace!

 

[Heb 13:8]

You realise of course, that hes talking to the presbyters, the bishops, the shephards of the church, here do you not?

No, he's referring to the body of Christ, those who have the Holy Spirit and are covered under His blood. These are those who have believed and confessed in the death, burial, resurrection. John 3:16, Rom 10:9. Acts 2:1-4 is prior to Acts 20. God bless.

 

[Philip James]

No

Ok, just cut that part out then...

 

[Nancy]

I'll give you a hint: it's got something to do with "St. Peter's toe (formerly belonging to the god Jupiter before the nameplate was changed) having been literally kissed off by countless processions of millions of Catholic faithful.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Ok, just cut that part out then...

?

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, do consider that the fellow board member, Grams , had believed it for why Grams left the CC.

She had to have stopped believing this at some point or she never would have left the CC! I also reached the point where it was difficult for me to believe that my sins were forgiven by telling them to a priest.

If you consider that on pg 222 of #837 where the Catholic catechism teaches that although incorporated into the Catholic Church and doing all the sacraments, if the believer does not persevere in charity, they are not saved, then how can any Catholic NOT think they are going to hell if they do not go to the confessionals when everything they do in the church is just as important for salvation?

The page number is never given for the CCC.
Here is paragraph no. 837:

837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"

I happen to believe that the N.T. teaches possible loss of salvation if God's laws are not followed...and which laws did Jesus make a point of?
Love God.
Love your neighbor as yourself.

Without love we are but a clanging bell; without love we cannot obey God and work good deeds while in this life.

So, yes, I do agree with the highlighted above.

Well, again, how can any priest not believe the loss of salvation; even BreadofLife believes one can lose salvation so he is in a conundrum for judging Catholics as lazy for not reading the Bible when the Catholic catechism pretty much over ride what the Bible says "if otherwise" as taught by the Catholic Church since Catholics are to rely on the Church for the final say on what the Bible says. Their catechism trumps Bible.

The Catechism does not trump the bible; I'd say that it uses the bible for references but it also uses other sources such as Papal docs and writings of church fathers (early theologians). It does explain what the CC believes and teaches NOW. In 2018,,,not hundreds of years ago. I'd also say that even though the bible is still at the top, Tradition is also used by the CC. By Tradition, they mean what has been passed down by these early theologians and other writings by the early Christians. I can't think of any right now, but it would be easy enough to look it up if you wanted these sources. They are extra-biblical writings.

Being taught to rely in the "wisdom" of those who claim they have read that Bible, when in fact they are trained to take the Catechism over whatever else that the Bible opposes or does not support that which is in the Catechism, it is a wonder how a Catholic cannot believe they can lose their salvation.

I agree with you to a certain point. I do want to repeat that I'm Protestant and have been for many many years, and I DO believe that it's possible to lose salvation. Not easy to do, but some who have claimed to be believers have left the faith. The explanation is that they were never saved to begin with...we can't know that.

Not in God's eyes when they believe that one time sacrifice for sins is being made present again so they can receive it again, thus treating the blood of the Son on par with the blood of goats and bulls, no... God will be wroth with those people, but as God judge, they are still His people, thus saved, but it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

I've asked about 3 priests I know personally (one is also a monk) and they have ASSURED me that Jesus is NOT presented again as a sacrifice at each Mass. What they explain to me is that it's as if we were standing at the cross...it is represented as a memorial, not RE-PRESENTED as a sacrifice again. If you care to read about this as it seems you're interested, it starts in the CCC at number 1356. (under Eucharistic Celebration in the index).

Lutherans have not dropped the term sacrament when they left the Catholic Church. They even believe His Presence is in the bread and the wine. I saw one Methodist church perform communion like the Mass. My former Presbyterian church had begun communion with, "We come into His Presence today..." as if He was not already within us since we had first believed the gospel when we were saved. So there is a lot of Catholic left in communion that needs pruning for people, including Catholics, to see our faith in Jesus Christ as standing apart from the dead works of the CC.

I hate to write what I'm not sure about, but I do remember reading that Luther believed in transubstantiation even after leaving the CC.
Maybe these churches just mean that we come into His presence in a special way...
Maybe the change is in US instead of in Jesus being there since we devote ourselves wholly to the liturgy?

