And regardless, God certainly does all those things and will certainly accomplish and will certainly finish those things, on those whom He saved/s.
Tong
R4011
Last edited:
I don't think Predestination means Salvation
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Tong
R4011
Taken
Well-Known Member
NOT TRUE.
That VERSE, neither SAYS, or IMPLIES...
"Practicing sin".
Read it AGAIN:
1 John 3:
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Whosoever...is he who IS born of God...
Are you AWARE Jesus was begotten of God?
Are you AWARE Jesus COULD NOT SIN?
Can you Answer these questions please?
** Are you AWARE WHAT SIN IS?
** Are you AWARE of WHO forgives SIN?
Remember when Jesus said...
"They know NOT WHAT THEY DO"?
You are Pretending...
The man made phrase "REAL CHRISTIAN" means something valuable...it doesn't.
You are Saying...Paul told the Truth...He did.
You are Saying...I do not tell the Truth.
I quoted Scripture....AS IT STANDS.
I didn't change Scriptures MEANING...
"YOU DID" !!
^ WHO is being deceptive from the get go?
NOT ME!!
Ignorning Deception...
Scripture is CLEAR...
A man BORN OF GOD...DOES NOT SIN!
^ THAT is an EXPRESS ESTABLISHED Relationship...BETWEEN ONE man & GOD.
Why do you WANDER OFF POINT and carry on and tell me about "Relationships" BETWEEN men? Who cares? Not news, men lie, cheat, steal from other men all day long.
WHAT does THAT ^ have to do with a mans Established Relationship WITH GOD?
NOTHING!
So Ignoring, your ... irrelevant "real christian", accusation of lying, and Paul's struggles, relationships between men...
try to stay ON POINT...
A mans relationship with God and WHY a man BORN of God, CAN NOT SIN.
Can you Answer these questions please?
** Are you AWARE WHAT SIN IS?
** Are you AWARE of WHO forgives SIN?
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Taken,
Would you consider a slightly different interpretation of this passage? I don't disagree with your main point concerning the central importance of being born of God. But I do not believe John is making the same claim that you seem to be making. I don't think he is suggesting that a child of God is incapable of moral failure, incapable of sin. And neither is he suggesting that sin indicates a person not born of God.
In order to make my point, consider the following translation produced by my bible teacher and my friend Dr. John A. Crabtree (Jac.)
Look at what sort of love the Father has given us that we should be called the offspring of
God. Indeed we are. For this reason the world does not know us, for it did not know
him. Beloved, even now we are offspring of God; but what we shall in fact become has
not yet been revealed. We do know that, when that has been revealed (in the sense that
we will actually see it for what it is), we shall be like him. Everyone who has his hope
fixed on this purifies himself just as the man, Jesus, is pure. (1John 3:1-3)
Everyone who commits sin does, in fact, commit lawlessness. Indeed, sin is
lawlessness. Now we know that the man, Jesus, was revealed in order to take away our
sins. So, in him, there is no sin. Everyone who remains a faithful follower of him
does not sin. Everyone who sins has not seen him and does not know him. Precious
offspring, no one is to mislead you. The one who does righteousness is dikaios, just as
the man, Jesus, is dikaios. (1John 3:4-7)
(emphasis mine)
In this translation, I think, it is easier to see John's point. I think I have misunderstood John for a very long time, thinking that he was making a general statement about all sin. But upon closer study, I discovered that John is focused on one particular sin: the sin of unbelief. Specifically, he is critical of those who refuse to believe that "the man Jesus" is God incarnate. Those who refuse to believe in Jesus are committing a grave sin, but those who remain his faithful follower are not committing the sin of unbelief. Contrary to John's detractors, it is not a sin (blaspheme) to believe that the man Jesus is truly the son of God. Those who hold this belief do not sin; rather, it is a sin for a man to refuse to believe that Jesus is the son of God.
John is not claiming, as I used to think, that those born of God never commit a sin. Rather, he is saying that those born of God never commit the sin of unbelief with respect to the truth that Jesus is the son of God.
Iconoclast
Active Member
Taken,
I sort of enjoy an online false teacher who accuses the brethren of not being saved, or not knowing truth, or changing scripture. Because upon scriptural examination they and their foul posting gets exposed. You are that person in this thread!
[NOT TRUE.]
Actually it is very true.
[That VERSE, neither SAYS, or IMPLIES...
"Practicing sin".]
That is exactly what it means showing your error
Read it AGAIN:
1 John 3:
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.]
