How is the Woman saved through childbirth?

[VictoryinJesus]

ear VictoryinJesus,
I am a little confused by your comments, especially this one: But I thought it’s the Chaste Virgin —the unmarried woman(pronounced clean) whose husband is dead (by the body of Christ), presented to Christ, being free to be joined to another, even Him who raised from the dead.

Im sorry I am confusing. When I think of virgin I think of the proof she is a virgin. It reminds me of numbers five when I woman has gone aside after another and lain with another man. If she is found not guilty, she is pronounced clean(not having lain with another), free, under the law of jealousies of her husband when he suspects her of adultery. It is this woman who is clean that conceives, and bears fruit.(unto God)

I’m getting confused myself. I do acknowledge the Marriage analogy. I do see it as Spiritual otherwise 1 Corinthians 7:29 stands out as an odd things to say, “But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remains, that both they that have wives be as though they had none;”

I'll try to explain it again in a shorter and more direct way.

You make sense to me. But it’s all scrambled around because of how you’ve interpreted it, contradicts what I thought it says. That is what confuses me. Not your words. For example …thinking you have the puzzle pieces in the right order where the picture is becoming clear. Then someone rearranges the pieces and you question the picture that was taking shape because now all the pieces are in different places. Does that make sense? point is no matter how many times you come back to say let me make it clearer. It is not the clarity that doesn’t make sense, it’s things like (still) the early and latter rain that I still haven’t seen where it seems central to how you see things. Because then the early and latter rain leads to why this virgin is this, and why this virgin is that…because of the early and latter rain. Every thing you say based off if He has come the first time or retuned the second time unto salvation.

1Cor 7:34 There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

I’ll try again. In the above I see the married woman cares for the things of the world, how she must please her husband.
^she is those Paul spoke to in Romans 7 brothers, by the body of Christ you are free to marry another, even Him who raised from the dead. To serve in “newness of Spirit”

When I think of “newness of Spirit” I think of “a chaste Virgin” in “newness” she is free-pronounced clean— and can marry another, even Him who raised from the dead. “If her husband be dead” which “by the body of Christ” …Her husband is dead. She is free from being bond to the law of her husband…

I see the married woman as trying to please that law of her husband and failing, she cares for the things of the world and how she must please her husband. It does nothing.

It’s the virgin —-free by the body of Christ who has been made free from the law of her husband to serve in “newness of Spirit” …when I think of virgin I think of an inspection of whether she is a virgin…she is pronounced “clean” and presented to Christ. What I hear you say is the married in the above does well? I don’t think so, but it’s the married woman please the world, still being in bondage, caring for the things of the world and how she must please what has not been buried and crucified by the body of Christ.

The virgin in newness of Spirit, also called “the unmarried” : The unmarried woman cares for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit. Paul spoke of only having Timothy to send to them, only Timothy naturally cared for their state, all other men cares not for things of the Lord, but went after their own things.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The virgin in newness of Spirit, also called “the unmarried” : The unmarried woman cares for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit. Paul spoke of only having Timothy to send to them, only Timothy naturally cared for their state, all other men cares not for things of the Lord, but went after their own things.

Maybe this will help. In the above I see:

The married woman who cares for the things of the world and how she must please her husband is as the babe… like the weak brother who set with Paul, the weak brother too afraid to eat.
—the virgin being the one who cares for the things of the Lord, serving in Newness of Spirit—it is the virgin pronounced clean —given to Christ.

The married woman caring for the the things of the world and how she must please her husband is double minded and unstable in all her ways. She is not married to Christ, but gone aside after another. Being in the fear of bondage.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

how is the woman saved through childbearing?

There’s the question: how is the woman saved through childbearing?

My answer is: the woman is saved through childbearing unto God by the body of Christ.

Another question is who is the woman saved through childbearing?

Reconciled by His death
Saved by His life

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

2 Corinthians 4:10-12 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. [11] For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. [12] So then death works in us, but (bearing Fruit) life(Christ) in you. (You can’t fake this, for its God who gives the increase.)

