How close is the Seven Year Tribulation?

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, gentlemen.

I should probably add something else. Since it was the Messiah who made them desolate, AFTER He had been with them for 3.5 years (the length of His “ministry” or His offer of the Kingdom to the Jews), it was HE who put the “gap” in the 70 Sevens (Weeks) of years. And, since His offer of the Kingdom was halfway through the seventieth Seven, He put the “gap” in the MIDDLE of the Seven!

This means that what determines when the countdown will continue is based upon HIS prophecy accompanying His pronouncement of desolation:

Matthew 23:39
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till (until) ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV

This is a quotation from Psalm 118:26:

Psalm 118:26
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.
KJV

The Hebrew of this verse (transliterated) is this:

Tehiyl 118:26
26 Baaruwkh habaa’ b-sheem YHWH: Beerakhnuwkhem mibeeyt YHWH:
JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH

“Baaruwkh habaa’” is a Hebrew phrase still used today that means “Welcome, comer!” And, the phrase “b-sheem YHWH” means “in the name of the LORD” or “on the authority of the LORD,” referring to His authority as God's Messiah.

We English-speaking people have translated it as “Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD,” but it means “Welcome, Comer on the authority of the LORD!” Yeshua` was saying, therefore, that He wouldn’t be back until they can welcome Him as the Messiah that He is!

THAT is when the “gap” will be over!

 

[toknowthetruth]

Shabbat shalom, gentlemen.

Sorry, but the only way to understand something written in a language is to know that language. And, I wouldn’t leave your ability to know a language in the hands of an interpreter or a commentator of whom you know nothing. “Let GOD be true and EVERY man a liar!” - Paul, Romans 3:4. ...

Therefore, the “Antichrist” is NOT FOUND in Daniel 9:26-27!

Hi Retrobyter,

I'm glad to have someone in the discussion who has a good working knowledge of Hebrew. However, I don't know if you should assume that because of that you will be able to know for certain what the prophecy is saying. There are more considerations than what one word could or couldn't be. Another thing to consider is that languages and their grammar evolve over time. We also don't have first hand knowledge of what rules were followed for transcribing in those days. In my opinion to just take this one particular aspect of a passage and base a final judgement on that one aspect is faulty at best.

Personally I would put more weight on what picture is presented from the whole of prophetic passages and how individual passages fit in to that picture. To me it seems obvious that Dan 9:27 is a direct reference to the AC referred to in Dan 11:31-32. Of course the overspreading of abomonations that makes desolate is to me an obvious reference to the same in Matt 24:15, Dan 8:13; 11:31; and 12:11. The breaking of the covenant in the middle of the 7 years leaves 3.5 years which is to me another obvious reference to the 3.5 years of great tribulation in Dan 7:25; 12:7, Mat 24:21, Rev 11:2,3; 12:6,14; and 13:5.

 

[ATP]

Another thing to consider is that languages and their grammar evolve over time. We also don't have first hand knowledge of what rules were followed for transcribing in those days.

Evolve? Uhh no. Heb 13:8 NIV.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, ATP.

Evolve? Uhh no. Heb 13:8 NIV.

Well, perhaps “evolve” is not the best of words to use, but I think I understand where “toknowthetruth” is going with this. Languages DO change as people and their cultures change. He wasn’t talking about Yeshua` changing or God’s Word changing. Frankly, I would highly question EVER using the word “evolve” (as though it was an improvement) when it comes to people “changing” with time. “Devolve” would probably be closer to the truth.

 

[toknowthetruth]

Shabbat shalom, ATP.


Well, perhaps “evolve” is not the best of words to use, but I think I understand where “toknowthetruth” is going with this. Languages DO change as people and their cultures change. He wasn’t talking about Yeshua` changing or God’s Word changing. Frankly, I would highly question EVER using the word “evolve” (as though it was an improvement) when it comes to people “changing” with time. “Devolve” would probably be closer to the truth.

Ha! You're right Retrobyter, I meant change, or evolve as in progress, or develop. And it was in reference to "languages" not Jesus or His Word. Didn't know evolve was such a taboo word. Guess I'll stay away from that one from now on. :)

 

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, toknowthetruth.

