Clearly you were easily finished - hopefully the rest of them have more stamina :) - but thanks for your input - limited as it was.
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Clearly you were easily finished - hopefully the rest of them have more stamina :) - but thanks for your input - limited as it was.
Well .. Yeah - that is what Trinity Doctrine States - and what folks started to believe after 325 AD Council of Nicene - took another 5 Centuries of Christians killing Christians to settle the issue .. "Conversion by the Sword" so to speak...
But what did folks believe prior to this ...for the first 300 centuries of Christianity .. cause it wasn't what you are suggesting. The idea in fact would have been declared Heresy.
Things that make ya go hmmmmm
Lord yes - "God" in context - Yes (but don't think it was Every Disciple) .. but not "God the Father" None of the disciples believed that Jesus was "The Father". Nor did the early Church Fathers.
The idea wasn't even broached unto Tertullian - round 200 AD .. and the idea was labeled heretical. We can thank Emperor Constantine for sorting the issue of the nature of Christs Divinity out for Christianity. 300 years after the death of our Lord.
They, the Apostles, believed that in Jesus was the Yahweh of the OT becoming a Man among them. and they also believed that the Father was Yahweh also, as was the Holy Spirit Himself!
That is simply not true - and you should distinguish between "Apostles" as in Paul .. and the Disciples .. although neither believed that Jesus was "The Father" -
The idea that Jesus was the YHWH of the OT - would not even exist until Tertullian round 200AD - and at the time was viewed as heresy.
So you are way way off base - and factually incorrect.
The early Church Fathers believed that Jesus was Divine - but subordinate to the Father. The debate was around the nature of the Divinity of Jesus in those years .. and it raged hard .. many different ideologies - none however which stated that Jesus was "The Father"
John is the closest we get to the deification of Jesus in the Gospels. Jesus here is described as "The Logos" - the emissary between Man and God. Jesus is described as a go between - between man and God ... Not as God.. Jesus was the physical Embodiment of God's Word - which Jesus spoke through the holy spirit - and was divine in nature .. but he was not "The Father"
In Mark Jesus is not Deified until he is a man of 30 - in Matt we have a virgin Birth. John takes a step beyond that insisting that Jesus was pre-existent with God... but it is not suggested that Jesus was God .. quite the Reverse.. Jesus is described as the "The Logos" - the emissary between man and God . Jesus is not described as being subordinate to the father ... and Jesus describes himself as subordinate to and/or other than the Father a gazillion times throughout the Gospels.
No-where - according to Bible Dictionaries - is the trinity confirmed in the Gospels. What is confirmed - over and over and over and over - is that Jesus is not the Father.
How about we start with Jesus last words --- according to Matt/Mark - surely you remember. Why would any sane person even want to begin trying to explain that one .. from the perspective of Jesus actually being God -The Father.
but I digress. Bottom line .. The Early Church did not Believe that Jesus was "The Father". This idea did not even exist until Tertulian - round 200AD ..and was considered heresy at the time. Wasn't until 325 AD - council of Nicene - by edict of Emperor Constantine - that Jesus was transformed into "The Father" and that this doctrine became law of the land.
It took another 500 years of persecution and killing of Christians with an opposing point of view - for this doctrine to become dominant.
the NT affirms that Apostles all held to God the father, Lord jesus, and the Holy Spirit as all being Yahweh!
Not according to modern Biblical Scholarship but - the floor is yours - back up your claim.
Then I will back up my claim - that the early Church did not believe that Jesus was "The Father".
101G
Well-Known Member
was not Christ, "his Spirit" was in the OT? YES, 1 Corinthians 10:1 "Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;"
1 Corinthians 10:2 "And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;"
1 Corinthians 10:3 "And did all eat the same spiritual meat;"
1 Corinthians 10:4 "And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." Christ Spirit was in the OT, as a matter of Fact it is the GOD of the OT. so who is the ROCK? lets check the record/the Scriptures,
Deuteronomy 32:3 "Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God."
Deuteronomy 32:4 "He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he."
the Christ Spirit is the "LORD", BINGO. again showing that the LORD is the Lord in Flesh. that's bible. the GOD of the OT is the Spirit of Christ.
so Grailhunter, another mistake on your part again.
PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
101G
Well-Known Member
the apostles never believed such a thing. they understood the term "Father" & "Son", and they knew these titles was not biological in nature. as stated above in post #70 the Spirit of Christ is the OT GOD, the ordinal "First". and knoiwing that it is the Spirit of Christ in the OT, (for there is only ONE Spirit), this same one Spirit is who inspired the prophets of the OT to prophesie. 2 Peter 1:21 "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." and who Spirit was in these men that "MOVED" them? answer, 1 Peter 1:11 "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."
the Spirit of Christ is the God of the OT, the Holy Spirit. how plain can one get.
how many way must God by his Holy word tell you that he, JESUS, is the only God of the OT and the NT. ... how long?
there is your Father, Son, and Holy Spirit right there in the OLD TESTMENT in the ONE PERSON of JESUS.
PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Do yourself a favor, dig a little deeper.
Judaism and Christianity is big apple, most people only know the skin....good skin and good for you, but not very deep.
1. If you are reading the word Lord in the OT, you are probably reading a corruption of the scriptures where they took God the Father's name out of the scriptures and replaced it with the word Lord or God. Lord is a generic term in the OT. Even the word Baal means lord.