Being reconciled by His death….much more being saved by (bearing fruit, childbearing unto God) Life in you.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Im sorry I am confusing. When I think of virgin I think of the proof she is a virgin. It reminds me of numbers five when I woman has gone aside after another and lain with another man. If she is found not guilty, she is pronounced clean(not having lain with another), free, under the law of jealousies of her husband when he suspects her of adultery. It is this woman who is clean that conceives, and bears fruit.(unto God)

I’m getting confused myself. I do acknowledge the Marriage analogy. I do see it as Spiritual otherwise 1 Corinthians 7:29 stands out as an odd things to say, “But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remains, that both they that have wives be as though they had none;”

You make sense to me. But it’s all scrambled around because of how you’ve interpreted it, contradicts what I thought it says. That is what confuses me. Not your words. For example …thinking you have the puzzle pieces in the right order where the picture is becoming clear. Then someone rearranges the pieces and you question the picture that was taking shape because now all the pieces are in different places. Does that make sense? point is no matter how many times you come back to say let me make it clearer. It is not the clarity that doesn’t make sense, it’s things like (still) the early and latter rain that I still haven’t seen where it seems central to how you see things. Because then the early and latter rain leads to why this virgin is this, and why this virgin is that…because of the early and latter rain. Every thing you say based off if He has come the first time or retuned the second time unto salvation.

I’ll try again. In the above I see the married woman cares for the things of the world, how she must please her husband.
^she is those Paul spoke to in Romans 7 that by the body of Christ you are free to marry another, even Him who raised from the dead. To serve in “newness of Spirit”

When I think of “newness of Spirit” I think of “a chaste Virgin” in “newness” she is free-pronounced clean— and can marry another, even Him who raised from the dead. “If her husband be dead” which “by the body of Christ” …Her husband is dead. She is free from being bond to the law of her husband…

See…I see the married as trying to please that law of her husband and failing, she cares for the things of the world and how she must please her husband. It does nothing.

It’s the virgin —-free by the body of Christ who has been made free from the law of her husband to serve in “newness” …when I think of virgin I think of an inspection of whether she is a virgin…she is pronounced “clean” and presented to Christ. What I hear you says if is the married in the above does well. I don’t think so I’m still being in bondage, caring for the things of the world and how she must please what has not been buried and crucified by the body of Christ.

The virgin in newness of Spirit, also called “the unmarried” : The unmarried woman cares for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit. Paul spoke of only having Timothy to send to them, only Timothy naturally cared for their state, all other men cares not for things of the Lord, but went after their own things.

Dear VictoryinJesus,
Thanks for your good response.

You said:
I’ll try again. In the above I see the married woman cares for the things of the world, how she must please her husband.
^she is those Paul spoke to in Romans 7 that by the body of Christ you are free to marry another, even Him who raised from the dead. To serve in “newness of Spirit”.

What you said above is correct but I don't think you understand what you have stated.

When a person sins and follows the ways of Satan, they are married to him and will do what pleases him. This is the state of all the unbelieving world.

Now consider how Paul addresses his letter to the Romans. Paul addresses many of his letters to the churches in this same fashion.

Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

This verse applies to it:

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Many people are called to be saints but only a few of them will actually become saints. For the "many" who are only called to be saints (the foolish virgins), they will only be given the Early Rain of the Spirit. They will not be given the extra flask of oil (Latter Rain) that the wise virgins will be given so that the Bridegroom can spiritually appear to them.

This is a key point as it applies to 1Cor 7:34: The people who are "called to be saints" are now no longer married to Satan but have become chaste virgins because they have received the Early Rain of the Spirit. With the Spirit (even just a small amount like the Early Rain), a person is "called to be a saint" and is now engaged to Christ. They are NOT converted yet nor are they married to Christ yet. Scripture also calls them "babes" who can only draw milk (Christ and Him crucified). When Christ comes back with the Latter Rain of the Spirit to one of the "few" who are actually chosen to be a saint, the "called to be a saint" virgin will have their elect status confirmed. They will then be converted and become a saint. This is when a "babe" will withdraw from the breasts and become a child of God who is ready to start eating strong meat so that they can grow to maturity. After a believer is converted, nothing can take their salvation away. In this converted state, the virgin is now married to Christ and has become His bride.

Another key point: After a person is given the (correction) EARLY Rain of the Spirit and becomes a virgin, they will "fall away" because of Satan's deceptions (just like Adam and Eve did). This is the apostasy of the church that Paul knew was coming after his death (Acts 20:29-31). No virgin (wise or foolish) can avoid becoming apostate because all virgins remain carnally minded and spiritually blind. This is a hard truth for most virgins to accept. In fact, it is impossible for them to accept unless Christ has given them the Latter Rain of the Spirit which has healed their spiritual blindness. After the virgin can "see" spiritually, they will realize that they have been under Satan deceptions all along.

