I hate myself, and hate being an atheist.

[Cerraco]

Believe and be saved. Don’t believe and perish. That’s simple and straightforward.

I don't think there are enough English words in existence I could use to dig into these words right here...

 

[Matthias]

I don't think there are enough English words in existence I could use to dig into these words right here...

It’s not as difficult as you think it is and I’m willing to help you dig into them. Primitive Christian concepts are much simpler than the Greek concepts that others you’ve spoken with embrace and have shared with you.

For example: You are a mortal soul / person and you are truly going to die. You have life now. A time will come when you will be lifeless. What is difficult to understand about that?

Grasp that simple concept and you’re already biblically miles ahead of those who teach that you were born an immortal soul / person and will therefore never truly die.

 

[PGS11]

The only thing I would add is this life is hard its not your imagination..Everything fades away as fast as it comes even your thought and feelings.Even love can fade away and only become a distant memory .Happiness is a moment here that is immediately lost and there is a sadness there because you know this as it fades away.We keep trying to recreate that moment to try to find the happiness all our life never really being successful hanging on to it. We want to be eternally happy we know it exists but we know we can't have that here.You can only possess and never own because all will be lost at some point - you can buy it but you never really own it and everyone we know will slowly pass from our life forever even those closest to you.Then even the memory of your loved ones lost will begin to fade.Everything around you is rotting into the ground and has to be constantly maintained.Death is in everything how can we be happy here.We sense something is missing but we can't put our finger on it.This is a fallen world just as the bible says there is no eternity here.The human soul will always seek the eternal we were made for it - its what that yearning is inside you.

You live this life by faith even if you don't believe in God faith is hope and we all live by the hope of whats to come.

 

[Matthias]

Neither @Cerraco. Neither.

If you died tonight you would be in the unconscious sleep of death. You would be buried in a grave, awaiting bodily resurrection to judgement.

 

[Cerraco]

It’s not as difficult as you think it is and I’m willing to help you dig into them. Primitive Christian concepts are much simpler than the Greek concepts that others you’ve spoken with embrace and have shared with you.

No dude, no no no. That's not what I'm saying. When I talk about digging in those words, I meant that to be infinitely more negative and insulting to that statement you made. You guys want me to understand Jesus, fine. You guys want me to "go with god", that's a bit difficult seeing as there's no concrete proof but fine. Of course a Christian is gonna say that anyway...

When Christians do this "do exactly this, or lake of fire", that's when things get awkward. Because if that's truly the case, then god is not as loving and forgiving as everyone thinks he is. It's stuff like that that makes a lot of people despise Christianity.

For example: You are a mortal soul / person and you are truly going to die. You have life now. A time will come when you will be lifeless. What is difficult to understand about that?

That wasn't the part I had trouble understanding.

 

[Matthias]

No dude, no no no. That's not what I'm saying. When I talk about digging in those words, I meant that to be infinitely more negative and insulting to that statement you made.

Why do you want to be “infinitely more negative and insulting“? What would doing so accomplish for you?

You guys …

If you want to speak with me, please speak to me as an individual. I’m not a Christian as defined by Christianity Board.

… want me to understand Jesus, fine.

I haven’t spent much time speaking with you about Jesus.

You guys …

Please, make it personal. I’m not speaking to “you atheists.“ I’m speaking to you, a person, not a group of persons.

… want me to "go with god", that's a bit difficult seeing as there's no concrete proof but fine. Of course a Christian is gonna say that anyway...

I’ve never asked anyone to ”go with god”.

When Christians do this "do exactly this, or lake of fire", that's when things get awkward.

What do you want them to talk about with you? What conversation with them would you find comfortable instead of awkward?

Because if that's truly the case, then god is not as loving and forgiving as everyone thinks he is.

You’re an atheist, not an agnostic. What you know about a loving and forgiving god is exactly nothing. After all, what is there to know about a being that you are fully persuaded doesn’t exist?

It's stuff like that that makes a lot of people despise Christianity.

