If We Protestants Truly Hated Catholics...

[Triumph1300]

And if the bishop of Rome is the Pope, how can you object to Roman Catholic?

This might help you out, Enoch:

http://www.ewtn.com/Faith/teachings/churb3.htm

 

[Enoch111]

This might help you out, Enoch:
http://www.ewtn.com/Faith/teachings/churb3.htm

Just semantic games to avoid the truth. Please note:

"...but when the adjective Roman is applied to the Church herself, it refers to the Diocese of Rome!

Cardinals, for example, are called cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, but that designation means that when they are named to be cardinals they have thereby become honorary clergy of the Holy Father's home diocese, the Diocese of Rome."

Since cardinals are actual clergy (not *honorary*), you can see how the Catholic Church plays games with words (and with Bible doctrine). As far as non-Catholics are concerned it is the RCC.

 

[BreadOfLife]

BOL, you are so unbelievably mistaken. Protestantism didn't rely on the RCC Western MSS family Latin, or rely on the Alexandrian MSS family, which was compiled in Satan's living room - Alexandria - which families have been proven to be are just two birds of a feather when compared scholarly...Protestantism ultimately derived its teachings from the Byzantian family MSS which were not part of Catholic Canon, but were carried West and into the heart of the Papal Beast from the region where Christianity was born - Palestine.

The great scholar Erasmus published a revolutionary Bible in which he had printed passages in both Greek and Latin on the same page side by side which for the first time allowed learned men to compare the faithfully preserved Byzantian Greek with the butchery of Rome's Latin, a language that even then was as dead as the dead bread of the Eucharist.

The Byzantian Greek of Luke 13:3 reads, "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye REPENT ye shall all likewise perish" which demands we do nothing but turn from obedience to sin and put our faith in God to as our Savior by the blood of Jesus, and as our Lord to which we render obedience which is the "reasonable service" of the saved Christian.

The corrupted Latin translation reads, "...except ye DO PENANCE ye shall all likewise perish" which demands works on the part of man for his salvation - a Satanic falsehood which is the scarlet thread binding all pagan religions of the world together with the paganism of Catholicism.

There were ALL sorts of erroneous Bibles being copied. One, which is referred to as the "Blasphemous Bible" omits the word "Not" from the 2nd commandment, rendering it as "You shall take the name of the Lord your God in vain."

Another flawed text had Adam and Eve wearing pants (breeches) made of fig leaves. Some had flawed grammar, rendering thoughts and even doctrines incorrectly.

As for your manure about the Latin text in Luke 13:3 - THIS is what it says:
Latin: Non, dico vobis: sed nisi pœnitentiam habueritis, omnes similiter peribitis.
English: No, I tell you. But unless you repent, you will all perish similarly.

"Pœnitentiam" translated into English is REPENT - not "Penance".
Why don't you try being HONEST for a change, hmmmm??

Ummmmm, talk about lies being compiled in "Satan's living room" . . .

 

[Triumph1300]

Just semantic games to avoid the truth.

Oh, sure.

You disagree with something and "It's just semantic games".

That's all you got?
You didn't even read the link.
You'r response was faster than anyone could read the link..

 

[BreadOfLife]

And is it not true that the church of Rome was not the same as the church at Constantinople, Alexandria, Jerusalem, Antioch etc. So if the church of Rome is Catholic, how can you object to Roman Catholic?
And if the bishop of Rome is the Pope, how can you object to Roman Catholic?

Because the Church I belong to is "The Catholic Church."
You will not find the title "Roman Catholic Church" as an official title of the Church ANYWHERE in ANY official document of the Church.

There is NO such thing as "The Roman Catholic Church."
There is the Roman/Latin RITE. So, when you drive by a Catholic Church and the sign says "St. Joseph's Roman Catholic Church" - it is referring to the RITE. similarly, if you drive by a Maronite Catholic Church - it will say, "St. Joseph's Maronite Catholic Church."

