If Christian Universalism is true, what's the point in evangelism?

[NotTheRock]

Once you die and ultimately end up in the lake of fire there is no getting out

You misunderstand the LOF and its purpose. The LOF is for chastening and restoring. Remember that Jesus will say "Behold, I am making ALL things new". Everybody gets purified and saved. Those who faithfully follow Jesus go straight to Heaven. Those who don't go to the LOF. On the last day, Jesus resurrects ALL people who then cheerfully declare that Jesus is Lord. And then that concludes the ages.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Yes, all people.
What do you mean when you write: "a heartfelt desire to follow his commandments"?
How is that a requirement for salvation? Works?

Matthew 25:41-46 CLNT
41 "Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers.
42 For I hunger and you do not give Me to eat; I thirst and you do not give Me drink;
43 a stranger was I and you did not take Me in; naked and you did not clothe Me; infirm and in jail and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then shall they also be answering, saying, 'Lord, when did we perceive you hungering or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in jail, and we did not serve you?'
45 "Then shall He be answering them, saying, 'Verily, I am saying to you, In as much as you do it not to one of these, the least, neither do you it to Me.'
46 And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Matthew 7:19-26 CLNT
19 Every tree not producing ideal fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire.
20 Consequently, from their fruits you shall surely be recognizing them.
21 "Not everyone saying to Me 'Lord! Lord!' will be entering into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who is doing the will of My Father Who is in the heavens.
22 Many will be declaring to Me in that day, 'Lord! Lord! Was it not in Your name that we prophesy, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name do many powerful deeds?'
23 And then shall I be avowing to them that 'I never knew you! Depart from Me, workers of lawlessness!'
24 "Everyone, then, who is hearing these sayings of Mine and is doing them shall be likened to a prudent man who builds his house on the rock.
25 And the rain descended, and the rivers came, and the winds blow and they lunge at that house, and it does not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
26 "And everyone who is hearing these sayings of Mine and not doing them shall be likened to a stupid man who builds his house on sand.

Everyone will face a fiery test of their works. That's not a salvation issue.

1 Corinthians 3:15 NIV
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—
even though only as one escaping through the flames.

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[ChristinaL]

You misunderstand the LOF and its purpose. The LOF is for chastening and restoring. Remember that Jesus will say "Behold, I am making ALL things new". Everybody gets purified and saved. Those who faithfully follow Jesus go straight to Heaven. Those who don't go to the LOF. On the last day, Jesus resurrects ALL people who then cheerfully declare that Jesus is Lord. And then that concludes the ages.

NO. The LOF is for those eternally separated from God and there is NO getting out. All people saved or unsaved will bend the knee to Jesus but that is not saying the unsaved dead get a second chance. Their torment is forever

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Luke 16

26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Rev 22 15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. <<<forever outside the Holy City and there is no getting in

 

[Berean]

That is not so. When Jesus said It is finished that means it is complete. Nothing more needs to be done. It is strictly incumbent upon us to accept that finished work on the cross

Our Lord's time on earth began at age 30 and was marked by self-sacrifice, as He gave His life for sinners. His baptism represented this journey. When He was immersed in water, it symbolized His death, and when He rose from the water, it represented His resurrection. From that moment, His three and a half years of ministry were dedicated to self-sacrifice for His followers and for all humanity, culminating at Calvary when He declared, "It is finished." [John 19:30]

The sacrifice was complete, and His life was gone. The Scriptures highlight that He humbled Himself by taking on human form and, in doing so, sacrificed everything for us. He illustrated this in a parable about a man who found treasure in a field and sold all he had to buy it. The field represents the world, and the treasure is made up of those who accept Him and those who will in the future, as they receive guidance to escape sin and death and return to God. The key point is that He gave everything to acquire that field. He held nothing back; He truly "gave Himself a ransom for all." (1 Tim. 2:6).

 

[St. SteVen]

NO. The LOF is for those eternally separated from God and there is NO getting out. All people saved or unsaved will bend the knee to Jesus but that is not saying the unsaved dead get a second chance. Their torment is forever

Here's an interesting fact...
Look at the definition of the word "acknowledge" (confess) in Phil.211.
Fully agree, openly (whole-heartedly); hence, without reservation. = willingly.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

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[St. SteVen]

New topic:

No puppies and kittens in heaven? - Why not?