A word of advice then: If you want an easier life, don’t read the Bible and stop talking with Christians.

That wasn't the part I had trouble understanding.

You should be clear about whatever it is that you don’t understand IF you really do want to understand.

 

[Lambano]

When Christians do this "do exactly this, or lake of fire", that's when things get awkward. Because if that's truly the case, then god is not as loving and forgiving as everyone thinks he is. It's stuff like that that makes a lot of people despise Christianity.

If you want to speak with me, please speak to me as an individual. I’m not a Christian as defined by Christianity Board.

Okay. I understand that 79% of people identifying as "Christian" believe in Hell (source: Pew Poll on the Afterlife). The poll didn't define "Hell", but it's generally understood as a place of eternal torment for the wicked and non-believers, and that implied blackmail is definitely a push-button issue with non-believers and about 21% of Christian believers. Love under the threat of torment is not love, and if the god of the universe is a monster with his own private torture-chamber, how could you even trust him to keep his promises? This extortion attempt is what non-believers see in their interactions with 4 out of 5 Christians.

While this issue (and the emotional baggage thereof) may need to be addressed, Cerraco, please bear in mind that "Christianity" is clearly NOT monolithic.

 

[Spyder]

No dude, no no no. That's not what I'm saying. When I talk about digging in those words, I meant that to be infinitely more negative and insulting to that statement you made. You guys want me to understand Jesus, fine. You guys want me to "go with god", that's a bit difficult seeing as there's no concrete proof but fine. Of course a Christian is gonna say that anyway...

When Christians do this "do exactly this, or lake of fire", that's when things get awkward. Because if that's truly the case, then god is not as loving and forgiving as everyone thinks he is. It's stuff like that that makes a lot of people despise Christianity.

That wasn't the part I had trouble understanding.

You are where I have been. I would say that, instead of being atheist, I didn't think about God at all.

Trying to find your way through this world in forums is a huge challenge. So much is dependent on our views of words and meanings without body language and facial expressions that we can totally misunderstand what we read.

I didn't find my way back to God until I had been married to a woman when chose to go to church and asked me to come with her - for 14 years.

I pray that you meet someone who is able and willing to talk to you in person where communication actually occurs.

 

[Matthias]

”And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, ‘The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished;’”

(Exodus 34:6-7, NIV)

”Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God;”

(Romans 11:22, NIV)

 

[Cerraco]

Why do you want to be “infinitely more negative and insulting“? What would doing so accomplish for you?

It accomplishes me making a point. People telling me to try and understand Jesus more is fine, and things were starting pretty strong, but when I see stuff like "either jesus or lake of fire", that's when I start rolling my eyes.

If you want to speak with me, please speak to me as an individual. I’m not a Christian as defined by Christianity Board.

You are not the first person to hit with me the "lake of fire" stuff.

You should be clear about whatever it is that you don’t understand IF you really do want to understand.

I still don't understand what you're saying. You're talking about this extinction event.

When I said I'd prefer to not exist, that is something that I eternally will never have. I'm not talking about me existing, and then not existing later. I'm talking about being erased from time. This isn't quite the topic of suicide, but it's me saying that I didn't need to be born in the first place. That's not me just hating myself, but that's me seeing that I don't see an objective reason for me to exist. A lot of Christians would say "you're born because god decided it", when it was really because two people humped and a fast sperm became a person.

The hopeless path you’re presently on leads to your desired destruction in the lake of fire. All you have to do is continue what you’re already doing: don’t investigate Jesus’ resurrection and forget about his teaching and the future life he offers.

Imagine going to hell forever because you didn't look far enough into something. A path being hopeless does not need to be met with eternal hell.

 

[Matthias]

It accomplishes me making a point.

Your point was already made. Added negativity and insult is unnecessary.

People telling me to try and understand Jesus more is fine, and things were starting pretty strong, but when I see stuff like "either jesus or lake of fire", that's when I start rolling my eyes.

You’ll be rolling your eyes then if / when you get around to reading the Bible.