There are TWENTY Rites that make up the Catholic Church and they are ALL in communion with the Pope. If He is in Rome - would a Maronite Catholic or a Byzantine Catholic, or a Melkite Catholic call himself a "Roman" Catholic?

This "Roman Catholic Church" or "RCC" nonsense is an obsession with you ANTI-Catholics - not us knowledgeable Catholics . . .

 

[Heb 13:8]

Because the Church I belong to is "The Catholic Church."

Hmm, that's interesting. On www.blueletterbible.org/ the word "catholic" is nowhere mentioned in the Bible, but this is...

Act 15:3 The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the believers very glad.

Act 15:22 Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, men who were leaders among the believers.

1Co 14:23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

God bless.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Hmm, that's interesting. On www.blueletterbible.org/ the word "catholic" is nowhere mentioned in the Bible, but this is...

Act 15:3 The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the believers very glad.

Act 15:22 Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, men who were leaders among the believers.

1Co 14:23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

God bless.

What's really interesting is that the Church mentioned in Scripture was being called "The Catholic Church" by the end of the first century - while the Apostles John was STILL alive. In fact, we see it in the writings of one of his own students, Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch.
Ge a load of this . . .

Ignatius of Antioch
Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 107]).

Obedience to the Bishop, obeying the clergy, the celebration of a common Eucharist - these are CATHOLIC principles.

Now - WHERE did the title of "Catholic Church" come from??
Acts 9:31 talks about how the Early Church grew throughout the region. The language used here describes the Catholic Church:

“Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee, and Samaria experienced peace and thus was strengthened. Living in the fear of the Lord and in the encouragement of the Holy Spirit, the church increased in numbers.”

According to Strong’s Greek Concordance – the verse is translated as:
“The true Church throughout all Judea . . .”

Here is the phrase in Greek:
η μεν ουν εκκλησια καθ ολης της ιουδαιας

The Catholic Church gets its name from the GREEK for “according to the whole” and “universal” - εκκλησια καθ ολης, which is pronounced “ekklesia katah-holos”.

Εκκλησια (ekklesia) - A gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly; CHURCH

Καθ (katah) - Through out, according to
Ολης (holos) - All, whole, completely

"Ekklesia Kata-holos" = CATHOLIC CHURCH.
I rest my case.

 

[Enoch111]

You'r response was faster than anyone could read the link..

I simply glanced at the link. It was just pro-Catholic Church propaganda.

Even Britannica -- which does not present flaky ideas -- calls it "the Roman Catholic Church".

"Roman Catholicism, Christian church that has been the decisive spiritual force in the history of Western civilization. Along with Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestantism, it is one of the three major branches of Christianity. The Roman Catholic Church traces its history to Jesus Christ and the Apostles. "
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Roman-Catholicism

They forget to say "...allegedly traces its history..." since Peter is not even mentioned in the epistle to the Romans!

Since the bishop of Rome is the pope (and he is not acknowledge as pope by the Eastern Orthodox) then it is perfectly legitimate to speak of "Roman Catholicism" and "the Roman Catholic Church".

 

[Phoneman777]

Then I need for you to show me where my post on the numbering of the Ten Commandments goes "against" the teachings of my own Church. CAN you do that??

As for the use of "Roman Catholic Church" - it was a derogatory term invented by the Church of England during the time of Henry VIII. Any use of it by a Catholic official refers to the RITE - and NOT the title.

YOU can whine all you want but it is NOT the official title of the Church.
the official title is: "The Catholic Church".

I'm going to post this information again for your benefit, as well as for others who, by your statements that are contrary to the facts, may be questioning whether their use of "Roman Catholic church" when referring to the Roman Catholic church is correct:

FROM PAPAL ENCYCLICAL HUMANI GENERIS
pope PIUS XII, 1950​

"27. Some say they are not bound by the doctrine, explained in Our Encyclical Letter of a few years ago, and based on the sources of revelation, which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing.[6] Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation. Others finally belittle the reasonable character of the credibility of Christian faith."​

It is crystal clear to all that Pius' use of "Roman Catholic Church" here is not a reference limited to a mere Catholic "rite" as you claim such references are, but is an undeniable reference to the entire, global, world, planetary, Sun-orbiting Catholic church at large.