These scriptures apply:

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

2Thes 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

After a virgin is given the Latter Rain, they will see the Abomination of Desolation that previously occurred within themselves. When they "see" that they have been deceived, judgment will then fall and remove & destroy the spirit of anti-Christ from within them. This is how Christ converts His bride so that she will walk by Spirit.

Since you are having trouble with the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirt concept, take a look at these verses - maybe they will help you see more clearly.

Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he (Christ) shall come unto us as the RAIN, as the latter and former (Early) RAIN unto the earth.

Psa 68:9 Thou, O God, didst send a plentiful RAIN (Latter Rain), whereby thou didst confirm thine inheritance (elect status), when it was weary (in an apostate condition).

Job 37:6 For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain (Early Rain), and to the great rain (Latter Rain) of his strength.

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? (the day of salvation for the Elect virgin) I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder and RAIN (Latter Rain); that ye may perceive and see that your wickedness is great (have become "worse than the first"/a man of sin), which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.

Jer 3:3 Therefore the showers (Latter Rain) have been withholden, and there hath been no Latter Rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed (this is talking about the apostate church).

Last point: The time of Elijah's 3 1/2 years of drought is a "type" for the time a chosen virgin spends in between receiving the Early and Latter Rains. It is also when the last 3 1/2 years of Daniels's Seventy Weeks prophecy occurs for a chosen virgin. It is a time of "great tribulation" (Mat 24:21) because the person has been made "worse than the first" and has the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ.

I hope this helps.

Joe

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Paul is drawing on Genesis 3 and laying a foundation on how the Women should behave in the House of God - if you don't understand the context simply ask!

Wrong. It is about what will happen at childbirth to a godly woman. That is what it says in plain English and Greek.

But they did believe!

Not on the name of Jesus nor His death and physical resurrection. that was unknown.

Well, lets receive that cool refreshing taste of a cucumber!

You have been

 

[Ronald Nolette]

But for notwithstanding, A.V. through the child-bearing for in childbearing, A.V. love for charity, A.V. sanctification for holiness, A.V. She shall be saved; i.e. the woman generically.

The transition from the personal Eve to the generic woman is further marked by the transition from the singular to the plural, “if they continue,” etc. The natural and simple explanation of the passage is that the special temporal punishment pronounced against the woman, immediately after her sin, “In sorrow shalt thou bring forth children” (Gen. 3:16)—(to which St. Paul here evidently alludes)—and endured by all women ever since, was a set-off, so to speak, to the special guilt of Eve in yielding to the guile of the serpent; so that now the woman might attain salvation as well as the man (although she was not suffered to teach) if she continued in faith and charity

H. D. M. Spence-Jones, ed. 1 Timothy, The Pulpit Commentary (London; New York: Funk & Wagnalls Company, 1909), 36.

@Ronald Nolette try entering the Context of the section and this will lead you to the foundation principles on Paul's mind.

F2F

Well Spence Jones is offering his opinion, not Scripture!

The hodgepodge of your first sentence is irrelevant.

Here is PAULS FULL CONTEXT ON WOMAN TO TIMOTHY AND THE CHURCH HERE:

9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Paul is reminding of the curse in child bearing by implication, but he concludes with the "notwithstanding" which is simply a "but" a woman will be kept safe in childbearing. This is all it says. anything else is allegorical reading into the passage something not there.

Lets look at the context:

1. How a woman should appear
2. Her place in learning
3.Prohibition on teaching men
4. Why the prohibition
5. Her delieverance in childbearing if she lives a godly life.

No more no less.

If you say it means something other than written- please show why.

 

[Wrangler]

Paul is drawing on Genesis 3 and laying a foundation on how the Women should behave in the House of God - if you don't understand the context simply ask!

Eisegesis. Gen 3. Numbers 5. Proverbs 31. 1 Tim 2. Not one contiguous theme but various guides.

The natural and simple explanation of the passage is that the special temporal punishment pronounced against the woman, immediately after her sin, “In sorrow shalt thou bring forth children” (Gen. 3:16)—(to which St. Paul here evidently alludes)—and endured by all women ever since, was a set-off, so to speak, to the special guilt of Eve in yielding to the guile of the serpent; so that now the woman might attain salvation as well as the man (although she was not suffered to teach) if she continued in faith and charity

More Eisegesis.

@Wrangler laughs when I say this but men are included in the Proverbs 31, as they are included in the woman saved by childbearing (through the body of Christ) to bring forth Fruit unto God.