You are not the first person to hit with me the "lake of fire" stuff.

I wouldn’t think so. Every person you speak with about the Bible who has read the Bible will sooner or later “hit” you with it.

I still don't understand what you're saying. You're talking about this extinction event.

The lake of fire is an extinction event for those who will be thrown into it. What is it exactly that you don’t understand about extinction and/or its connection with the lake of fire? If you’ll clarify the sticking point for me I’ll elaborate on it.

When I said I'd prefer to not exist, that is something that I eternally will never have. I'm not talking about me existing, and then not existing later. I'm talking about being erased from time.

We discussed that earlier in our conversation. I haven’t forgotten it.

This isn't quite the topic of suicide, but it's me saying that I didn't need to be born in the first place.

You are the clay complaining to the potter about being created. You can read the story in the Bible sometime, if you want to.

That's not me just hating myself, but that's me seeing that I don't see an objective reason for me to exist.

Do you not see any objective reason for human beings, in general, to exist?

A lot of Christians would say "you're born because god decided it", when it was really because two people humped and a fast sperm became a person.

You’ve made it clear that you hate yourself. Do you also hate your parents?

Imagine going to hell forever because you didn't look far enough into something.

No one is going to go hell forever (hell itself, we are told by Jesus, will be destroyed in the lake of fire) and no one is going to the lake of fire because they didn’t look far enough into something (they will be judged by what they did in life.)

A path being hopeless does not need to be met with eternal hell.

Agreed. What, in your opinion, does it need to be met with?

 

[Cerraco]

You’ll be rolling your eyes then if / when you get around to reading the Bible.

Oh don't worry, that's already happened. And I don't mean that in the form of bashing anyone's beliefs, and I don't think the entire Bible is necessarily that bad, or even wrong. But that was a book written by people, not God himself. I don't doubt that many mentioned events in that book happened, but overall, it does not work as a history book, and conflicts unspeakably bad with the mechanics of real life.

The lake of fire is an extinction event for those who will be thrown into it. What is it exactly that you don’t understand about extinction and/or its connection with the lake of fire? If you’ll clarify the sticking point for me I’ll elaborate on it.

Okay, so the logic is this: because I didn't investigate Jesus enough, I am thrown into some lava pit or something, then my soul just stops existing? Talk about the punishment not really fitting the crime. I have to give credit where it's due though, because actually no, that's really awful.

You are the clay complaining to the potter about being created. You can read the story in the Bible sometime, if you want to.

Look at the lives of some people, some of those globs of clay have a right to complain.

Do you not see any objective reason for human beings, in general, to exist?

not really.

You’ve made it clear that you hate yourself. Do you also hate your parents?

Sometimes, yes. They are good people, but decided to not prepare before having a child, which complicated things very badly growing up.

No one is going to go hell forever (hell itself, we are told by Jesus, will be destroyed in the lake of fire) and no one is going to the lake of fire because they didn’t look far enough into something (they will be judged by what they did in life.)

Duuuude, this is what I was talking about before. You said something like "if you don't investigate jesus/stay on your current path you go into the lake of fire, simple as that".

Agreed. What, in your opinion, does it need to be met with?

You said it in the last quote. The kind of life someone lived, but a lot of people who believe in the bible have this thing where you need to have this 'perfect life score' otherwise you go to hell. And I know you don't me grouping you with all Christians, which is not what I'm doing, but we are talking about the bible, and that's the kind of thing that goes into people's heads when they read and believe the bible. Is someone not Christian? Straight to hell. Is someone Jewish? Straight to hell. Don't believe in Jesus but was a good person anyway? Straight to hell.

Having a good life is not enough, every neuron in your head needs to think exactly like this, this and this, and then maybe you get this chance of getting to heaven. That's why I believe some - not all - stories of NDEs (at least of other atheists) because a lot of them see heaven, and are not tied down by what their beliefs are, but who they are as a person.

 

[Taken]

Having a good life is not enough, but who they are as a person.