The word of God is given in the greek, not english, here is what it literally says according to the verb tenses which are more clearly defined in the greek;
Wuest - Is born is a perfect participle in the Greek text, speaking of the past completed act of regeneration, namely, the impartation of the divine nature (2Pet 1:4-note) or divine life, and the present result, the fact that the person who has been made the recipient of divine life is by nature, and that permanently, a spiritually alive individual.
Wuest says practices - is poieō in the present tense which always speaks of continuous action unless the context limits it to punctiliar action, namely, the mere mention of the fact of the action, without the mentioning of details. The translation reads,
“Every one who has been born out of God, with the present result that he is a born-one (of God), does not habitually do sin.”
Spurgeon on practices sin - That is to say, he does not live in it, it is not the tenor of his life. He is not outwardly so that others could convict him of it, or inwardly so that his own conscience could chide him with it, a man who loves sin… Immortal principles forbid the child of God to sin (Ed: I would add "as a lifestyle"); the new-born life within us keeps us holy. We have our imperfections and infirmities over which we mourn; but no child of God can live in sin, and love it. He hates it; he is like a sheep that may fall into the mire, but he will not wallow in it, as the swine do. As soon as possible, he is up again out of the mud and the filth. He goes sorrowing, with broken bones, when he perceives that he has grieved his God. His life as a whole is a holy life."
Practices (poieo) sin - present tense = as the general direction of their life. Jon Courson "Because Jesus came to take away sin and to destroy the works of the devil, he who is truly born again doesn't practice sin."
MacDonald feels that John "is contrasting the regenerate man with the unregenerate, and is speaking of constant or habitual behavior. The believer does not have the sin habit. He does not defiantly continue in sin."
Henry Mahan - He that is regenerated by the Spirit of God, in whom Christ is formed, who is a new creature in Christ, does not make sin his practice and course of his life. He is not without the motions of sin within, nor free from thoughts, words and deeds of sin in his life, but he does not give himself up to sin, excuse it, nor continue in it as a servant of sin.
God’s nature and the grace of the Spirit abide in him and he cannot practice a life of sin; he is born of God! A life of sin is distasteful to him who pants after holiness and desire to be like Christ. (1 John 3 Commentary)
Oswald Chambers - “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin” (1 John 3:9). Do I seek to stop sinning or have I stopped sinning? To be born of God means that I have the supernatural power of God to stop sinning. In the Bible it is never — Should a Christian sin? The Bible puts it emphatically — A Christian must not sin. The effective working of the new birth life in us is that we do not commit sin, not merely that we have the power not to sin, but that we have stopped sinning. First John 3:9 does not mean that we cannot sin; it means that if we obey the life of God in us, we need not sin. (Signs of the New Birth)
[Whosoever...is he who IS born of God...
Are you AWARE Jesus was begotten of God?
Are you AWARE Jesus COULD NOT SIN?]
Are you aware Jesus is God?
[Can you Answer these questions please?
** Are you AWARE WHAT SIN IS?
** Are you AWARE of WHO forgives SIN?]
Sin is any lack of conformity to the law of God, any failing of obeying God perfectly, in thought word, or deed.
You sin everyday my friend. Your ungodly accusations are sin.
Sin is to miss the mark, over step the boundary, rebellion.
Do some actual bible study, before you launch an assault from your keyboard.
[Remember when Jesus said...
"They know NOT WHAT THEY DO"?]
Yes, I do.
[You are Pretending..]
No need to pretend anything. You and a few others made false statements, I offered correction.
[The man made phrase "REAL CHRISTIAN" means something valuable...it doesn't.
You are Saying...Paul told the Truth...He did.
You are Saying...I do not tell the Truth.]
Yes...you have posted error.
I sort of enjoy an online false teacher who accuses the brethren of not being saved, or not knowing truth, or changing scripture. Because upon scriptural examination they and their foul posting gets exposed. You are that person in this thread!
[NOT TRUE.]
Actually it is very true.
[That VERSE, neither SAYS, or IMPLIES...
"Practicing sin".]
That is exactly what it means showing your error
Read it AGAIN:
1 John 3:
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.]
The word of God is given in the greek, not english, here is what it literally says according to the verb tenses which are more clearly defined in the greek;
Wuest - Is born is a perfect participle in the Greek text, speaking of the past completed act of regeneration, namely, the impartation of the divine nature (2Pet 1:4-note) or divine life, and the present result, the fact that the person who has been made the recipient of divine life is by nature, and that permanently, a spiritually alive individual.
Wuest says practices - is poieō in the present tense which always speaks of continuous action unless the context limits it to punctiliar action, namely, the mere mention of the fact of the action, without the mentioning of details. The translation reads,
“Every one who has been born out of God, with the present result that he is a born-one (of God), does not habitually do sin.”
