Human Freewill the devil's greatest trick

[2nd Timothy Group]

Amen,
Either we renew our minds with His word or, we are still bent towards worldly things.
Unbelievers are actually programmed, really. Programmed by this world through a gazillion of things and don't know it. Some, I dare to say a lot, of Christians as well.
The evil one is so very, very, very subtle.

If we renew our minds with the Living Word...He will reveal Himself to us more and more as our faith will allow!

Hebrews 11:6
"6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

Satan can ask all the questions he want's to and can condemn us every day, because, we already have an answer for him, just point to the cross. :)


Hello David!
This is quite the controversial subject. I think it scares many people away from God. It scares me that it IS true rather than not. The "I" in the Calvinists "doctrine" would have disqualified me for God's love and salvation as, they call it "Irresistible Grace".
As they describe this one, one is "compelled" or, almost "pushed" into chasing after God. For myself, it was kicking and screaming so, maybe I was not chosen? What does one do in that case? Just go on with their empty sad lost lives KNOWING they will be going to hell? This is exactly what happens. It did to me in the 90's and once again about 5 years back.
It has gotten to the point where I personally don't give a flip anymore. Either one is saved or their not. Why bother seeking a God who would PURPOSELY create some specifically for Hell to, as they say, "show His glorious wrath"? God is who He is and there is not a thing we can do to make Him love "some" when He does not as, He hated Esau so, why not hate me too? I don't like me very much at all, so why would He even "like" much less love me?
I must say that this doctrine truly does steal the joy of ones salvation, I know because I did walk away, honestly believing I was just some nice kindling for hell so, why bother seeking a God who hates me??
There are good arguments on both sides, and that is what scares me. I have many in my own family, cousins, nieces, nephews, friends...who have yet to be saved. They are Catholic but do not practice any kind of faith that I can see. Why evangelize, why pray for our loved ones to come to Jesus? If it's all said and done, all the prayer in the world will not change the fact that God did not choose them.
It just sounds the opposite of "Good News" to me bro.

I hear you, Nancy. I really do. You've said so much, and I wish that we could have routine coffee to talk about these things. I assure you of this . . . there are solid answers for every point you have made. As you know, discussing the most important ideas there are to discuss, it is difficult doing it through this format. Coffee with Sweet Cream is always better! :)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The scripture does not say "chose" that is your addition

Does it have to say chose?

so the gentiles doing good yet enemies of God, and the Jews being disobedient being gods people . Please explain this?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

God gave them the choice, Pharoah He did not give the choice.

Yeah he did. Pharaoh did what he wanted to do. God worked with this knowing how he would react. That’s how omniscience works

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

I have not judged anyone. I have just stated what I have seen from you in this chatroom

I see. I have not judged a person's heart. I have determined no one to hell. And even if I had the power to judge someone in an evil, and unrighteous way, I'd judge us all as innocent. I really would. I care about each of us, here. I want us all to receive the Lord's greatest of Blessings.

I'm sorry that your mind filters me as it does. You have misjudged my character, in my opinion.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The bible says we are born again not by the flesh nor by the will of the flesh but by the will of God, so why claim it was our freewill?

My will did not save me. Gods grace did. I just asked God to apply his salvation to
Me. God had to chose to save me or
Not

 

[Nancy]

I hear you, Nancy. I really do. You've said so much, and I wish that we could have routine coffee to talk about these things. I assure you of this . . . there are solid answers for every point you have made. As you know, discussing the most important ideas there are to discuss, it is difficult doing it through this format. Coffee with Sweet Cream is always better! :)

Ah, wouldn't that be great! That's the hard part about fellowshipping on line. Everyone is so far away and, we all have time restrictions pretty much.
Thanks for the reply bro. :)

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Yeah he did. Pharaoh did what he wanted to do. God worked with this knowing how he would react. That’s how omniscience works

I'd re-read the story. If you want to know the Truth . . . that is.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

You would think freewill was written in every chapter and every paragraph of the bible, in fact there are just a few mentions in the OT and these all have regard to freewill offerings because God never demands back any gifts He has given.

You cannot read any book or pamphlet on the subject of science without you soon encounter an affirmation of evolution, it is pure brainwash and it works.

You cannot read hardly any book or pamphlet about christianity without encountering an affirmation of human freewill, it is pure brainwash.