Please stop accusing Protestants of illegitimately referring to the Roman Catholic church as "Roman Catholic church" because if we're wrong, then your "infallible" Piux XII is wrong also, OK?

 

[Phoneman777]

There were ALL sorts of erroneous Bibles being copied. One, which is referred to as the "Blasphemous Bible" omits the word "Not" from the 2nd commandment, rendering it as "You shall take the name of the Lord your God in vain."

Another flawed text had Adam and Eve wearing pants (breeches) made of fig leaves. Some had flawed grammar, rendering thoughts and even doctrines incorrectly.

As for your manure about the Latin text in Luke 13:3 - THIS is what it says:
Latin: Non, dico vobis: sed nisi pœnitentiam habueritis, omnes similiter peribitis.
English: No, I tell you. But unless you repent, you will all perish similarly.

"Pœnitentiam" translated into English is REPENT - not "Penance".
Why don't you try being HONEST for a change, hmmmm??

Ummmmm, talk about lies being compiled in "Satan's living room" . . .

BOL, please don't be angry at me - I'm not here to speak lies, I'm just a messenger obeying my Lord's command to "expose the darkness", according to Ephesians 5:11. The Catholic church teaches falsely that pennance is necessary to save us from perishing, according to the JESUIT DOUAY RHEIMS, a book that Papists refer to as the "Bible":

1] And there were present, at that very time, some that told him of the Galileans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. [2] And he answering, said to them: Think you that these Galileans were sinners above all the men of Galilee, because they suffered such things? [3] No, I say to you: but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish.

As stated earlier, the Bibles of the Reformation were NOT based on the corrupt Latin garbage translations, but were based on the MSS carried West from the crumbling Byzantian Empire, not the Alexandrian MSS which originated in Satan's living room, and not the Western (Roman Catholic) family MSS which originated in Satan's bedroom. Please do a little research before you post such nonsense like "if it wasn't for the Latin Bibles, the Reformation probably wouldn't have took place like it did." It's just not true, my friend.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I'm going to post this information again for your benefit, as well as for others who, by your statements that are contrary to the facts, may be questioning whether their use of "Roman Catholic church" when referring to the Roman Catholic church is correct:

FROM PAPAL ENCYCLICAL HUMANI GENERIS
pope PIUS XII, 1950​

"27. Some say they are not bound by the doctrine, explained in Our Encyclical Letter of a few years ago, and based on the sources of revelation, which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing.[6] Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation. Others finally belittle the reasonable character of the credibility of Christian faith."​

It is crystal clear to all that Pius' use of "Roman Catholic Church" here is not a reference limited to a mere Catholic "rite" as you claim such references are, but is an undeniable reference to the entire, global, world, planetary, Sun-orbiting Catholic church at large.

Please stop accusing Protestants of illegitimately referring to the Roman Catholic church as "Roman Catholic church" because if we're wrong, then your "infallible" Piux XII is wrong also, OK?

And, unfortunately, YOU didn't post the text from the previous Enclyclical from Pius Xii, "MYSTICI CORPORIS CHRISTI", which he was referencing in this quote in context.
Here is the text:

"For nothing more glorious, nothing nobler, nothing surely more honorable can be imagined than to belong to the One, Holy Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church, in which we become members of One Body as venerable as it is unique; are guided by one supreme Head; are filled with one divine Spirit; are nourished during our earthly exile by one doctrine and one heavenly Bread, until at last we enter into the one, unending blessedness of heaven."

It is in this context that Pius XII was speaking in HUMANI GENERIS, which was used mostly for purposes of ecumenism and not an official title. "Roman" Church is usually taken to mean the Diocese of Rome - OR the Roman Rite.