That is why I cannot point any Catholic to go to any Protestant churches, but I can point them to go to the Father by going to Jesus Christ for life.

Since obviously, no guarantee is given by the Catholic Church since all the works within that "savior " is dependent on the participants, how long will it be before the rest of the Catholics see the CC for the rip off that the CC is? There is no joy of salvation in it.

But some people need the structure of a church. When I know someone is leaving the church -- last person I know was about 4 years ago -- I always tell them to leave the church but not to leave God (the CC). They say YES, but I always wonder. As to the church being a rip-off...I know many who believe this. The CC has made many mistakes and is still making many mistakes; at least here where I live.

So what does the scripture point to for life?

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me......13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber......7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

The Catholic Church over the centuries has propped herself in between the believers and Jesus Christ in being that thief and taught to go to her for life instead of the Son, thus qualifying for the descriptive title of being one of the antichrists in the world. That is why they are to leave it for their faith to shine in Him.

Here I have to agree with you 100%.
Jesus is taught now.
But too little, too late?
Yes. I do think so.
The Holy Spirit has always done His work, but I would have to say that much joy has been withheld from Catholics that depended on the church and not on our Lord.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Uh huh - and what your abject ignorance won't allow you to understand is that:
a. As many as 90% of the general public was functionally illiterate and had ZERO use for a written Bible.

b. Bibles were HANDWRITTEN in the 12th and 13th centuries. Because of this - they were VERY expensive and VERY difficult to come by.

c. The editing and spurious copies being made of the Bible during this time by the rich, educated people who could afford them resulted in all sorts of errors and Scriptural perversions.

The declarations made by the Church were an effort to HALT these spurious copies being made - NOT to keep the Bible "away" from the public who couldn't read it anyway, Einstein . . .

Do your HOMEWORK.

Imagine that.
And the romanists made no effort to educate the general populace so that they could read the Bible.
God wanted them to have it all to themselves.
Oh nice and convenient.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I HOPE you do - but you won't get there by being disobedient.

You calling me names again?
That's not nice.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

She had to have stopped believing this at some point or she never would have left the CC! I also reached the point where it was difficult for me to believe that my sins were forgiven by telling them to a priest.


The page number is never given for the CCC.
Here is paragraph no. 837:

837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"

I happen to believe that the N.T. teaches possible loss of salvation if God's laws are not followed...and which laws did Jesus make a point of?
Love God.
Love your neighbor as yourself.

Without love we are but a clanging bell; without love we cannot obey God and work good deeds while in this life.

So, yes, I do agree with the highlighted above.

Loving God and loving others is about discipleship, knowing you & others that profess Him are abiding in Christ.

1 John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

It is not for salvation, otherwise, it is of works and Jesus had not really saved you.

Enemies are hard to love when it is not in our flesh to do so, but He can help us to or guide us to know when to keep our distance, and even bear us in our shortcomings when we are crying out for vengeance.

Romans 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. 18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Luke 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? 8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

It is possible by Him to love our enemies in some situations that He enables us to do for the sake of the gospel.

But there will be saints that the Lord will have to bear that do cry out for Him to have vengeance, and needs His help to leave it to Him, but they are still saved since He calls them the elect still. However, if they take vengeance, they would be grieving the Holy Spirit within them, but hardly becoming unsaved when that Holy Spirit in us is not going anywhere.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

So discipleship is our labor to be accepted by the Bridegroom when He comes to avoid being left behind.

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:.........9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

To be received as vessels unto honor in His House to attend the Marriage Supper is the high prize of our calling in Christ Jesus. But failing that, saints run the risk of becoming vessels unto dishonor, but still in His House, as they will be castaways into the bed of the coming great tribulation....unless they repent with His help before He comes.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

The Catechism does not trump the bible; I'd say that it uses the bible for references but it also uses other sources such as Papal docs and writings of church fathers (early theologians). It does explain what the CC believes and teaches NOW. In 2018,,,not hundreds of years ago. I'd also say that even though the bible is still at the top, Tradition is also used by the CC. By Tradition, they mean what has been passed down by these early theologians and other writings by the early Christians. I can't think of any right now, but it would be easy enough to look it up if you wanted these sources. They are extra-biblical writings.

Anything that the Catholic teaches that opposes scripture, the scripture is ignored generally. They may take scripture out of context, develop a teaching from it without seeing how other scripture plainly reproves that teaching.