Hi Retrobyter,

I'm glad to have someone in the discussion who has a good working knowledge of Hebrew. However, I don't know if you should assume that because of that you will be able to know for certain what the prophecy is saying. There are more considerations than what one word could or couldn't be. Another thing to consider is that languages and their grammar evolve over time. We also don't have first hand knowledge of what rules were followed for transcribing in those days. In my opinion to just take this one particular aspect of a passage and base a final judgement on that one aspect is faulty at best.

Personally I would put more weight on what picture is presented from the whole of prophetic passages and how individual passages fit in to that picture. To me it seems obvious that Dan 9:27 is a direct reference to the AC referred to in Dan 11:31-32. Of course the overspreading of abomonations that makes desolate is to me an obvious reference to the same in Matt 24:15, Dan 8:13; 11:31; and 12:11. The breaking of the covenant in the middle of the 7 years leaves 3.5 years which is to me another obvious reference to the 3.5 years of great tribulation in Dan 7:25; 12:7, Mat 24:21, Rev 11:2,3; 12:6,14; and 13:5.

Nor would it be a good idea to allow other passages that SEEM to be saying similar things just because they use a few similar words to dictate what prophetic passages go together. The three phrases in Daniel that SEEM to be talking about the same thing are NOT! First of all, the phrases are dissimilar and do not even use the exact same words: It would be like saying “The quick fox went down the hole,” and “The quick cheetah ran down the gazelle,” are related because they both use the words “the quick” and “down!” That’s a MAJOR problem with allowing words, like “tribulation” and “desolation” and “abomination," to take on a “label” status. When certain words, especially infrequently used words, are given such a status, they are soon graduated to the status of “they cannot mean anything else."

These words, however, HAVE MEANING! That is, there is a REASON for their usage! It’s not just an “Ee pleag neesta” like in an old Star Trek episode! It’s an “I pledge allegiance” with real words that MEAN SOMETHING! It’s like the modern questions of “Is it Constitutional?” when no one involved in the discussion has even READ the Constitution lately!

There’s nothing magical about the words “abomination” and “desolation!” Furthermore, CONTEXT demands that these three phrases be treated differently.

Daniel 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV

Daniel 11:31
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
KJV

Daniel 12:11
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
KJV

Here’s the Hebrew of each verse:

Daniel 9:27
27 V’higbiyr b’riyt laarabiym shaavuwa` ‘echaad vach’tsiy hashaavuwa` yashbiyt
zevach uwminchah v’`al k’naf shiquwtsiym m-shomeem v’`ad-kaalaah v’nech’raatsaah titakh `al-shomeem:
Hebrew transliterated from Masoretic Text as found in PC Study Bible

27 V’higbiyr = 27 And-he-shall-strengthen
b’riyt = a-covenant
laarabiym = to-many
shaavuwa` = seven
‘echaad = one
vach’tsiy = and-in-middle
hashaavuwa` = [of]-the-seven
yashbiyt = he-shall-cause-to-end
zevach = sacrifice
uwminchah = and-offering
v’`al = and-for
k’naf = a-spreading-out-[like-a-wing]
shiquwtsiym = [of]-abominations
m-shomeem = he-shall-make-desolate
v’`ad- = and-until
kaalaah = completion
v’nech’raatsaah = and-that-decision
titakh = shall-be-poured
`al- = upon
shomeem: = desolate:

Daniel 11:31
31 Uwzro`iym mimenuw ya`amoduw v-chilluw hamiqdaash hamaa`owz v-heeciyruw hataamiyd v-naatnuw hashiquwts m-showmeem:
Hebrew transliterated from Masoretic Text as found in PC Study Bible

31 Uwzro`iym = 31 And-arms
mimenuw = a-part-of-him
ya`amoduw = they-shall-stand
v-chilluw = and-they-shall-profane
hamiqdaash = the-sanctuary
hamaa`owz = of-the-strength
v-heeciyruw = and-they-shall-take-away
hataamiyd = the-daily
v-naatnuw = and-they-shall-place
hashiquwts = the-abomination
m-showmeem: = that-makes-desolate:

Daniel 12:11
11 Uwmee`eet huwcar hataamiyd v-laateet shiquwts shomeem yaamiym elef maa’tayim v-tish`iym:
Hebrew transliterated from Masoretic Text as found in PC Study Bible

11 Uwmee`eet = 11 And-from-time
huwcar = shall-be-taken-away
hataamiyd = the-daily
v-laateet = and-shall-set-up
shiquwts = an-abomination
shomeem = that-makes-desolate
yaamiym = days
elef = a-thousand
maa’tayim = two-hundred
v-tish`iym: = and-ninety:

Of the three, the last two are probably closer to each other than either is to Daniel 9:27. The phrasing is quite different, and shiquwtsiym in Daniel 9:27 is plural instead of the singular shiquwts. Furthermore, the phrase “k’naf shiquwtsiym” is the construct state. As such, the “shiquwtsiym” does NOT participate in the subject or objects of the sentence.