If Pius XII has literally meant "Roman Catholic Church" as the ONLY entity of the Catholic Church - he would be excluding the millions of people in the other 19 Rites which include the Melkite, Coptic, Byzantine, Maronite, etc. Unfortunately, even Popes make public blunders. A short review of the pontificate of our current Pope Francis should be a clue . . .

 

[Heb 13:8]

What's really interesting is that the Church mentioned in Scripture was being called "The Catholic Church" by the end of the first century - while the Apostles John was STILL alive. In fact, we see it in the writings of one of his own students, Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch.
Ge a load of this . . .

Ignatius of Antioch
Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 107]).

Obedience to the Bishop, obeying the clergy, the celebration of a common Eucharist - these are CATHOLIC principles.

Now - WHERE did the title of "Catholic Church" come from??
Acts 9:31 talks about how the Early Church grew throughout the region. The language used here describes the Catholic Church:

“Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee, and Samaria experienced peace and thus was strengthened. Living in the fear of the Lord and in the encouragement of the Holy Spirit, the church increased in numbers.”

According to Strong’s Greek Concordance – the verse is translated as:
“The true Church throughout all Judea . . .”

Here is the phrase in Greek:
η μεν ουν εκκλησια καθ ολης της ιουδαιας

The Catholic Church gets its name from the GREEK for “according to the whole” and “universal” - εκκλησια καθ ολης, which is pronounced “ekklesia katah-holos”.

Εκκλησια (ekklesia) - A gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly; CHURCH

Καθ (katah) - Through out, according to
Ολης (holos) - All, whole, completely

"Ekklesia Kata-holos" = CATHOLIC CHURCH.
I rest my case.

Interesting, your buddy Ignatius is nowhere to be found in scripture. The church consists of the body of Christ, those who believe and confess.

 

[BreadOfLife]

BOL, please don't be angry at me - I'm not here to speak lies, I'm just a messenger obeying my Lord's command to "expose the darkness", according to Ephesians 5:11. The Catholic church teaches falsely that pennance is necessary to save us from perishing, according to the JESUIT DOUAY RHEIMS, a book that Papists refer to as the "Bible":

1] And there were present, at that very time, some that told him of the Galileans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. [2] And he answering, said to them: Think you that these Galileans were sinners above all the men of Galilee, because they suffered such things? [3] No, I say to you: but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish.

As stated earlier, the Bibles of the Reformation were NOT based on the corrupt Latin garbage translations, but were based on the MSS carried West from the crumbling Byzantian Empire, not the Alexandrian MSS which originated in Satan's living room, and not the Western (Roman Catholic) family MSS which originated in Satan's bedroom. Please do a little research before you post such nonsense like "if it wasn't for the Latin Bibles, the Reformation probably wouldn't have took place like it did." It's just not true, my friend.

Ummmmm, apparently, you didn't R*E*A*D my last post - and, you're reading an updated version of the Douay Rheims Bible. The original 16th century version didn't say "Do Penance" in Luke 13:1.

Anyway - I already addressed the Latin in that verse from the Vulgate . . .

As for your manure about the Latin text in Luke 13:3 - THIS is what it says:
Latin: Non, dico vobis: sed nisi pœnitentiam habueritis, omnes similiter peribitis.
English: No, I tell you. But unless you repent, you will all perish similarly.

"Pœnitentiam" translated into English is REPENT - not "Penance".
Why don't you try being HONEST for a change, hmmmm??

 

[Philip James]

Interesting, your buddy Ignatius is nowhere to be found in scripture. The church consists of the body of Christ, those who believe and confess.

Ignatius was one of these. Thrown to the lions for his witness to the Truth.
He was taught by the apostles and is commended by Polycarp.

You might want to give him a hearing.

Pax!

 

[Phoneman777]

And, unfortunately, YOU didn't post the text from the previous Enclyclical from Pius Xii, "MYSTICI CORPORIS CHRISTI", which he was referencing in this quote in context.
Here is the text:

"For nothing more glorious, nothing nobler, nothing surely more honorable can be imagined than to belong to the One, Holy Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church, in which we become members of One Body as venerable as it is unique; are guided by one supreme Head; are filled with one divine Spirit; are nourished during our earthly exile by one doctrine and one heavenly Bread, until at last we enter into the one, unending blessedness of heaven."

