How did the Trinity doctrine develop in the early church?

[Jack]

Got your attention now, did I?

The first step is to acknowledge that you have a problem.

Jesus is God. That's not my problem.

 

[Lambano]

Jesus is God. That's not my problem.

Jack, do you recognize this verse?

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor IDOLATORS, nor adulterers, nor μαλακοὶ, nor ἀρσενοκοῖται, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

If you guess wrong, you're an idolator and you get a spot in the fire next to a guy named Bruce who's wearing a studded sleeveless leather vest and a nose ring. Choose wisely.

 

[Lambano]

I can play both sides of this argument.

 

[Jack]

Jack, do you recognize this verse?

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor IDOLATORS, nor adulterers, nor μαλακοὶ, nor ἀρσενοκοῖται, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

If you guess wrong, you're an idolator and you get a spot in the fire next to the arsenokoitai. Choose wisely.

And Jesus is still God! Col 1 By Jesus all things were created!

 

[Lambano]

If you look at the list you provided, which I've numbered for clarity

Thank you; I added them to my original post for the benefit of others.

 

[face2face]

That might work for point 5 (though Christ's human contribution was only as a propitiatory sacrifice), but not point 4. The claim is that Christ existed before Creation (before sin existed), and Christ was intimately involved in Creation.

Let me know what text you think this is coming from and i'm happy to look at it with you.

F2F

 

[Lambano]

Let me know what text you think this is coming from and i'm happy to look at it with you.

F2F

See point 4. I put the scriptural references in there for everybody's convenience.

The propitiatory sacrifice bit is from 1 John 2:2 and Romans 3:25-26.

 

[face2face]

See point 4. I put the scriptural references in there for everybody's convenience.

Colossians 1:15,16

Well lets get the JW point done and dusted first!

The Messianic prophecy in Psalm 89:27 refutes the Jehovah's Witness claim that "Jehovah" created His Son as His first act of creation. The verse "I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth" clearly shows that Christ was not the firstborn before the creation narrative in Genesis 1 and 2. Rather, Christ was destined to be made the firstborn long after the Psalm was written. The Messianic nature of this passage is confirmed by comparing it with 2 Samuel 7:14, Hebrews 1:5, and Psalm 89:35-37, as well as Psalm 72:1-8.

 

[face2face]

See point 4. I put the scriptural references in there for everybody's convenience.

The propitiatory sacrifice bit is from 1 John 2:2 and Romans 3:25-26.

"The firstborn of all creation" is clarified in verse 18 as "the firstborn from the dead." Often, a statement that appears absolute is actually limited in its application. Consider the following examples where "all" is clearly meant in a restricted sense:

• ". . . there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed." (Luke 2:1). Here, "all" refers to the Roman world, not the regions of South, Central, or North America.
• "All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers . . ." (John 10:8). In this case, "all" does not include John the Baptist and other prophets.

Similarly, in Genesis 3:20, "all living" does not refer to the animals, and in Genesis 6:13, "all flesh" does not include Noah and the creatures saved in the ark.

The "creation" of which Christ is the firstborn refers to the creation of new men and women, not the creation of light, dry land, and other elements of Genesis. The terms "create" and "creation" are used in the New Testament to describe Christ's work in a regenerative sense. Consider the following:

• "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Eph. 2:10, cf. 4:23-24).
• ". . . for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace." (Eph. 2:15).

See also Col. 3:9-10 (R.S.V.), Gal. 6:15, James 1:18, and 2 Cor. 5:17.

 

[face2face]

See point 4. I put the scriptural references in there for everybody's convenience.

The propitiatory sacrifice bit is from 1 John 2:2 and Romans 3:25-26.

The inspired Apostle, drawing on the Old Testament understanding of the firstborn, attributes to Christ His position, rank, and role in God's divine plan. Here is a summary of this background:

• The firstborn succeeded his father as the head of the family (2 Chron. 21:2-3).
• He received a double portion of the inheritance (Deut. 21:17).
• A younger son could be elevated to the position of firstborn if the eldest was deemed unworthy (1 Chron. 5:1).

Adam lost this privilege due to his personal unworthiness, but the last Adam, Christ, became perfect through the things He suffered and inherited the "double portion." He became the "firstfruits of them that slept" and "the firstborn among many brethren," serving as "the head of the body, the church... that in all things He might have the preeminence" (Col. 1:18; 1 Cor. 15:20; Rom. 8:29).

F2F

 

[face2face]

Colossians 1, rather than supporting the doctrine of the Trinity, actually stands in opposition to it. Consider the following points:

• If Christ is the "image of the invisible God" (Col. 1:15), He is a likeness or representation, not the original.
• Christ is described as the "firstborn of every creature" (Col. 1:15). The term "firstborn" implies a beginning, meaning Christ cannot be the "Eternal" Son of God as taught by Trinitarians.

 

[face2face]

"Who is the image of the invisible God"

clearly alludes to Genesis 1:26, where it says, "Let us make man in our image." Christ, who was "full of grace and truth," proved He was the "image of the invisible God" through His faithfulness even unto death. In Him, both earthly and heavenly beings are "created" in the sense that they are given a new purpose within God's divine plan. The angels, who "minister for those who will inherit salvation" (Heb. 1:14), are commanded to honor Him—"let all the angels of God worship Him" (Heb. 1:6).