Well Spence Jones is offering his opinion, not Scripture!

Agreed.

Wrong. It is about what will happen at childbirth to a godly woman. That is what it says in plain English and Greek.

Not on the name of Jesus nor His death and physical resurrection. that was unknown.

Agreed. It is remarkable what people who embrace mysticism can extrapolate beyond what the text allows.

It reminds me of academic papers where I was asked to write an essay from one quote to something entirely disconnected from it as a test of creativity. Keep in mind, one’s capacity for creativity does not dictate reality. Example: Explain how “Sometimes you feel like a nut” and “York, peppermint patty” ads can be used to trace the development of civilization. The premise upon which the analysis is to be founded is false. It is LOL.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

In this converted state, the virgin is now married to Christ and has become His bride.

Random thoughts. Bride or wife? Doesn’t there have to be a consumption for there to be children? His seed remains?

Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he (Christ) shall come unto us as the RAIN, as the latter and former (Early) RAIN unto the earth.

This is only questions. Former and latter rain…I think of that former conversation we all have had in the world, In the lust of the flesh. Where it says God’s perfection is
Matthew 5:45 That you may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

Again former rain you translated as “early” rain…to me the former rain is on the unjust(while they have their conversation in the world), the latter rain on the just(their conversation being in Christ?

s. It is also when the last 3 1/2 years of Daniels's Seventy Weeks prophecy occurs for a chosen virgin. It is a time of "great tribulation" (Mat 24:21) because the person has been made "worse than the first" and has the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ.

A little season?
Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

1 Peter 1:5-7 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. [6] Wherein you greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, you are in heaviness through manifold temptations: [7] That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Philemon 1:15-16 For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that you should receive him for ever; [16] Not now as a servant, but above a servant, a brother beloved, specially to me, but how much more unto thee, both in the flesh, and in the Lord?


Matthew 16:2-3 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, you say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. [3] And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O you hypocrites, you can discern the face of the sky; but can you not discern the signs of the times?


Point is …I see a departing for a season …hopefully… if need be…in heaviness…to return not now as a servant, but above a servant, a brother beloved.

 

[Grailhunter]

A Side note for you ladies and gentlemen….
The topic of the biblical definition of virgin as in the details thereof is difficult to nail down because the scriptures support more than one definition. As in what is a virgin and how to confirm it? So the discussion is kind of like nailing Jell-o to the wall.

The other thing, it is a common belief that a virgin in someway can serve the Lord better than someone that is not a virgin or celibate or someone that is married. It may sound good on paper and historically some people have insisted on it, Jewish, Christian, and Pagan. It is one of the reasons that some people insist on Miriam being a virgin after she conceived and after she delivered Christ and for her whole life, is because virginity is linked to purity and holiness, which could not be more wrong. For one thing we would have to define purity.

The Apostle Peter was married and served the Lord very well.

So as far as virgins or those being celibate meaning they can serve the Lord better? Again this is false. Extended virginity or celibacy is unnatural....As in how God made us and the plan of God. Extended virginity or celibacy will cause a state of hyper arousal…to the point that it will distract the mind and focus from anything else.

For proof….look at Catholic Priests….and the trouble it has caused that Church. The Catholic Church’s reputation has been drug through the mud….actually the sewer because of their fixation on celibacy. The concept of Horny Priests serving the Lord better is false. That is why neither the Jewish or Protestant religions require it.

Historically it is an “ism” as in crazy things that religions and society comes up with that is wrong and harmful.

 

[face2face]

@Ronald Nolette @Wrangler just so I'm reading you right and not jumping to conclusions and I'll use Ronalds 1-5 points to show clarity.

1. How a woman should appear
2. Her place in learning
3. Prohibition on teaching men
4. Why the prohibition
5. Her deliverance in childbearing if she lives a godly life.

You believe Paul is saying that if a woman is godly this will guarantee her protection in childbirth? So every godly women who has died is deemed ungodly?

You have me in a spin here because the whole section is all about how a Women should behave in the house of God and you both have him finishing with giving birth to children?

Either I'm missing something or you both cannot see the extremely clear connection to Genesis 3

If I have got you right do you actually believe God protects a women from birth complications only if she is godly?

What of Rachel?

F2F

 

[face2face]

Lets look at the context:

1. How a woman should appear
2. Her place in learning
3.Prohibition on teaching men
4. Why the prohibition
5. Her delieverance in childbearing if she lives a godly life.

