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Begotten according to who ? - certainly not the Jesus of Mark - Jesus is deified as a man of 30 in Mark - at his Baptism - by John the Baptist
and what of the other "Son's of God" identified in the Bible - were they not real ?
Jesus was identified as being the eternal word of the father, and also God by John, and sons of God were the angels, but Jesus is the unique Son, as he is eternal, and not created as all others were and are!
101G
Well-Known Member
"sons of God were the angels" are you that ignorant? angels are not sons of God.... men are. more of you all lack of knowledge. you have no clue who the sons of God are... LOL.
PICJAG.
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
Yes .. Jesus is described as the Logos in the Last Gospel . Emissary between Man and God. and in this way the divinity of Jesus is elevated in stature. Jesus is described as pre- existent in John. but this is not so in the previous gospels.
In Mark (65 Ad) Jesus is made divine at his Baptism - in Matt - which comes later - Mark being used as a source document - all of Mark sans a few passages that the author thought were derogatory to Jesus or the disciples.
The divinity of Jesus is elevated in Matt (~ 80 AD after the Temple was destroyed) - Jesus is now divine at Birth - rather than a man of 30 as in as in Mark.
By the time we get to John (100-120 AD) - Christianity has evolved -- and with it the terminology by which to describe this new religion.
Sad that we no longer use the terminology of John - as I rather like the idea of the Logos. The divinity of Jesus had evolved further - now pre-existent with the Father - but still of lower status. It took another 200 years for Jesus to hit the same level as God - by Edict of Constantine - at Nicene.
The "Sons of God" are not Angels - not by any stretch of Legitimate Biblical Scholarship - despite some of the more extreme elements still clinging to the fables of the past.
The Israelite Religion was not monotheistic until the time of Persia. They were not Polytheists prior to this though. The Israelites believed in the existence of many God's - but were to worship only one. A Divine Pantheon .. which is referenced a number of times in the Bible - and echoed throughout Biblical Archeology. .
For example - In Job - the "sons of God" are visiting God for some reason - some kind of assembly of what you wish to call "Angels".
Satan was among them.
Question 1) is Satan an Angel - or is he a "Son of God" - and what is the relative power differential between Satan and Jesus ? OK .. so Satan is just an Angel ?
Thing is - this angel - has a whole lot of power - but never uses this power against God's will .. least not in Job.
This must be some powerful angel though .. Chiding his Father as he does..... .. Satan proposing a bet - and his Father taking him up on the offer.
The relationship depicted is a "Father/Son" relationship .. even if we knew nothing about the actual Israelite beliefs like we do now - this is crystal clear.
Much of this past has been stripped out of modern translations of the Bible - a process was quite active in the creation of the Masoretic Text (700-900 AD) which is the mainstay translation.
If you go to older texts the text is much less whitewashed - particularly around the "Son's of God" /Strict Monotheism issue. aka - the "Sin of Omission" .
Paul wrote some of the earliest NT books, and even at the very beginning, there was hnigh Christology theology, as Jesus was being seen as very God on earth among us!
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Looks like you are getting a few things mixed up.
But I have heard this before.
As Christ would say you are greatly mistaken.
Thought I covered that though - Pauline Theology is what it is - and there are different forms ... different beliefs.
What does this have to do the nature of Christs Divinity ??
Paul has nothing to say about this - telling is nothing about the life of Jesus .. nor was Paul on the same page as the Disciples in many respects - and he was not part of the Church of Jerusalem - founded and led by James - Brother of Jesus.
Paul knows nothing of a physical resurrection - Stories of Jesus walking around in the Flesh after death - likening the visions of Jesus after his death to his own vision. These stories are also absent from Mark - so on this Paul and Mark agree.
Paul does not helps us question of the nature of the divinity of Jesus.
What we can say is that after the fall of the Temple Christianity became increasingly anti Jewish - due to the "Fiscus Judaicus" - heavy tax on Jews.. very punitive.
By the turn of the Century the Pauline branch of Christianity - as opposed to the Church of Jerusalem - had taken over.. The Gospel of John Echo's this anti Jewish sentiment . .and is itself a Pauline Hellenic Fusion work - and this is the Audience the author is writing to - using terminology with which the people of the day are familiar - the Logos concept was better known in those days than the Trinity in our day -
In using such terminology expand the appeal of Christianity - who - itself was rapidly evolving at the time .. what came after this period was quite remarkable.. but I digress.
As I said previously - I like the Logos concept - too bad Christianity got rid of it - all but a shred hidden in the shadows - and yet an Elephant in the room at the same time.