I see nothing in Col 1:15,16 which comes close to supporting Trinatarian dogma.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Regarding your John 1:3 reference "All things were made by him"

John is clearly referencing the creation account in Genesis, where God spoke and creation came into being (e.g., "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light" – Gen. 1:3). However, this creation was not directly carried out by Christ but by the "logos" (Word) of God, as indicated by various scriptures:

• "By the word of the LORD the heavens were made; and all their host by the breath of His mouth." "For He spoke, and it was done; He commanded, and it stood firm." (Psalm 33:6, 9). See also Psalm 107:20; 147:15, 18, 19; Isaiah 55:11.
• "By the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth was formed out of water and through water... And by the same word, the heavens and earth are kept in store, reserved for fire against the day of judgment and the destruction of ungodly men." (2 Peter 3:5, 7).

See also Hebrews 11:3 and Jeremiah 10:12-13.

F2F

 

[St. SteVen]

Regarding your John 1:3 reference "All things were made by him"

John is clearly referencing the creation account in Genesis, where God spoke and creation came into being (e.g., "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light" – Gen. 1:3). However, this creation was not directly carried out by Christ but by the "logos" (Word) of God, as indicated by various scriptures:

Who is the "him" in John 1:3 ?
- He was with God in the beginning. vs 2
- In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. vs 4
- There was a man sent from God whose name was John.
He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. vs 6-7
- He himself (john) was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. vs 8
- He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. vs 10
- He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 11

Who is the "him" in John 1:3 ?

John 1:1-13 NIV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.
5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.
6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John.
7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe.
8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.
9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

[

 

[Jack]

John 1:1-13 NIV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Yep, that's Jesus!

 

[Wick Stick]

Since none of these traits directly suggest that Jesus is on par with God (implying far more than mere divinity), everything hinges on interpretation.

"Fulness" does directly suggest that.

There were those in the early church who taught that Jesus was the embodiment of just one aspect of God (usually xristos - anointing). The heretic Simon Magus claimed to be such an incarnation of an aspect of God (exousia - power).

Colossians' claim that Jesus had the "fulness" of God refutes this idea, instead claiming for Jesus EVERY aspect of God's character. This is very much putting Him on par with the highest God Almighty.

 

[ElieG12]

The "lesser god" theory. ...

Is the God of Jesus a lesser god or a greater God than Jesus?

Rev. 3:12 ‘The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name. 13 Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations.’

John 14:28 You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I am.

 

[ElieG12]

"Fulness" does directly suggest that.

You're overthinking it...

By logical transfer, if Jesus have the fullness of God in an absolute sense, and Christians have the fullness of Jesus, what would that imply?

Ephe. 3:14 For this reason I bend my knees to the Father, 15 to whom every family in heaven and on earth owes its name. 16 I pray that he may grant you through the abundance of his glory to be made mighty in the man you are inside, with power through his spirit, 17 and that through your faith you may have the Christ dwell in your hearts with love. May you be rooted and established on the foundation, 18 in order that with all the holy ones you may be thoroughly able to comprehend fully what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19 and to know the love of the Christ, which surpasses knowledge, so that you may be filled with all the fullness that God gives.

 

[Wick Stick]

You're overthinking it...

You're giving me too much credit - there are no original thoughts from me there. That answer was the product of studying.

By logical transfer, if Jesus have the fullness of God in an absolute sense, and Christians have the fullness of Jesus, what would that imply?

Ephe. 3:14 For this reason I bend my knees to the Father, 15 to whom every family in heaven and on earth owes its name. 16 I pray that he may grant you through the abundance of his glory to be made mighty in the man you are inside, with power through his spirit, 17 and that through your faith you may have the Christ dwell in your hearts with love. May you be rooted and established on the foundation, 18 in order that with all the holy ones you may be thoroughly able to comprehend fully what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19 and to know the love of the Christ, which surpasses knowledge, so that you may be filled with all the fullness that God gives.

The clear answer is that would mean that Christians have the fulness of God in them. I believe that statement to be true.

But... maybe not true in the sense you intended. Every individual Christian does not have the fulness of God in them at every moment. But corporately - speaking of the church as the assembly - Christians do have the fulness of God in them.

This is also what the verses from Eph 3 you quoted say. You may want to check the Greek to verify, but... if the translator came from the place that I'm from... they would have translated like this:

Ephe. 3:14 For this reason I bend my knees to the Father, 15 to whom every family in heaven and on earth owes its name. 16 I pray that he might grant y'all through the abundance of his glory to be made mighty, in the inner man, with power through his spirit, 17 and that through your faith y'all might have Christ dwell in your hearts with love. May y'all be rooted and established on the foundation, 18 in order that, with all the holy ones, y'all may be thoroughly able to comprehend fully what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19 and to know the love of the Christ, which surpasses knowledge,...so that y'all might be filled with all the fulness that God gives.

(I think Tarsus might be somewhere near Dallas)

 

[Wick Stick]

I can play both sides of this argument.

Are you the fiddle or the guitar?