Spurgeon on practices sin - That is to say, he does not live in it, it is not the tenor of his life. He is not outwardly so that others could convict him of it, or inwardly so that his own conscience could chide him with it, a man who loves sin… Immortal principles forbid the child of God to sin (Ed: I would add "as a lifestyle"); the new-born life within us keeps us holy. We have our imperfections and infirmities over which we mourn; but no child of God can live in sin, and love it. He hates it; he is like a sheep that may fall into the mire, but he will not wallow in it, as the swine do. As soon as possible, he is up again out of the mud and the filth. He goes sorrowing, with broken bones, when he perceives that he has grieved his God. His life as a whole is a holy life."
Practices (poieo) sin - present tense = as the general direction of their life. Jon Courson "Because Jesus came to take away sin and to destroy the works of the devil, he who is truly born again doesn't practice sin."
MacDonald feels that John "is contrasting the regenerate man with the unregenerate, and is speaking of constant or habitual behavior. The believer does not have the sin habit. He does not defiantly continue in sin."
Henry Mahan - He that is regenerated by the Spirit of God, in whom Christ is formed, who is a new creature in Christ, does not make sin his practice and course of his life. He is not without the motions of sin within, nor free from thoughts, words and deeds of sin in his life, but he does not give himself up to sin, excuse it, nor continue in it as a servant of sin.
God’s nature and the grace of the Spirit abide in him and he cannot practice a life of sin; he is born of God! A life of sin is distasteful to him who pants after holiness and desire to be like Christ. (1 John 3 Commentary)
Oswald Chambers - “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin” (1 John 3:9). Do I seek to stop sinning or have I stopped sinning? To be born of God means that I have the supernatural power of God to stop sinning. In the Bible it is never — Should a Christian sin? The Bible puts it emphatically — A Christian must not sin. The effective working of the new birth life in us is that we do not commit sin, not merely that we have the power not to sin, but that we have stopped sinning. First John 3:9 does not mean that we cannot sin; it means that if we obey the life of God in us, we need not sin. (Signs of the New Birth)
[Whosoever...is he who IS born of God...
Are you AWARE Jesus was begotten of God?
Are you AWARE Jesus COULD NOT SIN?]
Are you aware Jesus is God?
[Can you Answer these questions please?
** Are you AWARE WHAT SIN IS?
** Are you AWARE of WHO forgives SIN?]
Sin is any lack of conformity to the law of God, any failing of obeying God perfectly, in thought word, or deed.
You sin everyday my friend. Your ungodly accusations are sin.
Sin is to miss the mark, over step the boundary, rebellion.
Do some actual bible study, before you launch an assault from your keyboard.
[Remember when Jesus said...
"They know NOT WHAT THEY DO"?]
Yes, I do.
[You are Pretending..]
No need to pretend anything. You and a few others made false statements, I offered correction.
[The man made phrase "REAL CHRISTIAN" means something valuable...it doesn't.
You are Saying...Paul told the Truth...He did.
You are Saying...I do not tell the Truth.]
Yes...you have posted error.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Does God save those who don't want to be saved? If not, then when do they discover that they want to be saved?
Taken
Well-Known Member
I do not believe John minced words. He was very percise.
Everyone who commits sin does, in fact, commit lawlessness. Indeed, sin is
lawlessness. Now we know that the man, Jesus, was revealed in order to take away our
sins. So, in him, there is no sin. Everyone who remains a faithful follower of him
does not sin.
John is not claiming, as I used to think, that those born of God never commit a sin. Rather, he is saying that those born of God never commit the sin of unbelief with respect to the truth that Jesus is the son of God.[/QUOTE]
There is Gods ONE Understanding...
and there is mans DUEL Understanding.
Men "under" the Law...who Believed in God...
God was....... WITH
Old Testament Covenant.
Men "not" Under the Law...who Believe in God....God IS ...... WITH
Both...of those examples...are men WHO "remain" in Believe, by their own effort and power.
THEY CAN FAULTER at any time, and fall away from Faith.
And with men OF the Earth INCREASING in Wickedness, threats, fear....men ARE groomed at all costs, to SAVE their Bodily life.
Much is elaborated in Scripture, of the URGENCY for such men to Take the next step.
And the Next Step....is What Jesus Offered;
??? TO BE..."WITH-IN", Christ, and Christ "WITH-IN" the man....FOREVER.
Notice the POWER CHANGE?
It is no longer A MAN, relying on his power...
IT is now A MAN, relying on Gods SUPREME POWER to KEEP the man FAITHFUL TO GOD.