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[Bruce-Leiter]

What's the point of evangelism if everyone will automatically be saved?

These two questions show a common misunderstanding about Christian Universalism.
(Universal Reconciliation, Universal Restoration, Ultimate Redemption, UR)

These quotes are from the website Universalist Musings.

"When this question is raised, in most cases it’s almost as though the objector is assuming that without the threat of eternal damnation there would be no point in following Jesus or living in obedience to his calling for us. This brings to light the problematic fact that many infernalists seem to view Jesus merely (or at least chiefly) as a ‘get out of hell free’ card, so to speak—remove the real possibility of everlasting hell, and these individuals would apparently say ‘forget Jesus.’ This, of course, is not a proper understanding of gospel motivation."

The reason we ought to follow Jesus and proclaim the gospel without delay, is not primarily for fear of damnation as a consequence if we don’t, but rather because Jesus is inherently worthy of our devotion and obedience, and the gospel is inherently good news worth proclaiming!"

"... have you ever considered why it is that the doctrine of eternal conscious torment has, as a matter of practical fact, failed to motivate most people to turn to Christ, and has likewise failed to motivate most Christians to consistently evangelize? Could this be because most of us, at least deep-down, recognize that it is an inherently absurd and incoherent concept, and thus, is a threat that we recognize does not deserve to be taken seriously?" Source (question 12 pp 3, 4, 7)

Discussion questions:
- Is there any reason to follow Jesus if the threat of hell in the afterlife is removed?
- Is there any value in following Jesus in the here and now?
- What effect might the removal of the threat of hell from the gospel message have?
- Would anyone choose to follow Jesus without the threat of hell?

[

I think that this article sets up an empty "strawman" that it knocks down. That is, I don't think that any churches or denominations are threatening anyone with hell if they don't repent and believe during their evangelistic efforts. So, the questions are moot points.

However, the second question is interesting. It seems to raise the point that selfish people ask, "What's in the afterlife for me?" I would say that we should, rather, ask, "What can I do to honor God with my life?" The afterlife is an afterthought of results. We believers will have glorified, perfect bodies living in a new earth that will be brightly-shining with God's glory. That future gives us a lot of hope, but it isn't our reason for becoming Christians.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

Here's an interesting fact...
Look at the definition of the word "acknowledge" (confess) in Phil.211.
Fully agree, openly (whole-heartedly); hence, without reservation. = willingly.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

[

Yes, everyone will have to fully agree the fact that Jesus is Lord, but the devil and the demons have that acknowledgment with true faith in him. They acknowledge that he is Lord with giving their lives to him and without knowing him personally, which is true faith.

 

[ProDeo]

What's the point of evangelism if everyone will automatically be saved?

In the hypothetical case universalism is true while Jesus said "preach the Gospel" then go back to the point when things got wrong (Gen 3) and reason from there?

 

[St. SteVen]

In the hypothetical case universalism is true while Jesus said "preach the Gospel" then go back to the point when things got wrong (Gen 3) and reason from there?

It's clear to me that there are some who are predestined (the Elect) to renew their relationship with God
in this lifetime and others that will do it in the afterlife. We know that no one can come to God unless he calls them.
And there are countless billions that have never even heard a gospel to respond to.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 NIV
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father
after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

[

 

[Skovand]

Which husband is loving.

The husband that says if you don’t love me the way I tell you to love me I’ll burn y you alive forever and ever or the husband that says no matter what you do, I’ll love you and we will find a way forward.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

It's clear to me that there are some who are predestined (the Elect) to renew their relationship with God
in this lifetime and others that will do it in the afterlife. We know that no one can come to God unless he calls them.
And there are countless billions that have never even heard a gospel to respond to.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 NIV
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father
after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

[

You forget, SteVen, that Romans 1:18-20 says very clearly:

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So, they are without excuse.

Paul's point in all of Romans 1:18--3:20 is that all humans, including Gentiles and Jews, are guilty of sin. Here, he is talking about Gentiles, whereas in chapter two and following, he indicts Jews. Thus, all humans are without excuse, whether or not they have heard the gospel.