You have given the context in points 1-4...you need to continue this into point 5 and connect with Pauls Gen 3 thinking.

This is not difficult Ronald.

In all honesty this is the first time I have ever seen someone force the interpratation of God's protection upon godly women in child birth.

What's also interesting is how you leave the context Ronald...you prove correct context only to leave it in point 5 - how so?

You didn't answer my question "do you believe Rachel is ungodly?"

It's Pauls teaching on how Women are saved through practicing rigtheousness in their home and church.

So I want younger women to marry, raise children, and manage a household, in order to give the adversary (sins flesh) no opportunity to vilify us 1 Ti 5:13–14.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Eisegesis. Gen 3. Numbers 5. Proverbs 31. 1 Tim 2. Not one contiguous theme but various guides.

Correct

More Eisegesis.

Okay

Agreed. It is remarkable what people who embrace mysticism can extrapolate beyond what the text allows.

Weird comment Wrangler as you just stated above Pauls thinking is in all those passages

It reminds me of academic papers where I was asked to write an essay from one quote to something entirely disconnected from it as a test of creativity. Keep in mind, one’s capacity for creativity does not dictate reality. Example: Explain how “Sometimes you feel like a nut” and “York, peppermint patty” ads can be used to trace the development of civilization. The premise upon which the analysis is to be founded is false. It is LOL.

It's a rather shallow approach don't you think Wrangler? What you're in affect saying is the Word of God should only be understood literally with a surface reading. Let's cap the Spirit and not follow the crumbs of wisdom!

Sorrow upon sorrow is where Paul's mind is after the sin in the Garden and how women are saved through having children is not about the physical act but the spiritual import of teaching a child in the way it should go.

F2F

 

[ScottA]

1 Timothy 2:11-15 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. [12] I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. [13] For Adam was formed first, then Eve; [14] and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. [15] Yet she will be saved through childbearing-if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

how is the woman saved through childbearing?

Paul is not saying that bearing children means salvation for women.

The passage is a real life parable that women can participate in by example. That is what it is, it is an example. Understand that much of the life experiences of former generations was given by God to those who follow, that they/we might learn and understand. But a flesh example is not a spiritual gain. "The flesh profits nothing" (John 6:63). Thus, as a parable type example, the fleshly experience of childbirth is only an object of the lesson. As in all parables, the object is never the actual subject.

The life parable example then, refers rather to the matter in spiritual terms rather than fleshly or worldly terms. Meaning, that in translation from physical to spiritual, salvation comes rather by being born of God, and not of women. Which of course includes women, and is to be understood as honoring to women, for God has entrusted them with such a great example pointing to salvation.

Understanding what God has done, and the honor bestowed upon women, a mother would do well to explain to her children that they were born of her, but God is greater and willing that all children be born again of His spirit also.

 

[face2face]