From a contextual point of view, Daniel 12:11 talks about AFTER the deed is done while Daniel 11:31 talks about the DOING of the deed!

It is accepted by Jews and Christians alike world-wide that Daniel 11:31 is talking about the deeds of Antiochus IV “Epiphanes” on 25 Kislev 168 B.C when he sacrificed a pig on God’s altar and defiled the Temple by setting up an image of himself as the god Zeus.

Of the three, it would be Daniel 9:27 to which Yeshua` alluded in His Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24:15; Mark 13:14; Luke 21:20), and He was not talking about "setting up an idol.” He was talking about the “overspreading of detestable rejections that led to the desolation that Yeshua` pronounced upon Jerusalem that, in turn, led to the destruction of Jerusalem, itself a detestable act, 40 years later in 70 A.D!

 

[toknowthetruth]

Shabbat shalom, toknowthetruth.


Nor would it be a good idea to allow other passages that SEEM to be saying similar things just because they use a few similar words to dictate what prophetic passages go together. The three phrases in Daniel that SEEM to be talking about the same thing are NOT! First of all, the phrases are dissimilar and do not even use the exact same words: It would be like saying “The quick fox went down the hole,” and “The quick cheetah ran down the gazelle,” are related because they both use the words “the quick” and “down!” That’s a MAJOR problem with allowing words, like “tribulation” and “desolation” and “abomination," to take on a “label” status. When certain words, especially infrequently used words, are given such a status, they are soon graduated to the status of “they cannot mean anything else."...

Of the three, it would be Daniel 9:27 to which Yeshua` alluded in His Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24:15; Mark 13:14; Luke 21:20), and He was not talking about "setting up an idol.” He was talking about the “overspreading of detestable rejections that led to the desolation that Yeshua` pronounced upon Jerusalem that, in turn, led to the destruction of Jerusalem, itself a detestable act, 40 years later in 70 A.D!

Interesting discourse. You seem quite convinced of what you're saying. And you may be right. Don't find it too convincing myself though. Still looks to me like they're all talking about the same thing. :)

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, toknowthetruth.

Take your time and study it out. I might also suggest giving these three words, “abomination,” “desolation,” and “tribulation,” simpler and more common synonyms as you read the text. For instance, an “abomination” is a “disgusting thing.” A “desolation” is an “emptying,” and a “tribulation” is a “pressure (from overcrowding).” Make these substitutions often and see what is actually being said. When we make these words “labels” or “titles” of particular, future events or periods, we do ourselves a disservice, because we COUCH the true meaning of the words in our theological philosophy, with all the prejudices that go along with such action.

 

[toknowthetruth]

Shalom, toknowthetruth.

Take your time and study it out. I might also suggest giving these three words, “abomination,” “desolation,” and “tribulation,” simpler and more common synonyms as you read the text. For instance, an “abomination” is a “disgusting thing.” A “desolation” is an “emptying,” and a “tribulation” is a “pressure (from overcrowding).” Make these substitutions often and see what is actually being said. When we make these words “labels” or “titles” of particular, future events or periods, we do ourselves a disservice, because we COUCH the true meaning of the words in our theological philosophy, with all the prejudices that go along with such action.

Can't say I totally agree with you there. I think similar wording can be a very strong indication of connection with other passages. To me prophecy itself is fluid in nature and there's no cut and dry formula to follow in understanding how things fit together. The best approach to me is like putting a puzzle together. First there needs to be an understanding of the picture as a whole. Next the easier pieces need to be put in place, first the corner pieces, and then the pieces on the edge. Once that's done it's a matter of seeing how the rest of the pieces fit together with those pieces. Seems to me if you get too caught up in specific details without taking into account the big picture and how the rest of the details fit together it's going to be next to impossible, if not impossible, to get the individual pieces to fit together in the way they're supposed to.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, toknowthetruth.