We must spread it throughout the world so that they can hear it. God will judge them guilty and worthy of hell, sadly, unless their faith in Jesus' sacrifice makes them not-guilty.

In 1 Corinthians 15:22, the first group dies "in Adam," all humans; while the ones "in Christ" will be believers who will be made alive with all the benefits of eternal life, as verse 23 says about "those who belong to him," which qualifies the second "all" in verse 22.

 

[amigo de christo]

I think that this article sets up an empty "strawman" that it knocks down. That is, I don't think that any churches or denominations are threatening anyone with hell if they don't repent and believe during their evangelistic efforts. So, the questions are moot points.

However, the second question is interesting. It seems to raise the point that selfish people ask, "What's in the afterlife for me?" I would say that we should, rather, ask, "What can I do to honor God with my life?" The afterlife is an afterthought of results. We believers will have glorified, perfect bodies living in a new earth that will be brightly-shining with God's glory. That future gives us a lot of hope, but it isn't our reason for becoming Christians.

Christ preached on both , as did paul and others .
Very good and very wise is it to always behold BOTH the Goodness and the Severity of GOD .
Knowing the Terror of GOD we persaude men .
Show both . show how wonderful it will be for the beleiver and how deadly for all who denied Him .
Focus on the Coming of the LORD , focus on the preaching of the gospel .

 

[amigo de christo]

Which husband is loving.

The husband that says if you don’t love me the way I tell you to love me I’ll burn y you alive forever and ever or the husband that says no matter what you do, I’ll love you and we will find a way forward.

Human reasoning may contain partial truths but always will it contain a lie .
The lie , NO matter what YA DO .
Rather odd i never seemed to Hear Christ or the apostels tell the saints , OH NO matter what YA DO .
it was always instruction rather on what to do , what and who to beleieve and the dire need to continue IN HIM .
Lets see if that works on a child .
I invite anyone to tell a child , hey child no matter what ya do I will love you and we will find a way forward .
and yet ya do not warn the child of the dangers of error .
Having a parent that never warned the child of dangers , to do what is good and to avoid what is evil
WELL it has NO LOVE IN THAT MESSAGE .
WHY do you THINK GOD warns . Because HE LOVES and desires not the death and destruction of any .
TIME we behold , learn and teach both the severity of GOD and the goodness .

 

[Marvelloustime]

Human reasoning may contain partial truths but always will it contain a lie .
The lie , NO matter what YA DO .
Rather odd i never seemed to Hear Christ or the apostels tell the saints , OH NO matter what YA DO .
it was always instruction rather on what to do , what and who to beleieve and the dire need to continue IN HIM .
Lets see if that works on a child .
I invite anyone to tell a child , hey child no matter what ya do I will love you and we will find a way forward .
and yet ya do not warn the child of the dangers of error .
Having a parent that never warned the child of dangers , to do what is good and to avoid what is evil
WELL it has NO LOVE IN THAT MESSAGE .
WHY do you THINK GOD warns . Because HE LOVES and desires not the death and destruction of any .
TIME we behold , learn and teach both the severity of GOD and the goodness .

@amigo de christo

 

[St. SteVen]

Which husband is loving.

The husband that says if you don’t love me the way I tell you to love me I’ll burn y you alive forever and ever or the husband that says no matter what you do, I’ll love you and we will find a way forward.

--- PARODY ---

Christian: God is love!
Prospect: What about the "hell" thing?
Christian: Oh, that's God's justice.
Prospect: How is that justice?
Christian: God has two sides.
Prospect: You mean he is two-faced, as in untrustworthy.
Christian: No, he is totally trustworthy.
Prospect: But aren't I currently in danger of hell?
Christian: Yes, but we can fix that?
Prospect: Fix it? Why is it even there if God is trustworthy?
Christian: Put your trust in Jesus and God will protect you.
Prospect: So, Jesus died to save me from God?
Christian: Well... I suppose he did...
Prospect: Are you nuts?

]

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

Christ preached on both , as did paul and others .
Very good and very wise is it to always behold BOTH the Goodness and the Severity of GOD .
Knowing the Terror of GOD we persaude men .
Show both . show how wonderful it will be for the beleiver and how deadly for all who denied Him .
Focus on the Coming of the LORD , focus on the preaching of the gospel .