It was written in the recollection of the sentence which is coupled in Gen. 3. with the story of the fall. God had changed the curse into a blessing for her as well as for Adam, and made the penalty of sin a means of grace. She shall be saved, σωθήσεται. A share in the salvation of Christ is not withheld from her, although she has no part in public teaching. Yet she can only gain the personal enjoyment of this grace when she remains in her allotted calling. Through child-bearing, διὰ τῆς τεκνογονίας, proceeds the Apostle; and this expression has often been a stumbling-block. “Do you think it was Paul’s opinion, at the time he wrote 1 Cor. 7., that the salvation of the female sex depends on child-bearing?” asks Schleiermacher, when he opposes the genuineness of the Pastoral Epistles. The reply must be undoubtedly in the negative; but it should be added, that no reasonable man, apostle or not apostle, would take this proposition unconditionally; since, in that case, the greatest number of children would best entitle the mother to salvation. We are simply to suppose that the Apostle has in view Christian women only, for whom the question is, how they, who already believe in Christ, should personally gain the salvation they seek. It is, then, quite unnecessary to interpret the διά as meaning the outward mode of the σωθήσεται; still less to give it the sense of “notwithstanding” (Flatt); it denotes simply a condition in which the woman becomes partaker of such blessing. On this use of the preposition, see Winer, p. 339, who gives various examples. The Apostle would say: Far be the thought that the true fulfilment of the duties of a mother, as each might perhaps fear, can hinder the salvation of woman; on the contrary, she will then obtain it, when she remains in her allotted sphere of home (comp. chap. 5:14). Τεκνογονία does not mean merely the munus puerperæ in the strict sense of the word, but includes the Christian nurture and training of children. The notion that γυνή refers to Eve alone, or to Mary, the mother of the Lord, needs no serious refutation. The Apostle speaks of the Christian wife in general, and therefore can directly use the plural for the singular, when he adds, ἐὰν μείνωσιν. That this last clause does not refer to both men and women (Heydenreich), nor to the children (Chrysostom, Schleiermacher, Leo, Mack), is quite obvious. The last would, on account of the preceding τεκνογονία, be grammatically possible; but it is not probable, since the salvation of the woman would then be made dependent on the continuance of her children in fellowship with Christ. Calvin justly denied this view, when he wrote: “Atqui unica vox est apud Paulum τεκνογονία. Proinde ad mulieres referri, necessarium est ἐὰν μείνωσιν, κ.τ.λ. Quod autem plurale verbum est, nomen vero singulars, nihil habet incommodi. Si quidem nomen indefinitum, ubi scilicet de omnibus communis est sermo, vim collectivi habet, ideoque mutationem numeri facile patitur. Porro ne totammulierum virtutem in conjugalibus officiis includeret, continuo post etiam majores adjicit virtutes, quibus pias mulieres excellere convenit, ut a profanis differant. Imo tunc demum generatio gratum est Deo obsequium, quum ex fide et caritate procedit.” This last must especially be held in view. The slightest trace of singularity vanishes, when we see what the Apostle requires of women in their Christian life. They must endure even to the end, if they will be saved (Matt. 24:13). Πίστις, ἀγάπη, ἁγιασμός, are for them the chief aim, as well as for every man. By the connection of these words with σωφροσύνη, modestia, the exhortation again returns to its starting point, the subordinate rank of woman.

John Peter Lange, Philip Schaff, and J. J. van Oosterzee, trans. E. A. Washburn and E. Harwood (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2008), 34–35.

 

[face2face]

I've long held my own views on that section, so I thank Ronald & Wrangler for raising a literal forced reading of it, but I'm convinced all the commentators I've read and I don't like referring to them as they do get a lot wrong, however on this occasion I perceive the truth and intent of Pauls words is correct. Paul is looking at the whole of a believers life, both in family and in church, and not just the act of merely having babies.

F2F

 

[FaithWillDo]

Random thoughts. Bride or wife? Doesn’t there have to be a consumption for there to be children? His seed remains?

This is only questions. Former and latter rain…I think of that former conversation we all have had in the world, In the lust of the flesh. Where it says God’s perfection is
Matthew 5:45 That you may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

Again former rain you translated as “early” rain…to me the former rain is on the unjust(while they have their conversation in the world), the latter rain on the just(their conversation being in Christ?


A little season?
Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

1 Peter 1:5-7 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. [6] Wherein you greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, you are in heaviness through manifold temptations: [7] That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Philemon 1:15-16 For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that you should receive him for ever; [16] Not now as a servant, but above a servant, a brother beloved, specially to me, but how much more unto thee, both in the flesh, and in the Lord?


Matthew 16:2-3 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, you say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. [3] And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O you hypocrites, you can discern the face of the sky; but can you not discern the signs of the times?


Point is …I see a departing for a season …hopefully… if need be…in heaviness…to return not now as a servant, but above a servant, a brother beloved.

Dear VictoryinJesus,
You said:
Random thoughts. Bride or wife? Doesn’t there have to be a consumption for there to be children? His seed remains?

Being a bride or wife is the same thing. However, the marriage analogy is separate from the birthing analogy. You should not try to combine them - it won't work.

The birthing analogy consists of Satan and the bondwoman (man's carnal spirit) who produces children of the devil AND Christ and the freewoman (the Holy Spirit) who produces the children of God.

Paul teaches the birthing analogy in Gal 4:21-31. The story of Abraham and Hagar is a "type" for birthing the children of the devil and Abraham and Sarah is a type for birthing the children of God.

Paul is also referencing the birthing analogy here:

1Thes 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The Day of the Lord (judgment) immediately follows when an Elect believer has just received the Latter Rain of the Spirit and it completes the conversion process. During this process, Christ and the Freewoman birth a new child of God. This is when a person is said to be "born again". The judgment of the Day of the Lord destroys the child of the devil who was birthed when the person first sinned.

1John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

You said:
Again former rain you translated as “early” rain…to me the former rain is on the unjust(while they have their conversation in the world), the latter rain on the just(their conversation being in Christ?