I can't make sense out of your post .. what have I mixed up - and would Christ say about it - ?
And what does Christ have to do with the meaning of "Sons of God" in the OT - as per Modern Scholarship ?
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Therein lies your misunderstanding. If you want to be a Jew...be my guest....but at least take the time to learn something about the OT, the Jews, and Judaism.
As Christ explained....mixing them together....can only ruin both.
What misunderstanding ? you keep talking in riddles but fooling only your self .. Where did I say I wanted to be a Jew . .. and what do I need to learn about the OT - Jews and Judaism.
Seems that you are the one that has the learning to do - if you think the "Sons of God" refers to Angels according to modern Biblical Scholarship - which includes Christians. It is not some big secret that this is not the case - sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
Try going to the Encyclopedia Britannica "Abraham" and see who is God is thought to be .. if your answer is "YHWH - you would be incorrect.
El - Enlil - El Shaddai - God of the Mountain - the most High - Creator God - the Father and so on - It is El who leads the Divine council in Psalm 82
"El as the Speaking Voice in Psalm 82" - Journal of Hebrew Scripture - since you wanted to learn.
http://www.jhsonline.org/Articles/article_144.pdf
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
I think the discussion was about.....Begotten according to who ? etc
You are way off the mark!
This forum is no place for starting someone out from squire one.
And you are little old to be this far down the wrong path.
You need to go back to the beginning and start over again....
Heading down this Path can only bring you to more wrong paths.
Or in other words, you have pieces to the puzzle, but the ones you got do not fit together.
You are talking gibberish .. you were the one who claimed the "Sons of God" are angels .. which is not correct. You were the one that Claimed Jesus was the Only Real Son .. which is highly debatable ...
Your comments on "Begotten" were also dealt with - This is not the case in Mark .. nor Matt if we are talking "Pre-Existence"
You appear to be the one "starting out from square one" - Projecting your failings on to others - a path ... as you say "can only bring you to more wrong paths"
If you can't take the heat .. perhaps you better find a better path ! :)
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
I never said that the "sons of God" were angels....and that is a small "s" by the way.
Well, remember I said this, the fella that tells you when your fly is down....is he friend or foe?
Sorry .. got you confused with someone else. you were the one who came out with a bunch of unsupported accusations never once offering support - got it.
Jesus is not "Begotten" in Mark - this is the answer you are looking for and must have missed.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Three of the worst approaches to biblical understanding.
1. Instead of basing your beliefs on the Bible, people search for scriptures to superimpose their beliefs on the Bible.
2. Picking less definitive scriptures, so as to promote a preconceived notion.
3. Reading the Bibles as it where the most recent addition to the local Sunday paper.
Of course maybe you overlooked John chapter 3.
And you would be guilty of all 3 - and then try to projecting these failings onto others.
Projection - is a psychological defense mechanism in which individuals attribute characteristics they find unacceptable in themselves to another person. Projection - GoodTherapy.org Therapy Blog
It is not my fault that Jesus is deified as a man of 30 in Mark - but this is the story of Jesus in Mark. We have no virgin Birth - no stories of Jesus wandering around in the Flesh after death - "Physical Resurrection" - Sure folks believe in the spiritual Resurrection - but that is a different matter.
Paul does not know of any physical resurrection - nor does Clement for that matter - which is quite problematic matter given Clement is the leader of the Church "Pope" near the turn of the first century.
What you wish to do is just wish this stuff away - make scripture fit into your "preconceived notion" - and "superimpose your own beliefs" onto that of early Christians and the Bible.
The folks at this time did not have the gospel of John - that would not come for another 4-6 decades. The notion that Jesus was existing with God prior to birth just was not a notion of Jesus that folks at the time had .. certainly not the author of Mark. Tradition holds that Mark was a an interpreter / student of Peter - and this as close to the source as we get.
The author of Mark - and the Church of Jerusalem Christians of the day - believed that Jesus was deemed the "Messiah" - "Son of God" - at his baptism .. as a man of 30 years in age. He then undergoes the traditional ritual... where he is Tested by God - as part of the purification ritual of sorts.
There are no notions of "pre-existence" in this story ..
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
More Projection - on top of previous "demonstrated" projection - you need to give that one up.
You are the one with "quite the religion going on" I merely told you what the the majority of Christianity believes. . and have never stated what my religions beliefs are is - other than stating the denomination under which I was Baptized -
If you want to believe that 2 Timothy is the defacto word of God - you are welcome to this belief. I merely have stated that the vast majority of Christianity disagrees with you ..such that you are one on the extreme end of the spectrum and have "quite the religious beliefs going on there " ?! :)
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
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