If you threaten unbelievers with hell and they come into the church as members, you get people who have a human terror of God, not ones who have a godly respect, reverence, and awe of him. The latter people are true believers, not the former ones. So, you have false conversions.

 

[amigo de christo]

If you threaten unbelievers with hell and they come into the church as members, you get people who have a human terror of God, not ones who have a godly respect, reverence, and awe of him. The latter people are true believers, not the former ones. So, you have false conversions.

worry not my friend . We cannot produce a conversion . yes you heard me correct .
What we must do is speak the truth . whether warning or etc .
The problem with man is HE keeps thinking what must i do , how can i win
Maybe i should say this , maybe i should not say that .
SPEAK TRUTH . ONLY GOD can give the increase .
The sooner folks learn that the better off they would have been . TOO MANY MEN say this or that
runs off people and we need to preach it like this and omit that .
TO be honest i would not heed a word outta they mouth . Seeker friendly came of satan
and it was meant for one reason . GET THE CHURCH NUMBERS UP , GROW THE CHURCH
and it was all modeled after What pleased man to get man into the church .
YOU BET folks who are in sin DO NOT want to hear one reminder about a GOD who will hold them accountable to their sin .
THEY RATHER HEED A god that overlooks their sin and just says all is well .
I dont heed a word uttered from their lips . But if we want to seem some examples of evanglising
I suggest we all look at HOW JESUS did things and later teh apostels did things .
Believe you me they did warn and they ALSO gave the people the SOLUTOIN , the ANSWER .
ANYTIME one says OH I LEFT GOD ,and then makes any excuse for why they did
ALWAYS REMEMBER , Folks leave GOD or wont come to GOD for one reason . YOU CAN BET ITS RELATED TO THEIR SIN
and what they desired . AND IF MEN spoke against it , WELL they didnt want to hear that kind of speech .

 

[amigo de christo]

If you threaten unbelievers with hell and they come into the church as members, you get people who have a human terror of God, not ones who have a godly respect, reverence, and awe of him. The latter people are true believers, not the former ones. So, you have false conversions.

Man cannot produce a conversion . so man needs to hush his carnal wisdom
and simply speak the truth .
Bruce , do NOT see this as an attack . But for decades now
leaders have taught us HOW to evanglize and yet its all been based carnal intellect .
OH if we say this , if we dont say that ,
SPEAK THE TRUTH baby . Who so ever hears amen .
I invite us to look at HOW peter preached
or paul , or others , OR JESUS HIMSELF .
THEY SURE DIDNT seem so darn worried about what MIGHT OFFEND man .
IN fact allow me to bring you a reminder
about what JESUS told his own desciples WHEN THEY SEEM A BIT TOO WORRIED ABOUT WHAT OFFENDED MAN .
BUT LORD dont you know this SAYING OFFENDED THEM .
What did JESUs say next .
OH DEAR , i better tone it down . MAYBE i should say more encouraging things
MAYBE i should try and make them feel more comfortable .
NOPE .
HE said leave them be they the blind leading the blind and every plant that my FATHER has not planted
will be rooted up .
NOT YOU , NOT ME , NO MAN can make A conversion . BUT WE SURE CAN SPEAK TRUTH
and who so ever hears , WELL THANK GOD THEY DID . who so ever rejects , THE TRUTH IS NOT IN THEM .

 

[amigo de christo]

If you threaten unbelievers with hell and they come into the church as members, you get people who have a human terror of God, not ones who have a godly respect, reverence, and awe of him. The latter people are true believers, not the former ones. So, you have false conversions.

If we preach a lie , a false love , a false version of GOD , THEN WE DO HAVE FALSE CONVERTS .
many churches have swollen to the full with numbers under and by the methods of men .
THE ONLY PROBLEM IS , IT was all carnal intellect . THEY fished for men with the WRONG bait .
the bait that pleased them and did not offend them .
Speak the truth . let the words fall unto all . Those who hear AMEN . those who reject DO so unto their own destruction .
WORRY not about what to say . TRUST IN THE LORD and HE shall give thee a mouth .