Yes, the Early Rain falls on an unbeliever who is "unjust". The Latter Rain can fall on the "just" as it did with the early Jewish Elect. But since the apostasy of the church, the Latter Rain now falls on the "unjust" because the believer has fallen away from faith (become unchaste).

You said:
Point is …I see a departing for a season …hopefully… if need be…in heaviness…to return not now as a servant, but above a servant, a brother beloved.

Here are your verses:

Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The phrase "that should be killed as they were" is referring back to the fourth seal when the spirit of anti-Christ spiritually killed the believer. When the white robes are given to them in the fifth seal it is because they have now received the Latter Rain and been restored. The sixth seal is when judgment falls on them.

1 Peter 1:5-7 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. [6] Wherein you greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, you are in heaviness through manifold temptations: [7] That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Verse five shows that the believers who Peter is writing to are virgins/babes who are waiting for Christ to return with the Latter Rain and salvation. The "last time" means the same as "the end" in Mat 24:14 when the Elect believer is going to be converted. The "season" they are enduring with the heaviness of many temptations is because they are still carnally minded and unconverted. But unlike it is today, these virgins/babes are not apostate but are still chaste virgins. The spirit of anti-Christ had not devoured the churches when Peter wrote his letters. Please keep that in mind when you read his letters and all the other NT letters because the virgins/babes were remaining faithful at that time (for the most part). As for the "appearing of Jesus Christ", it will occur for each of them (if they are Elect) after they are given the Latter Rain and have had their spiritual blindness healed. With their blindness healed, Christ will spiritually appear to each of them. The second coming of Christ is an individual spiritual event that reoccurs for each of the Elect throughout this age.

Philemon 1:15-16 For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that you should receive him for ever; [16] Not now as a servant, but above a servant, a brother beloved, specially to me, but how much more unto thee, both in the flesh, and in the Lord?

I believe the "season" is only referring the time when Onesimus (a slave) was away helping Paul in the ministry. Paul has now sent Onesimus back to his owners who are also believers. Paul hopes the owners will receive him back not as a slave but has a brother who is a servant to the Lord. Paul's comments do not have anything to do with the time a believer spends between the Early and Latter Rains.

Matthew 16:2-3 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, you say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. [3] And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O you hypocrites, you can discern the face of the sky; but can you not discern the signs of the times?

The "signs of the times" is referring the the things in the OT that prophesied Jesus' physical coming to be sacrificed at the cross. The Pharisees were blind to those signs. Those signs are not the same signs that Christ mentions in Mat 24:33 which will proceed His second coming to a virgin/babe with the Latter Rain & judgment.

Joe

 

[face2face]

Paul is not saying that bearing children means salvation for women.

Agree, because the plight of all faithful women is to be saved through the care and nurture of all in the Body of Christ, regardless of whether they have babies, or not. An auntie without children has the responsibility to practice obedience and righteousness toward all God's children. Sorrow upon sorrow is behind Pauls words from Genesis 3 and how God intended a woman to behave in the house of God, is at the heart of this encouragement. Also note it cannot merely be about childbirth, as Paul qualifies with "if" she continues in faith and love and holiness with self-control. 1 Ti 2:15.

Only God knows "if" the woman will do these things there entire life and not a one time event in childbirth.

If the mother died in childbirth is one to conclude God could see they would be unfaithful the remainder of their lives?

Ridiculous.

F2F

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Paul is not saying that bearing children means salvation for women.

The passage is a real life parable that women can participate in by example. That is what it is, it is an example. Understand that much of the life experiences of former generations was given by God to those who follow, that they/we might learn and understand. But a flesh example is not a spiritual gain. "The flesh profits nothing" (John 6:63). Thus, as a parable type example, the fleshly experience of childbirth is only an object of the lesson. As in all parables, the object is never the actual subject.

The life parable example then, refers rather to the matter in spiritual terms rather than fleshly or worldly terms. Meaning, that in translation from physical to spiritual, salvation comes rather by being born of God, and not of women. Which of course includes women, and is to be understood as honoring to women, for God has entrusted them with such a great example pointing to salvation.

Understanding what God has done, and the honor bestowed upon women, a mother would do well to explain to her children that they were born of her, but God is greater and willing that all children be born again of His spirit also.

I like how you pointed at the new birth from above. I still think it’s New Jerusalem above which I don’t think makes you wrong, since she is is not a literal woman. Love “salvation comes rather by being born of God, and not of women.” I can’t argue that.