Can't say I totally agree with you there. I think similar wording can be a very strong indication of connection with other passages. To me prophecy itself is fluid in nature and there's no cut and dry formula to follow in understanding how things fit together. The best approach to me is like putting a puzzle together. First there needs to be an understanding of the picture as a whole. Next the easier pieces need to be put in place, first the corner pieces, and then the pieces on the edge. Once that's done it's a matter of seeing how the rest of the pieces fit together with those pieces. Seems to me if you get too caught up in specific details without taking into account the big picture and how the rest of the details fit together it's going to be next to impossible, if not impossible, to get the individual pieces to fit together in the way they're supposed to.

I’ve used the analogy of a puzzle before, as well. One thing you’ve forgotten: Be sure that you have all the puzzle pieces identified! I believe that it’s a doable challenge, but there’s nothing worse than having MOST of the pieces and having pieces MISSING, especially when one tries to FORCE a puzzle piece into an area where it doesn’t belong BECAUSE there’s a piece missing!

For instance, Matthew 25 talks about the separation of the sheep and the goat nations. How often have you heard this being used for the END of the Millennium? It doesn’t belong there; it’s at the BEGINNING of the Millennium!

And, Matthew 13 talks about the separation of the wheat and the tares (weeds). How often have you heard this being used for the BEGINNING of the Millennium, supposedly "at the end of this age" when the Messiah returns? It doesn’t belong there; it’s at the END of the Millennium!

And, there are MANY other puzzle pieces that are misplaced and FORCED where they don’t belong!

 

[toknowthetruth]

Shalom, toknowthetruth.


I’ve used the analogy of a puzzle before, as well. One thing you’ve forgotten: Be sure that you have all the puzzle pieces identified! I believe that it’s a doable challenge, but there’s nothing worse than having MOST of the pieces and having pieces MISSING, especially when one tries to FORCE a puzzle piece into an area where it doesn’t belong BECAUSE there’s a piece missing!

For instance, Matthew 25 talks about the separation of the sheep and the goat nations. How often have you heard this being used for the END of the Millennium? It doesn’t belong there; it’s at the BEGINNING of the Millennium!

And, Matthew 13 talks about the separation of the wheat and the tares (weeds). How often have you heard this being used for the BEGINNING of the Millennium, supposedly "at the end of this age" when the Messiah returns? It doesn’t belong there; it’s at the END of the Millennium!

And, there are MANY other puzzle pieces that are misplaced and FORCED where they don’t belong!

That's a good point. I would say having the big picture and then the border or foundation pieces in place is key. Getting the other pieces in place is important, but if you don't have those two key elements in place no matter what you do things will never match up the way they should.

 

[Phoneman777]

This thread was started four years ago and the near 20% who voted that the Tribulation has already started will soon have to rethink their vote. Just three years left to get the world turned upside down, see "the war that will kill one third of mankind" come to pass, and see the rest of Dispensationalism's claims about end time prophecy to unfold.

I remember Irvin Baxter posing the same question in 2004 - just before I discovered that this undetermined "time of trouble" through which the church will go will immediately precede the return of Christ - and here it is 11 years later and yet many of his listeners still anxiously await it. He seems to be pointing people to GAD instead of God

 

[DogLady19]

The 7 year Tribulation is began along time ago, and we are currently in it today... I believe it began when Caligula placed his statue in the Holy of Holies, and the 1st 42 months ended when he was assassinated.

We are currently experiencing the poisoning of our water, earthquakes, famines, wars, persecutions, etc. We are also seeing a pouring out of the Holy Spirit upon His witnesses to boldly and diligently spread the Gospel everywhere... We have to stay in the world, but not of it, until everyone has heard about Jesus.

Then we'll get snatched up so the world and its evil can finally be destroyed and re-created...

 

[toknowthetruth]

This thread was started four years ago and the near 20% who voted that the Tribulation has already started will soon have to rethink their vote. Just three years left to get the world turned upside down, see "the war that will kill one third of mankind" come to pass, and see the rest of Dispensationalism's claims about end time prophecy to unfold.

I remember Irvin Baxter posing the same question in 2004 - just before I discovered that this undetermined "time of trouble" through which the church will go will immediately precede the return of Christ - and here it is 11 years later and yet many of his listeners still anxiously await it. He seems to be pointing people to GAD instead of God

The way I see it until there's an international agreement that allows the Jews to rebuild their temple we have more than 7 years at least before the end. Could be close, or could be a ways away. Can't really say. But from what I understand when that temple starts going up the countdown has already begun.