2. Yahweh was adamant that there was only one God and He was it and there was no one like Him.
3. There is no discussion of the three aspects of Yahweh in the OT.
4. Yahweh does not discuss things that Him and His Son would be doing, or had done in the past.
5. Yeshua is not defined as a God in the OT. Besides that, would you call Him the Son of God in the OT.
6. If He was there you would not need to comb the scripture with a microscope to find Him.
7. The Jews believed that the messiah...was a junior figure to Elijah in their estimation....they believed the messiah would be a human warlord king that would rescue them from their oppressors and put them in world power....instead of a warlord they got the Lord.
8. It would be sacrilegious to the point of death by stoning for someone to insinuate that the messiah would be a God. For one thing they only believed in one God, one name, and one person so to speak. For two, since the messiah was considered a junior figure to Elijah, it would be an insult to a God. Junior to Elijah, that is why Elijah was to introduce the messiah.
9. If they...the prophets knew that the messiah would be a God...the Son of God It would fill the prophetic books. They would be dancing in the streets and shouting from the mountain tops. It would appear throughout the prophetic books, I mean it would fill the prophetic books. "My daddy is going to beat up your daddy" thing was prescribed to the messiah and was written on their pottery. So even the storyline of the prophetic books would have change drastically. Yeshua is a God of love, forgiveness, and preached pacifism....that would not be what the Jews were expecting. His message of love, forgiveness, and pacifism was startling to Jews...and His claim to be the Son of God was sacrilegious to them. More than one reason, but His teachings and His claim to be the Son of God was one of the reasons that they desired for Him to die the worst death they knew of. Worse than stoning they turned Him over to Romans for a much worse death.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Wrong again. The Apostles knew that He was the only begotten son. If you do not understand the meaning of begotten I will have to take you to school again. They knew that He was born of a woman through conception.
Christ explained the "oneness" concept but few pay attention to His words. Again and again Yeshua is not defined as a God in the OT. Yeshua doing this, Yeshua doing that...no no no none of that in the OT scriptures. To the contrary...one God...no one like Him in the OT.
101G
Well-Known Member
so the scriptures are corrupt, this is what the devil wants, for eventually all the scriptures will be corrupt, no thanks.
first God name was never Yahweh, nor Jehovah. second, God is damant that there was only one God and He was it and there was no one like Him.
see Grailhunter, that's where you fail again, listen, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" but did not God said this, Isaiah 40:25 "To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.". did you not say, here in #2, "and He was it and there was no one like Him".
now please explain that and Philippians 2:6 where the Lord Jesus is equal with God, and like him.
befiore we go any futher, please explain.
PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
101G
Well-Known Member
Third ERROR of the NIGHT, and about to be a fourth, yes I understand the word "Begotten", and it's not biological here. example, 1 Corinthians 4:15 "For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel."
well Grailhunter is this "begotten" the same begotten as in John 1:14...
if you don't know just ASK....... PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Yes begotten is biological. You so funny! In case you have not noticed, Christianity is all about the blood...in case you have not notice Christ being the real Son of God is kinda the theme. lol The physical storyline is about Miriam conceiving....God the Father impregnating Miriam, Miriam delivering the baby Yeshua and putting Him in a manger....read the story real slow....you will get it.Third ERROR of the NIGHT, and about to be a fourth, yes I understand the word "Begotten", and it's not biological here. example, 1 Corinthians 4:15 "For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel."
well Grailhunter is this "begotten" the same begotten as in John 1:14...
PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
As the scriptures prove...Luke 1:36...the holy offspring....read slow...offspring...shall be called the Son of God...notice the capital "S". Then at his baptism....This is My Son, in whom I am well pleased....Do you need a definition of Son....? I am hesitant to offer scriptures to such as you knowing you will take a dump on them....."Spiritual Saboteur"
Again I am suspicious of your motivation....is your religion based on the Jehovah's Witnesses bible...???
101G
Well-Known Member
LOL, LOL, LOL, only flesh at John 1:14 is begotten/Born. the Son of God is born, but the Son of man is not born...
not all begotten are of the flesh, but you think of the flesh. Romans 8:5 "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit."
Romans 8:6 "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace."
Romans 8:7 "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."
now to show you how fleshly you are, is Jesus the Son of God at Philippians 2:6 EQUAL with God?, read carefully as to what I'm saying... ok. "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"
being is present tense, so is Jesus the Son of God "Equal with God? remember what you said in #2.
PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
None of your quotes have anything to do with the Trinity - you are making up meaning.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
You are not even doing a good job at twisting the scriptures....Christ was all man and all God.LOL, LOL, LOL, only flesh at John 1:14 is begotten/Born. the Son of God is born, but the Son of man is not born...
Romans 8:5 "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit."
Romans 8:6 "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace."
Romans 8:7 "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."
now to show you how fleshly you are, is Jesus the Son of God at Philippians 2:6 EQUAL with God?, read carefully as to what I'm saying... ok. "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"
being is present tense, so is Jesus the Son of God "Equal with God? remember what you said in #2.
PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
And you need to be honest with the folks on this forum.
If you want to challenge the Deity of Christ, you need to be honest.
If you want to challenge the fact that Yeshua was the physical and spiritual Son of God, you need to be honest and forthright.
This all reeks of Jehovah Wittiness who printed a bible to deny the Deity of the Son of God, you need to be honest and forthright.
When they printed a bible to deny the Deity of the Son of God they made the choice to be an enemy to Christ and the scriptures...."Spiritual Saboteur"
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