I agree with you to a certain point. I do want to repeat that I'm Protestant and have been for many many years, and I DO believe that it's possible to lose salvation.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Nope. Not possible for the glory of Jesus Christ as our Saviour to cease in any life of the believer. If we read how the Father is the One that draws men unto the Son to reveal His Son to them so they can believe, then our believing in Him is a work of God as well.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

God knows who will come to Him from those that prefer their evil deeds rather than be reproved of them by Him. That means to me that sinners would never believe in Him if God knew they had preferred their evil deeds to never believe in Him.

Does some fall away and become worse than they were before they were saved? Yes, it is possible, but that foundation remains which was laid by Christ Jesus and it is only the works on that foundation that gets burned up. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth over not being received as a vessel unto honor in His House, but God will wipe the tears from their eyes to get past that loss in being damned as vessels unto dishonor in His House.

Not easy to do, but some who have claimed to be believers have left the faith. The explanation is that they were never saved to begin with...we can't know that.

It is true that we can't judge any one as never were saved in the first place, but we can find that even former believers still have His seal and still are called to depart from iniquity. If you consider how many believers topped believing in the Bible and thus in God because of that false science, the evolution theory, you may appreciate God keeping them still as His.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Former believers are still called to ask Jesus for help to discern the lies that turned them away from Him so that they may be found abiding in Him when the Bridegroom comes.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

I've asked about 3 priests I know personally (one is also a monk) and they have ASSURED me that Jesus is NOT presented again as a sacrifice at each Mass. What they explain to me is that it's as if we were standing at the cross...it is represented as a memorial, not RE-PRESENTED as a sacrifice again. If you care to read about this as it seems you're interested, it starts in the CCC at number 1356. (under Eucharistic Celebration in the index).

From this link below:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P41.HTM

1356 If from the beginning Christians have celebrated the Eucharist and in a form whose substance has not changed despite the great diversity of times and liturgies, it is because we know ourselves to be bound by the command the Lord gave on the eve of his Passion: "Do this in remembrance of me."181

Am I reading this wrong in #1364 & #1367 because it seems to be veering away from what those 3 priests said?

1364 In the New Testament, the memorial takes on new meaning. When the Church celebrates the Eucharist, she commemorates Christ's Passover, and it is made present the sacrifice Christ offered once for all on the cross remains ever present.183 "As often as the sacrifice of the Cross by which 'Christ our Pasch has been sacrificed' is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out."184

1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "In this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner."188

Same thing as saying offering Him "again" but in an unbloody manner while carrying out "the work of our redemption".


1368 The Eucharist is also the sacrifice of the Church. the Church which is the Body of Christ participates in the offering of her Head. With him, she herself is offered whole and entire. She unites herself to his intercession with the Father for all men. In the Eucharist the sacrifice of Christ becomes also the sacrifice of the members of his Body. the lives of the faithful, their praise, sufferings, prayer, and work, are united with those of Christ and with his total offering, and so acquire a new value. Christ's sacrifice present on the altar makes it possible for all generations of Christians to be united with his offering.

Still reads to me that they are offering Him by making that one time sacrifice for sins "present" in an unbloody manner as an offering for all generations of Christians to celebrate in.

Kind of like saying indirectly that the priests are stronger than Christ in making His one time sacrifice for sins "present" to be received again as often as Catholics celebrate the Mass.

So am I reading this wrong? Just wondering. I cannot see how the Eucharist in the Mass is not idolatry and how the celibate priests do not come off as having special powers for making Christ's "voluntary" offering present. It is not true that if a priest is married, he can only perform communion and not the Mass?

1 Corinthians 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. 18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. 21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. 22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?

Communion can only mean symbolic representation of what was done if any wish to truly do it in remembrance of Him.

 

[Philip James]

Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

Dont you see that Paul is saying you cant partake of the Christian altar and also pagan altars?
If the table of the Lord is not a sacrafice this entire passage becomes nonsensical.
The Divine Liturgy fulfills the prophecy of Malachi 1:11 it is the 'pure offering'

And the church has always understood this.. From the Didache:
For this is that which was spoken by the Lord, "In every place and time offer me a pure sacrifice, for I am a great king," saith the Lord, "and my name is wonderful among the heathen.