Jesus never spoke of it, nor did any of His apostles.

There is everywhere the choice obey and live or perish.

This is not freewill, if we obey we will be doing God's will, if we die, dead men do not have freewill.

What makes freewill impossible is the penalty for non obedience i.e. death. When the devil said "you will not die you will be like God ..." He not only made God out to be a liar but he tricked them into believing they had freewill.

He still works this deception today.

It is free in a sense of choices that don't have consequences. I would say that the significant choices that result in sin are not free. Since the wages of sin is death, then anything we do that is sinful, has a penalty, a judgment that we will have to face later. IF there was no penalty/judgmnent for anything we did, then we would have free will. When we died, we could just float off to whatever spiritual realm we wanted _ or stick around _ check up on the fam _ go to the Super Bowl for free - without a mask _ at will _ with no hindrance. No one, even our Creator could make us pay for sins or inhibit us to do what we wanted - that would be FREE WILL.
The fact that we die goes against our will to live. Just try willing yourself to live forever, willing yourself to not not ever get sick or old. We can't will ourselves not to die. It is part of the wage of sin, physical death. And spiritual death is also not something one can freely choose. As if an unbelieving person, after death could defy his judgment. "What, I'm not going to Hades to wait for jugment _ which is what _ to get thrown into the Lake of Fire and be destroyed??? No, no, no, I'm not going to do any such thing _ I am free to do what I want _ remember _ you made me with a free will!"
And the Lord says, "No, I did not, I made with a will, but it is not free, you are either a slave to Me or a slave to sin and Satan! BYE BYE."

 

[Eternally Grateful]

According to the Scripture below, it sounds like the Lord's Plan is greater than our own. Judge for yourself:

John 6:37 NKJV - "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out."

You left part out

John 6: 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him would have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
You keep trying to take faith out. You can’t

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I'd re-read the story. If you want to know the Truth . . . that is.

Your truth or scriptural truth?

pharaoh did what he wanted. He fell right into Gods trap and by doing that did things which are written in words
For us all to see

 

[Renniks]

He did not give Big Chief Sitting Bull the same choice

What does that mean? I don't get it.

 

[Renniks]

He did not give Big Chief Sitting Bull the same choice.

You have to explain what virtue, what good thing there is dwelling in you. that is dwelling in your flesh, that enabled you to make the good choice where as others who have as much opportunity and hear the same gospel do not choose. Are you better than they are? is that why you chose to recieve Christ?

The common perception among unbelievers is that christians think they are better than others.

Well if I believe I'm elect and you aren't, I would have a reason to think I'm better than you. But if I believe that God's grace frees my will to choose, I'm just like you. The Bible is clear that humility is rewarded. Humility is not me being better, it's me surrendering because I recognize my unworthiness.

 

[Renniks]

Pharaoh had it extra rough. Not only was he blinded by the Curse of Adam and Eve, but the Lord caused him to not own personal choice over specific decisions. And why?

Romans 9:17 NKJV - "For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."

I don't mind if people judge me, for I am easy to misjudge. But the Scriptures lay it all out for us to see, thus, these folks can judge God's Word as they like. (I'd keep the 20-foot rule. )

Pharaoh rejected God multiple times on his own before God hardened his heart. Yeah there's people who reach the point of no return to God, but they initially do it to themselves. If God uses an unrepentant person who has had the opportunity to repent, so be it. That doesn't negate the person's choices.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

You left part out

John 6: 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him would have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
You keep trying to take faith out. You can’t

I didn't leave anything out. I love what you've added. The more Scripture, the better! :)

Why the harsh attitude? Aren't we of the same Body? Be nice . . . it's easy!

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Your truth or scriptural truth?

pharaoh did what he wanted. He fell right into Gods trap and by doing that did things which are written in words
For us all to see

Okie Doke, soldier. :)

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Well if I believe I'm elect and you aren't, I would have a reason to think I'm better than you. But if I believe that God's grace frees my will to choose, I'm just like you. The Bible is clear that humility is rewarded. Humility is not me being better, it's me surrendering because I recognize my unworthiness.

