I have a question that remains unanswered:
- Thread starter Robert Gwin
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What has Acts 9:4 got to do with Jesus and the Church being one? Why are you so careless with the Word of God?
Acts 9:4 He fell on the earth, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”
Jesus was dead - he told us so:
Rev 1:17-18 When I saw him, I fell at his feet like a dead man. He laid his right hand on me, saying, “Don’t be afraid. I am the first and the last, (18) and the Living one. I was dead, and behold, I am alive forever and ever. Amen. I have the keys of Death and of Hades.
God cannot die, but Jesus could, and did die. God resurrected His Son and gave hiim the immortal divine nature, so now Jesus can never die again.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
“O LORD, please open his eyes that he may see.” 2 Kings 6:17
There is only one church jn 10:16 established by Christ on the apostles eph 2:20
no really died
But only in his humanity
- Romans 5:6
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations - Romans 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ diedfor us.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations - Romans 8:34
Who is he that condemneth? It is Christthat died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations - Romans 14:9
For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Transla
1. The Cloak of Christ (Mark 5:25-34; Luke 8:43:48; Matthew 9:20-22)
The first example of physical relicspossessing supernatural powers comes from the Gospels.
Recorded in Matthew, Mark, and Luke the account of a woman touching the hem of Jesus’ cloak in order to be healed presents an exceptionally compelling case for the power of physical things. This woman, the Gospels tell us, knew that if she could only touch the hem of Jesus’ cloak she would be healed.
We know from examples in the Old Testament that Jewish believers in Jesus’ time understood the power of God at work through physical relics. The story of Elisha’s bones bringing to life a dead man (2 Kings 13:20-22) would’ve been a well-known text for God-fearing Jews, and this is just a singular example.
Like her first century contemporaries, the bleeding woman depicted in the Gospels knew that physical relics like the cloak of Christ carried a special grace. And of course she did, the Jewish faith was very physical in its practice, its rituals, and its understanding of God—think of the burning bush, the Ten Commandments, the physical, sacrificial system.
Sure, the bleeding woman could’ve reached out and grasped Christ but the Gospel writers make it clear: she needed only touch his cloak.
2. Paul’s Dirty Laundry (Acts 19:12)
Our second piece of biblical backing comes from the Acts of the Apostles. Here, in Acts 19, we see God performing incredible miracles through “the hands of Paul.” Miracles which extend, incredibly, to the physical relics which have come into contact with the great apostle: his dirty laundry.
Acts 19:11-12 says,
God was performing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were even carried from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out. (NASB)
Like the power dispelled to the bleeding woman who touched Christ’s cloak, the power of God somehow remained even on the garments which were worn by Paul. Literally, his dirty laundry.
The Shadow of St. Peter (Acts 5:12-16)
Our final example isn’t exactly a physical relic but rather something even more sublime: the physical place where an apostle used to be.
Acts 5:12-16 gives us this incredible account,
Now many signs and wonders were regularly done among the people by the hands of the apostles. And they were all together in Solomon’s Portico. 13 None of the rest dared join them, but the people held them in high esteem. 14 And more than ever believers were added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women, 15 so that they even carried out the sick into the streets and laid them on cots and mats, that as Peter came by at least his shadow might fall on some of them. 16 The people also gathered from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing the sick and those afflicted with unclean spirits, and they were all healed. (ESV)
Not only were the physical things which had touched Jesus and the apostles held in particular importance—accorded a special place—but even the shadow of an apostle like Peter was seen as something which could channel God’s healing graces.
Quite literally, the place where he’d just been was infused with supernatural grace.
If, then, the Jewish people of Jesus’ time were people who understood and sought out the graces of God through the physical realm it shouldn’t surprise us when relics like the Shroud of Turin or alleged pieces of the True Cross on which Jesus was crucified turn up in Church history.
After all, if the Jewish believers in Jesus’ time understood the power of his cloak, Paul’s dirty laundry, and the mere shadow of an apostle it shouldn’t surprise us that they’d collect Jesus’ burial cloth when it was found abandoned in his empty tomb (John 20:7). Or that his most earnest disciples wouldn’t try to acquire the cross on which he was crucified—and victorious over!
Pythagorean12
Active Member
Serious tap dancing there. No scriptures.
But you go ahead and believe in relics .
Pythagorean12
Active Member
Pythagorean12
Active Member
yes it follows logically that Saul was persecuting the church
Jesus said why persecute me?
so christ and his church are one
Also 1 Tim 3:15 the church is the pillar of truth, jn 14:6 Christ is the truth
eph 5:32
Christ and his church are one
Or Christ continues his mission and ministry in the church
no scripture
why are you so faithless?
2 king 13:21 And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Bless your heart for willfully confounding the body of Christ with your denomination.
Lifelong_sinner
Well-Known Member
Crazy catholics on one side, delusional Unitarians on the other. Whats a protestant to do. 
Pray for them, bear with them, and if all else fails, put them on ignore! Like they may do with you, too! LolCrazy catholics on one side, delusional Unitarians on the other. Whats a protestant to do.
I did not know that I had a denomination!
and no it’s not less than a thousand words either
The truth rarely is
Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4
Saul was persecuting the church, and Christ said “why persecute me”? Acts 9:4
Rebellion and rejection of the church or apostles or council or teaching of church or apostles or council is rebellion and rejection of Christ!
Christ and his church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32
The church and the apostles exist by his commands and authority! Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 Jn 20:21-23
An attack on the church is an attack on Christ!
There is an unbreakable union between Christ and His Holy Church!
Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Lk 10:16 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Gates of hell shall NOT PREVAIL!
There is only one true church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles and their successors, it is the new covenant body of Christ! Matt 16:18 One fold
Jn 10:16 the household of faith! Gal 6:10
1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
Christ and His church are one, what Christ did the church continues to do, the church is an extension of Christ!
To attack the church is to attack Christ!
Acts 9:4 Jn 20:21-23
Eph 5: 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?
Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!
Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...
John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, so send in you. (The apostles) posses the same power mission and authority as Christ!
Peter, the apostles and their successors!
Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18
matt 28:19 Jn 20:21-23 Isa 22:21-22
eph 2:20
Ephesians 5:24
Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ...
There is only one true church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles and their successors, it is the new covenant body of Christ! Matt 16:18 One fold
Jn 10:16 the household of faith! Gal 6:10
The church is the ark of salvation, to attack the church is to attack salvation!
St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13
Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16
1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)
Pythagorean12
Active Member
Pythagorean12
Active Member
I'm faithless as pertains to the Roman rite church, yes.
And no, that's not supporting the use of relics as having holy power.
The man described had an accident. He fell into the grave and revived when he struck the bones. That's not a ritual that's an accidental fall.
Further, it doesn't say the man that fell was dead.
Lastly, there is no admonition to resort to relics for any supernatural purpose. Quite the opposite really. 2 Kings 18:4