John was Expressly speaking of an Exclusive relationship Between ONE MAN and God....and the Exclusive Gift unto such a man BORN OF GODS SEED...that NEVER AGAIN can that man SIN AGAINST GOD.
What does THAT have to do with relationships Between Man and Man? NOTHING.
Is man told to BELIEVE in man?
Is man told to WORSHIP a man?
Will a man forfeit his SOUL'S Gift of Salvation if he, lies, cheats, steals, kills, leaves, rejects another man?
No.
SIN is Against God, and ONLY God forgives SIN, and ONLY God Restores a mans soul, and ONLY God Quickens a mans spirit, and ONLY God KEEPS that man WITH AND "IN" God Forever.
IF you Study Scripture...There ARE "precepts" God has taught men from Ancient History.
Those are Gods "guidelines" for a FAVORABLE outcome for "relationships BETWEEN men".
Not news, men are NOT all knowing...
Cheating, Lying, stealing between men...
(Intended or by happenstance)...does occur.
AND GOD in His Wisdom gave EXPRESS teaching IN MEN "FORGIVING" MEN...
OF TRESPASSES!!
I am a gentile...never under OT Law.
My SIN AGAINST GOD was DISBELIEF.
My Lord Offered me a WAY to LEARN "ABOUT" Him...
My Lord Offered me a WAY to be "FORGIVEN" of my Disbelief IN Him.
My Lord Offered me a WAY to become "MADE", WITH and IN His Power.
My Lord, Offered me a WAY to become "KEPT" WITH and IN His POWER......FOREVER!
I CHOSE my Lord's WAY.
When you deflect to "everyone" and "relationships" between men...that is NOT what 1 John 3:9 is about.
It is specific about ONLY men born of God and their exclusive relationship WITH and IN God and God WITH and IN them...Forever.
Perhaps, study Trespasses...
Perhaps start with...
Eph 2:
[1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in Trespasses and Sins;
Two Different things.
Glory to God,
Taken
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Did I say John was being vague or imprecise? I don't think I did.
But I think you misunderstood what John said. And that is the topic of our conversation. You seem to be hearing one idea, but he intended another idea instead.
John says, "everyone who remains a faithful follower of him does not sin." You think he means to say, "followers of Jesus never sin." What John is actually saying is this, "It is not a sin to follow Jesus."
Your point about ability and power is not the subject of John's letter. He isn't answering the question, "how can I avoid sin?" The topic of his discussion is the false teaching that Jesus can't be the messiah because he was a human being. THAT is the topic of John's letter. The humanity of Jesus is a major theme in this letter, especially when John claims that the spirit of antichrist is the denial that Jesus, coming in the flesh, is the Christ.
Taken
Well-Known Member
And that was my point. John was expressly clear. CAN NOT SIN. What is it that you think I misunderstood, CAN NOT SIN?
Because what you are saying he meant was...
Don't make a habit of sinning.
I wasn't talking about "ideas"... Just facts.
HUH?
1 John 3:
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Crystal Clear...
And WHY...BECAUSE Gods SEED Remains in that man.
Do you know WHO and WHAT Gods SEED IS?
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
All Humanity is incorporated in Jesus. Awareness is brought to all peoples hearts in his ways and in his time in ways they can comprehend. None are passed by....just as he gives them physical life.
The voice that all men recognise pleads with all people.
We have circumscribed the Gospel by our theology and and in that sense limited it.
I read the Gospel was preached to Abraham. Galatians 3:8 'Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”
That is what you have been taught. But you will find in Hebrews 10:26-31 it is past tense.
Justification and sanctification is a one time event and together.
Glorification of our nature is a lifetime process and is now. Glorification of our body is at the resurrection when all the saints are changed whether from the grave or still living.
Glorification is receiving the glory Jesus gives us now so that we can become united. Read John 17. As we go through the process of becoming like Jesus in the steps in 2 Peter 1:5-7 we go from glory to glory, etc.
By the way, what have you been taught that sanctification involves. What happens to you?
Iconoclast
Active Member
Cl,
all three of these areas are large areas to work through. what you are describing as glorification is more accurately described as Saving Union in Christ. Spirit Baptism placed the whole body of Christ in Union with Him, one lord, one faith, one baptism.
This is realized at new birth when we are quickened by the Spirit of God. Like the shekinah glory filling Solomons temple we are indwelt and sealed by the Spirit. I will get you some links concerning sanctification.