According to your understanding…
Who are YOU…as a person?


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Matthias]

Oh don't worry, that's already happened. And I don't mean that in the form of bashing anyone's beliefs, and I don't think the entire Bible is necessarily that bad, or even wrong. But that was a book written by people, not God himself. I don't doubt that many mentioned events in that book happened, but overall, it does not work as a history book, and conflicts unspeakably bad with the mechanics of real life.

The Bible is inspired by the God whom you don’t believe exists.

Okay, so the logic is this: because I didn't investigate Jesus enough, I am thrown into some lava pit or something, then my soul just stops existing? Talk about the punishment not really fitting the crime. I have to give credit where it's due though, because actually no, that's really awful.

You’ve constructed a straw man and told me how awful your straw man logic is. I’ve already told you that that isn’t why anyone will be thrown into the lake of fire.

Look at the lives of some people, some of those globs of clay have a right to complain.

Complain to who? The God whom you don’t believe exists?

Complain about what? The hopelessness of their lives, ruined by themselves or by others?

To what end?

not really.

Thanks.

Godless evolution -> No objective purpose in life. Hopelessness.

God’s creation -> Objective purpose in life. Hopefulness.

Sometimes, yes. They are good people, but decided to not prepare before having a child, which complicated things very badly growing up.

Hating good people is the fruit of your unbelief.

Duuuude, this is what I was talking about before. You said something like "if you don't investigate jesus/stay on your current path you go into the lake of fire, simple as that".

I encourage everyone to investigate Jesus. You’ve added the bit about not investigating him long enough. As for the path you’re currently on, it leads to the destruction of life in the lake of fire.

You said it in the last quote. The kind of life someone lived, but a lot of people who believe in the bible have this thing where you need to have this 'perfect life score' otherwise you go to hell.

They’re wrong.

And I know you don't me grouping you with all Christians, which is not what I'm doing, but we are talking about the bible, and that's the kind of thing that goes into people's heads when they read and believe the bible.

It shouldn’t. I read and believe the Bible. It’s certainly not the kind of thing that‘s in my head.

Is someone not Christian? Straight to hell.

That’s false teaching.

Is someone Jewish? Straight to hell.

That’s false teaching.

Don't believe in Jesus but was a good person anyway? Straight to hell.

That’s false teaching.

Having a good life is not enough, every neuron in your head needs to think exactly like this, this and this, and then maybe you get this chance of getting to heaven.

That’s false teaching.

That's why I believe some - not all - stories of NDEs (at least of other atheists) because a lot of them see heaven, and are not tied down by what their beliefs are, but who they are as a person.

What has listening to false teaching and fellow atheists done for your hopelessness? It appears to me that all it has done is to underscore it.

Is that a bad thing? I don’t think so.

 

[Cerraco]

The Bible is inspired by the God whom you don’t believe exists.

I don't know if I used this term here before, but the term anti-atheist would fit better for me. I don't know how many of my earlier posts you've seen, but I have mentioned that I do believe Jesus, his disciples and all of his trials existed/happened. My belief in God is not 0%, but still a moderately low number.

Thanks.

Godless evolution -> No objective purpose in life. Hopelessness.

God’s creation -> Objective purpose in life. Hopefulness.

You're saying "Thanks." like I'm trying to be mean and insult everyone, that's not the context. What is the purpose of us being here?

Hating good people is the fruit of your unbelief.

Let me rephrase what I said earlier: I don't hate my parents, but I hate how they didn't prepare for a child before having me.

I encourage everyone to investigate Jesus. You’ve added the bit about not investigating him long enough. As for the path you’re currently on, it leads to the destruction of life in the lake of fire.

Just for clarification, name some things I'm doing on this path that entails me being thrown in a lake of fire. Aside from not investigating Jesus.

It shouldn’t. I read and believe the Bible. It’s certainly not the kind of thing that‘s in my head.

People seem to have their own interpretations of that 2000-year-old book. Some take it extremely literally, some don't.