It's not that simple. The Elect are sometimes the elderly. For example, the man whom I've let to Christ and has had the Curse lifted from his Heart, his conversion began at age 82. Therefore, and based upon that, no True Christians thinks in terms of being better than anyone else. Our goal is not to be better, or be thought of as "better," but our objective is no longer of ourselves and for the Salvation of others. Once a person has been lifted from the Curse of Confusion, the unholy work of Adam and Eve, we consider others as greater than ourselves, for we have been given the Greatest Blessing and Promises available . . . of all time.

If anyone who calls themselves a "Christian," but clearly is trying to belittle you . . . don't be offended by them, for they are confused and lost. Their position is not one of True Christianity but of the Devil.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Pharaoh rejected God multiple times on his own before God hardened his heart. Yeah there's people who reach the point of no return to God, but they initially do it to themselves. If God uses an unrepentant person who has had the opportunity to repent, so be it. That doesn't negate the person's choices.

Scripture is clear that the ability to Repent comes from God. It does not come by human choice, but by the Power of God to cause us to think in a specific way.

2 Timothy 2:24-26 NKJV - "And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and [that] they may come to their senses [and escape] the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to [do] his will."

Notice in the end having been granted the ability to repent, this ability leads to doing the will of the Lord. We are given the ability to do good works. That's what Scripture clearly teaches. They're the Words of the Bible, not my own.

Ephesians 2:10 NIV - "For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

Honestly, I don't know why I continue to post such obvious Scripture.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I didn't leave anything out. I love what you've added. The more Scripture, the better! :)

Why the harsh attitude? Aren't we of the same Body? Be nice . . . it's easy!

Attitude?

lol. You ok if you say so.
Yes, we are brothers, and as such we should be discussing things. Not shoving scripture and saying here this proves me right and mocking another persons belief.
You have been doing this brother you may not think so but you have

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Scripture is clear that the ability to Repent comes from God. It does not come by human choice, but by the Power of God to cause us to think in a specific way.

2 Timothy 2:24-26 NKJV - "And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and [that] they may come to their senses [and escape] the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to [do] his will."

Notice in the end having been granted the ability to repent, this ability leads to doing the will of the Lord. We are given the ability to do good works. That's what Scripture clearly teaches. They're the Words of the Bible, not my own.

Ephesians 2:10 NIV - "For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

Honestly, I don't know why I continue to post such obvious Scripture.

how can I be judged for failing to repent If I have no choice?

it comes from God, amen, but I still have to make a choice

the pharisees saw Jesus raise Lazarus from the dead, they made a choice to still reject him.

as Jesus said, they were unwilling. Willing means choice.

 

[Raccoon1010]

Here is a better way to see it.

In the "time of the Gentiles" there are 2 dominions : as stated by Paul.

1. Dominion of the Law

2. Dominion of Grace

In the life of a person, these exist like this. "under, the".

See that?
So, in both cases, you can be under the dominion. of one of those..
Now notice this carefully...= "the power of sin, is THE Law".""""
See that?
Now notice this. "Christ has redeemed us from the CURSE of the LAW.
And what is the curse?
Its the laws power to empower you to want to sin.
The means that the Law's dominion empowers you to sin. It causes it. It energizes your flesh to overpower your will to resist if you are born again, and if you are not ,then you just sin and enjoy it.

Christ has redeemed you from this curse, if you are born again, BUT= you have to walk in that, in your mind of faith, by Right Believing.

How to do that, if you are born again?

You exist not under the law., is how., as if you exit there, you are "fallen from Grace".

Whats all that mean?

It means that to stop sinning, you stop believing that you can resist sin and win........and, it means that you stop believing that you can lose your salvation.

So, what happens when you get into that MIND of Right Believing?

A.) you stop being under the law, and the CURSE is broken and ended, and you thereby start to exist in the correct mind of Faith, that is Right Believing.

And in that right mind, that is now renewed, you are walking in the Spirit.
Walking in the Spirit, is to exist in the Grace of God, as the renewed mind which is the "mind of Christ".

This is how you walk IN The Light., and when you are there, you are not going to sin, as you are delivered from the curse of the Law that was empowering you to sin and sin and confess and sin again.

You end up here....>"Christ always gives me the VICTORY" as Paul teaches you.

I will consider what you said, but not that I believe it. Thanks for your help though, much appreciated. I found that praying to God alleviated my sin.