 

[Wrangler]

You believe Paul is saying that if a woman is godly this will guarantee her protection in childbirth? So every godly women who has died is deemed ungodly?

You have me in a spin here because the whole section is all about how a Women should behave in the house of God and you both have him finishing with giving birth to children?

Either I'm missing something or you both cannot see the extremely clear connection to Genesis 3

@face2face, this post is so convoluted, which is a departure from your normally well thought out posts. I truly cannot grasp how you are connecting what you are connecting in any of the points you made. This is most obvious in your claim what the whole section is about (shown in red) compared to the narrow question of the OP of how THE Woman is saved through childbirth as stated in Numbers 5 regarding testing here and now whether a wife has been unfaithful (as opposed to the afterlife).

Again, I re-iterate rejecting Numbers 5 as being part of a consistent, integrated theme to the other Bible verses quoted. As the basis of my rejection, I offer proper use of language. Specifically, the definite article, "THE." Not sure how more extremely clear the language could be that Numbers 5 is talking about a specific woman (being tested for infidelity) and not womenkind, in general, being saved for eternity. Some discernment is needed to distinguish:

1. Temporal punishment here on Earth for particular kind of sin BEFORE Jesus' return.
2. Eternal consequences for the summation of a life lived in sin - or not - AFTER Jesus' return in the afterlife on Judgment Day.

Perhaps the confusion is the fact that the punishment in Case 1 is not imposed by man. Both punishments are divinely imposed. Yet, this does not change the basic fact that the 2 case scenarios above are independent. For instance, a woman could be simultaneously guilty of adultery AND saved on Judgement Day. Both of these facts are eternal in nature. That is, the fact of history in case 1 is not altered because of the grace extended on Judgement Day.

Hope this helps!

 

[FaithWillDo]

Random thoughts. Bride or wife? Doesn’t there have to be a consumption for there to be children? His seed remains?

This is only questions. Former and latter rain…I think of that former conversation we all have had in the world, In the lust of the flesh. Where it says God’s perfection is
Matthew 5:45 That you may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

Again former rain you translated as “early” rain…to me the former rain is on the unjust(while they have their conversation in the world), the latter rain on the just(their conversation being in Christ?


A little season?
Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

1 Peter 1:5-7 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. [6] Wherein you greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, you are in heaviness through manifold temptations: [7] That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Philemon 1:15-16 For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that you should receive him for ever; [16] Not now as a servant, but above a servant, a brother beloved, specially to me, but how much more unto thee, both in the flesh, and in the Lord?


Matthew 16:2-3 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, you say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. [3] And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O you hypocrites, you can discern the face of the sky; but can you not discern the signs of the times?


Point is …I see a departing for a season …hopefully… if need be…in heaviness…to return not now as a servant, but above a servant, a brother beloved.

Dear VictoryinJesus,
To help prevent further confusion, I thought it best to make another post on a third analogy used in scripture. It is the "maturing" analogy.

This analogy can easily be confused with the birthing analogy because it uses the terms "babe", child, and perfect man".

Here is the maturing analogy:

After a person receives the Early Rain of the Spirit, they are at the maturity level of a "babe". When the "babe" is given the Latter Rain and is converted, they withdraw from the breasts and become like a "little child".

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

After a believer has been converted and has become a little child, Christ will continue maturing the believer by feeding them his truth of bread, strong meat and New Wine. This nourishment is coupled with Christ's chastisement. This maturing process will take the little child to adulthood until they become a perfect man of full age.

John the Baptist is a "type" for the Old Man (carnal mind/head). John made this statement below and it relates to the maturing analogy:

John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

The scriptures below also relate to the maturing analogy:

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more babes, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

James 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Psa 37:37 Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace.

I wanted to make some additional comments on the birthing analogy.

The "woman" used in this analogy represents the either the Old Covenant of Law (bondwoman) or the New Covenant of Grace through Faith (freewoman).

The bondwoman answers to earthly Jerusalem (man's carnal spirit) and the freewoman answers to the Jerusalem from above (Holy Spirit).

It is through the bondwoman (the Law) that Satan produces a child of the Devil when he causes their carnal spirit to sin.

It is through the freewoman (faith) that Christ produces a child of God when He gives them a new spirit which is governed by the Holy Spirit.

It is very important to keep the analogies used in scripture separate from each other and to identify which analogy is being used in the verses that you are studying. If you do this, the analogies will make more sense.

Joe