What has listening to false teaching and fellow atheists done for your hopelessness? It appears to me that all it has done is to underscore it.

Is that a bad thing? I don’t think so.

Let me put it like this. A lot of people think a near-death experience is the brain just freaking out and doing weird things before death. Funny how so many people "hallucinate" seeing the afterlife, and not much else. This is why an NDE of an atheist would be the most convincing, because they're seeing something they didn't even believe. They went to an afterlife they deserved, but would never believe existed until they saw it.

 

[Matthias]

I don't know if I used this term here before, but the term anti-atheist would fit better for me. I don't know how many of my earlier posts you've seen, but I have mentioned that I do believe Jesus, his disciples and all of his trials existed/happened. My belief in God is not 0%, but still a moderately low number.

Stricly speaking then, you aren’t an atheist; you’re actually an agnostic. The title of your thread is misleading.

Since you believe all these things happened, why aren’t you a disciple of Jesus? It is his and their testimony that we are directed to. We either believe their testimony or we don’t.

You're saying "Thanks." like I'm trying to be mean and insult everyone, that's not the context.

I said “thanks” because I appreciated you responding to the question. I wasn’t certain that you would.

What is the purpose of us being here?

On this forum? I’m here, primarily, to find respite from the stress of my work with neglected, abused and at-risk children. What is your purpose for being here?

The bigger question is, why did God create man? That’s not a question easily addressed by atheists and agnostics. If you‘ve read the Bible then you will have read why God created man.

Let me rephrase what I said earlier: I don't hate my parents, but I hate how they didn't prepare for a child before having me.

Given what I just said about my purpose for being here, I think you’ll understand with greater insight and appreciation when I say that I’m glad to hear that.

Just for clarification, name some things I'm doing on this path that entails me being thrown in a lake of fire. Aside from not investigating Jesus.

You don’t love God. You don’t love yourself. A person who doesn’t love himself doesn’t love his neighbor properly.

People seem to have their own interpretations of that 2000-year-old book. Some take it extremely literally, some don't.

If you’re interested, see my comments on Paul’s warning and Church history.

Let me put it like this. A lot of people think a near-death experience is the brain just freaking out and doing weird things before death. Funny how so many people "hallucinate" seeing the afterlife, and not much else. This is why an NDE of an atheist would be the most convincing, because they're seeing something they didn't even believe. They went to an afterlife they deserved, but would never believe existed until they saw it.

You’re currently more convinced by dying atheists than you are by the living God and the Messiah.

The atheists who have died are still dead and in the grave. Every single one of them. They haven’t yet been judged, and therefore haven’t yet received what they’ve earned. They will.

P.S.

Have you read the Bible from Genesis through Revelation? If you have, when was the last time that you did?

 

[Matthias]

… I meant that to be infinitely more negative and insulting to that statement you made.

The statement is a summarization of the Messiah’s teaching. When you reject his teaching you reject him. When you reject him you reject not only him but also the one true God who sent him.

The Messiah is a king. Can you honestly say, at the moment, that you want him to reign over you?

I was reading Luke 19 this morning. I’ll quote v. 27 from the Messiah’s parable for you -

“And as for my enemies who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and execute them in front of me.”

The enemies of Jesus (and his God, the Father) - and that is what you are at the moment - will not inherit immortality. They will die a second time.

 

[Cerraco]

Stricly speaking then, you aren’t an atheist; you’re actually an agnostic. The title of your thread is misleading.

Ehhhhh, nah. Let's stick with anti-atheist for now: an atheist that wants to be wrong, but doesn't really see the proof.

Since you believe all these things happened, why aren’t you a disciple of Jesus? It is his and their testimony that we are directed to. We either believe their testimony or we don’t.

You're jumping too far ahead here. Just because I believe Jesus existed doesn't automatically make me a Christian. My belief ends at the whole "rose from the dead" thing. Because that doesn't fit with how reality works. Believing some dude existed 2000 years ago doesn't make me thing, "I'm a disciple now!" whatever that means.