Peace!

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Dont you see that Paul is saying you cant partake of the Christian altar and also pagan altars?
If the table of the Lord is not a sacrafice this entire passage becomes nonsensical.

The problem is the pagan altars are offering sacrifice but that is not what is happening in communion. That is the difference between the two when there is no offering to God for us in communion, and so not the same way that pagan offer sacrifices.

1 Corinthians 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. 18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. 21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. 22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?

The Divine Liturgy fulfills the prophecy of Malachi 1:11 it is the 'pure offering'

And the church has always understood this.. From the Didache:

For this is that which was spoken by the Lord, "In every place and time offer me a pure sacrifice, for I am a great king," saith the Lord, "and my name is wonderful among the heathen.

The Didache is wrong to apply communion to be in the same format as pagans do in offering sacrifices at the altar to God to be received by the participants.

It is no wonder that many Catholics and even Protestants are misunderstanding communion that it is supposed to be done in remembrance of Him and nothing more.

 

[Philip James]

The Didache is wrong to apply communion to be in the same format as pagans do in offering sacrifices at the altar to God to be received by the participants.

Lol. Ill stick with the teaching of the apostles rather than the recent traditions of men thank you..

And once again you posted the verses where Paul compares the Christian altar with that of the Jews and contrasts it with that of the pagans...

If the Christians have no altar then the whole passage is meaningless...

But by all means, keep insisting that YOU know better than those who learned these things directly from the apostles...

Pax!

 

[Triumph1300]

You calling me names again?
That's not nice.

They accused Jesus Christ of the same.

Surely you would have a better response to Bol, Rollo.

Watching with great interest.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I HOPE you do - but you won't get there by being disobedient.

Surprising, such a vague answer from someone who is considered a holy scholar by many (that's surprising too).
Disobedient - a word you use often, yet you never apply it to yourself.
Do you see yourself as perfect, because you see yourself as a perfect catholic?
You can't be a perfect catholic unless you are a member of the Knights of Columbus

And that makes me wonder why you are not a Knights of Columbus member.
What is it they have against you?
I think I'll join the Knights of Columbus and find out why.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Lol. Ill stick with the teaching of the apostles rather than the recent traditions of men thank you..

And once again you posted the verses where Paul compares the Christian altar with that of the Jews and contrasts it with that of the pagans...

Then let us be precise; where do you find the christian altar in those verses below?

1 Corinthians 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

By having believed in Him, we are saved and joined with the one body; Christ Jesus, being the Head. That is how spiritually we are partaker of that one bread. It is not being achieved in communion when it is to be done as a reminder of what had been achieved by Him on the cross and having risen from the dead.

The comparison to how Israel after the flesh are partakers of the altar is how christians are different in taking communion, otherwise, that Eucharist also represent us and not just Him being offered and so are we receiving ourselves along with Him? No. Then may the Lord help us to see that communion cannot by any means represent on a continual basis the old system in how Israel after the flesh offered sacrifices to God for themselves.

18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. 21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. 22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?

To imply or infer that communion is just like the system by how Israel offer sacrifices to God is to testify that something is being achieved more than just doing it in remembrance of Him, thus violating what Christ plainly said for us to do in how we take communion.

If the Christians have no altar then the whole passage is meaningless...

Well if you keep reading the Mass into it, it would be, but then again, if the Mass is just the same as how Israel after the flesh do their sacrificial offering, then that is pretty much insulting God that His blood is on par with the blood of goats and bulls that it bears repeating to be received again.

But by all means, keep insisting that YOU know better than those who learned these things directly from the apostles...

Pax!

I can't see you explaining how it is not idolatry when insisting that you are receiving Him again. Making an inanimate object a living "god" is idolatry.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

Paul did say to prove all things and to abstain from all appearances of evil, and so obviously, you are glossing over key words like "we being a part of that body and one bread" that it cannot be seen as an sacrificial offering made present when it is representing symbolically what Christ has accomplished for why communion is just to be done in remembrance of Him.

When the Mass achieves something other than doing it in remembrance of Him, it is not being done in remembrance of Him after all.

 

[Philip James]

Then let us be precise; where do you find the christian altar in those verses below

Right here: For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

And here : . 21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils

And again taught here: Heb 13:10

We have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat.

Peace!