Chapter 13: Of Sanctification
1. They who are united to Christ, effectually called, and regenerated, having a new heart and a new spirit created in them through the virtue of Christ's death and resurrection, are also farther sanctified, really and personally, through the same virtue, by His Word and Spirit dwelling in them; the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed, and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified, and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces, to the practice of all true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord. ( Acts 20:32; Romans 6:5, 6; John 17:17; Ephesians 3:16-19; 1 Thessalonians 5:21-23; Romans 6:14; Galatians 5:24; Colossians 1:11; 2 Corinthians 7:1; Hebrews 12:14 )
2. This sanctification is throughout the whole man, yet imperfect in this life; there abideth still some remnants of corruption in every part, whence ariseth a continual and irreconcilable war; the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. ( 1 Thessalonians 5:23; Romans 7:18, 23; Galatians 5:17; 1 Peter 2:11 )
3. In which war, although the remaining corruption for a time may much prevail, yet through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part doth overcome; and so the saints grow in grace, perfecting holiness in the fear of God, pressing after an heavenly life, in evangelical obedience to all the commands which Christ as Head and King, in His Word hath prescribed them. ( Romans 7:23; Romans 6:14; Ephesians 4:15, 16; 2 Corinthians 3:18; 2 Corinthians 7:1 )
I like 1 and 3, but 2 to me is defeatist. I don't agree with it at all. But the other two are great.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
You have taken the verse out of context, which is your first mistake. What do I mean? Your view understands 1John 3:9 in a universal sense, as if it stands alone. This is a problem because if we understand 1John 3:9 in isolation, we run into a contradiction between 1John 3:9 and 1John 2:1 If John meant to say that a person "in Christ" can not sin, then why write a letter to a group of Jesus followers in order to encourage them not to sin? He is encouraging them against sin because they CAN sin.
The contrast John sets up is NOT between those who CAN sin and those who CAN NOT sin. Beginning in chapter one, John begins to contrast those who "walk in darkness" and those who "walk in the light." And right off the bat his first point is this. Those who walk in the light confess their sins and admit themselves to be sinners. Those who confess they have sinned, are those who walk in the light. Those who refuse to confess they have sinned are walking in darkness.
According to John, if I am walking in the light, then will I confess my sins and I will also confess myself to be a sinner. But those who believe they CAN NOT sin, will never confess their sins and never confess themselves to be a sinner. (I have actually witnessed this myself.) According to John, those who think they cannot sin are walking in darkness.
Do you see the contradiction or not?
John would not contradict himself.
What you need to know is that John didn't say "can not sin" as some translations have it. John actually said "does not sin." But his statement is not intended as a universal statement concerning any sin a person might commit. He already said that if we confess our sins he is faithful to forgive and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. In this context, however, I notice the fact that John only speaks about TWO particular sins: 1) hatred of brother and 2) a refusal to believe in the name of his son Jesus Christ. When John says that a person born of God "does not sin", he refers to these two sins in particular. A person born of God will love his brother, and a person born of God will confess the name of Jesus Christ.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Does this answer my question though? If so, I missed it. You are suggesting that salvation is available to all, which is what I believe also. But you are also saying that not everyone wants this salvation. So my question is this, what is the explanation for the change of heart? What accounts for the fact that a person didn't want salvation yesterday, but suddenly wants it today?
Taken
Well-Known Member
No mistake.
What you mean, is YOUR OPINION.
1 John 3:9 has nothing to do with universal OPINIONS.
1 John 3:9 itself, establishes PRECISELY and ONLY to whom it APPLIES!
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
The word "sanctification" comes from the Latin "sanctus", which means "holy." Something is "holy" when a person or a thing is consecrated to serve God. The opposite of "holy" is "common" or "profane." A person is "holy" if God declares him or her to be holy. And typically, the declaration that a person is "holy" comes in the form of an outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Consider Acts chapter 10 where God is teaching Peter to rethink his position on Gentile salvation. In that context, God tells Peter, "What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.” Later in that same chapter we come to learn that the signal event associated with being "cleansed" is the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. God poured out his spirit on Cornelius and his family because God consecrated them.
Because of this, one could say that sanctification is a one-time event. (See also 2 Thessalonians 2:13)
In addition to this, though, the New Testament speaks about sanctification in terms of our behavior and our walk with the Lord. On the basis of our having been sanctified, we walk in a manner worthy of the Lord. And in this way, sanctification is something we practice 1 Thessalonians 4:3, or pursue. Hebrews 12:14
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
We all have opinions. I simply ask you to consider another interpretation. Perhaps we will talk again when you are ready to consider another one.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Taken
Well-Known Member
Sure we all have opinions.
Can not sin, means to me, Can not sin.
No, I will not consider Can not sin, means Can sin.
Iconoclast
Active Member
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