On this forum? I’m here, primarily, to find respite from the stress of my work with neglected, abused and at-risk children. What is your purpose for being here?

Okay, so wait... what is the context here? My reason for being on the forum? Or my reason for existing altogether?

You don’t love God. You don’t love yourself. A person who doesn’t love himself doesn’t love his neighbor properly.

I had to live a very rejected and embarrassed life. I was always screamed at, always yelled at, always singled out and humiliated just because. I don't think I got a valentine from a chick, never got a carnation at school, I was an afterthought, an abstract being that was less important than almost anyone else because... that's just how it was.

I already went over how I was rejected because I wasn't "cool enough", or not good-looking enough. I had to watch everyone around me, including most of my friends, get the girl while I was just there. When you live a life like that, you start to question why you even exist. Is that part of "g0d's plAn"? I didn't really win a lot of things. I already talked about how much of a night terror school is, especially in the U.S. That alpha dbag forum I was at called me a sub-5/10 and said that getting with random girls on Craigslist or an escort was "probably the only way". Sweet Jesus do I hate the world. I hate it.

You’re currently more convinced by dying atheists than you are by the living God and the Messiah.

Uhhhhhhh..??? These atheists are real, existing people. I don't go outside and see this "living God and the Messiah" walking around.

The atheists who have died are still dead and in the grave. Every single one of them. They haven’t yet been judged, and therefore haven’t yet received what they’ve earned. They will.

Why does it have to take so long for an atheist to go somewhere? I don't even get this.

P.S.

Have you read the Bible from Genesis through Revelation? If you have, when was the last time that you did?

A very long time ago.

 

[Matthias]

Ehhhhh, nah. Let's stick with anti-atheist for now: an atheist that wants to be wrong, but doesn't really see the proof.

You're jumping too far ahead here. Just because I believe Jesus existed doesn't automatically make me a Christian. My belief ends at the whole "rose from the dead" thing. Because that doesn't fit with how reality works. Believing some dude existed 2000 years ago doesn't make me thing, "I'm a disciple now!" whatever that means.

Okay, so wait... what is the context here? My reason for being on the forum? Or my reason for existing altogether?

I had to live a very rejected and embarrassed life. I was always screamed at, always yelled at, always singled out and humiliated just because. I don't think I got a valentine from a chick, never got a carnation at school, I was an afterthought, an abstract being that was less important than almost anyone else because... that's just how it was.

I already went over how I was rejected because I wasn't "cool enough", or not good-looking enough. I had to watch everyone around me, including most of my friends, get the girl while I was just there. When you live a life like that, you start to question why you even exist. Is that part of "g0d's plAn"? I didn't really win a lot of things. I already talked about how much of a night terror school is, especially in the U.S. That alpha dbag forum I was at called me a sub-5/10 and said that getting with random girls on Craigslist or an escort was "probably the only way". Sweet Jesus do I hate the world. I hate it.

Uhhhhhhh..??? These atheists are real, existing people. I don't go outside and see this "living God and the Messiah" walking around.

Why does it have to take so long for an atheist to go somewhere? I don't even get this.

A very long time ago.

Atheists have their part in the second resurrection. Jesus explained it and you read about it a very long time ago. It’s God’s order of things.

 

[Matthias]

Ehhhhh, nah. Let's stick with anti-atheist for now: an atheist that wants to be wrong, but doesn't really see the proof.

I came across this this afternoon and thought about you:

”Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Atheism is monkey-people religion”

x.com

x.com

Grist for your anti-atheist (Atheist Against Atheism?) mill. You won’t be able to effectively use the scripture against them / yourself but the criticism of atheism / evolution as a monkey—people religion might get through to some / yourself.

My belief ends at the whole "rose from the dead" thing.

If there is no God, then your belief logically excludes the concept of resurrection -> If there is no resurrection, Jesus would still be dead and buried in the tomb.

P.S.

Perhaps you recall from your reading of the Bible that this is the apostle Paul’s argument.