It is in this context that Pius XII was speaking in HUMANI GENERIS, which was used mostly for purposes of ecumenism and not an official title. "Roman" Church is usually taken to mean the Diocese of Rome - OR the Roman Rite.

If Pius XII has literally meant "Roman Catholic Church" as the ONLY entity of the Catholic Church - he would be excluding the millions of people in the other 19 Rites which include the Melkite, Coptic, Byzantine, Maronite, etc. Unfortunately, even Popes make public blunders. A short review of the pontificate of our current Pope Francis should be a clue . . .

BOL, I didn't ask for you to provide examples of Papal use of the phrase "Roman church", I asked you to explain how can it be that the Roman Catholic church doesn't recognize application of "Roman Catholic Church" to itself when your very own pope just 68 years ago said in his 1950 encyclical that the "Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church" are one in the same. I see that you are incapable of admitting your errors even when the highest authorities in your church prove you wrong, so I'll not waste my time or yours.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Interesting, your buddy Ignatius is nowhere to be found in scripture. The church consists of the body of Christ, those who believe and confess.

I never said he was.

However - as not only a contemporary of the Apostles and a STUDENT of the Apostles John - we see how the Church was forming at the end of the 1st century through his writings.

Obedience to the Bishop, obeying the clergy, the celebration of a common Eucharist - these are CATHOLIC principles. Even the TITLE of the Church - "The CATHOLIC Church" was in wide use at the time he wrote those letters.

I ALSO showed you the very Biblical origins of the title of the Catholic Church back in post #287 . . .

 

[Phoneman777]

Ummmmm, apparently, you didn't R*E*A*D my last post - and, you're reading an updated version of the Douay Rheims Bible. The original 16th century version didn't say "Do Penance" in Luke 13:1.

Anyway - I already addressed the Latin in that verse from the Vulgate . . .

As for your manure about the Latin text in Luke 13:3 - THIS is what it says:
Latin: Non, dico vobis: sed nisi pœnitentiam habueritis, omnes similiter peribitis.
English: No, I tell you. But unless you repent, you will all perish similarly.

"Pœnitentiam" translated into English is REPENT - not "Penance".
Why don't you try being HONEST for a change, hmmmm??

Do you even realize how utterly ridiculous it sounds to assert that the older version had it right but the newer version changed it to be wrong? No, I'm certain that the older version was just as corrupt as the new, but I understand that you are willing to believe anything and everything your lying church leaders put out there to cover their mistakes...just like as of late, right? "Rome never changes."

 

[Phoneman777]

I ALSO showed you the very Biblical origins of the title of the Catholic Church back in post #287 . . .

And I showed you that in 1950, pope Pius PLAINLY states that the "Roman Catholic Church" and the "Body of Christ" are one in the same and there's absolutely NO WAY anyone can read the context and come away with the idea that he was referring to just some "rite" - except if that someone simply refuses to accept facts as they are plainly given, even from the highest ranking members of their church.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Ignatius was one of these. Thrown to the lions for his witness to the Truth.
He was taught by the apostles and is commended by Polycarp.

You might want to give him a hearing.

Pax!

Was Ignatius OSAS??? All the "catholics" on here preach non-osas. The body of Christ is the church, those who believe and confess Rom 10:9.

 

[Heb 13:8]

I never said he was.

However - as not only a contemporary of the Apostles and a STUDENT of the Apostles John - we see how the Church was forming at the end of the 1st century through his writings.

Obedience to the Bishop, obeying the clergy, the celebration of a common Eucharist - these are CATHOLIC principles. Even the TITLE of the Church - "The CATHOLIC Church" was in wide use at the time he wrote those letters.

I ALSO showed you the very Biblical origins of the title of the Catholic Church back in post #287 . . .

It's all religion BOL, doesn't get you any closer to heaven.