 

[Phoneman777]

The way I see it until there's an international agreement that allows the Jews to rebuild their temple we have more than 7 years at least before the end. Could be close, or could be a ways away. Can't really say. But from what I understand when that temple starts going up the countdown has already begun.

My belief is that the 70th week began at "Messiah the Prince" when Jesus was "Messiah-ed" in the River Jordon with the anointing of the Holy Spirit, reached it's midpoint at the Cross of Calvary, and expired 3 1/2 years later with the stoning of Stephen and the Gospel being taken from the Jews and given to the Gentiles. This is what the Protestant Reformers all believed until the Jesuits introduced the idea of Jesuit Futurism -which was formerly rejected for over 300 years but is now firmly embraced by Protestants - and the "last seven years of tribulation" which forms the basis for this fallacy.

My boss called me in and asked me why my company truck was parked from Noon to 4:00 PM at the diner. I told him I was there on my lunch hour. He leaned back and smiled and asked me to explain how FOUR hours can fit into one lunch hour and I told him it was simple:

There was a 3 hour "gap" between the 59th and 60th minute of my lunch hour, and therefore my lunch hour was only one hour. Sound's a bit silly, doesn't it?

 

[ATP]

The 7 year Tribulation is began along time ago, and we are currently in it today... I believe it began when Caligula placed his statue in the Holy of Holies, and the 1st 42 months ended when he was assassinated.

We are currently experiencing the poisoning of our water, earthquakes, famines, wars, persecutions, etc. We are also seeing a pouring out of the Holy Spirit upon His witnesses to boldly and diligently spread the Gospel everywhere... We have to stay in the world, but not of it, until everyone has heard about Jesus.

The 7 year tribulation began a long time ago? Um, no. What were experiencing is called birth pains. "Tribulation birth pains" and "The 3.5 year Great Tribulation of God's wrath" are not the same events.

 

[DogLady19]

The 7 year tribulation began a long time ago? Um, no. What were experiencing is called birth pains. "Tribulation birth pains" and "The 3.5 year Great Tribulation of God's wrath" are not the same events.

Never heard of Tribulation birth pains... Can you point me to some scripture about that?

 

[ATP]

Never heard of Tribulation birth pains... Can you point me to some scripture about that?

Isa 13:6-8 NIV Wail, for the day of the Lord is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty. 7Because of this, all hands will go limp, every heart will melt with fear. 8Terror will seize them, pain and anguish will grip them; they will writhe like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at each other, their faces aflame.

Isa 26:16-18 NIV Lord, they came to you in their distress; when you disciplined them, they could barely whisper a prayer. 17As a pregnant woman about to give birth writhes and cries out in her pain, so were we in your presence, Lord. 18We were with child, we writhed in labor, but we gave birth to wind. We have not brought salvation to the earth, and the people of the world have not come to life.

Matt 24:4-8 NIV Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

Rom 8:22 NIV We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

1 Thess 5:3 NIV While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

Rev 12:2 NIV She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.

 

[toknowthetruth]

My belief is that the 70th week began at "Messiah the Prince" when Jesus was "Messiah-ed" in the River Jordon with the anointing of the Holy Spirit, reached it's midpoint at the Cross of Calvary, and expired 3 1/2 years later with the stoning of Stephen and the Gospel being taken from the Jews and given to the Gentiles. This is what the Protestant Reformers all believed until the Jesuits introduced the idea of Jesuit Futurism -which was formerly rejected for over 300 years but is now firmly embraced by Protestants - and the "last seven years of tribulation" which forms the basis for this fallacy.

My boss called me in and asked me why my company truck was parked from Noon to 4:00 PM at the diner. I told him I was there on my lunch hour. He leaned back and smiled and asked me to explain how FOUR hours can fit into one lunch hour and I told him it was simple:

There was a 3 hour "gap" between the 59th and 60th minute of my lunch hour, and therefore my lunch hour was only one hour. Sound's a bit silly, doesn't it?

LOL! Yes, that would be a bit funny. However, we're not talking about bosses, or lunch hours, etc. We're talking about Bible prophecy. The way I see it, the fact that there are many different interpretations makes it pretty clear that you can't put things in a box and say, "it can't be this way". The thing is that the different interpretations out there all have what seem to be problems. For me the question is, which one makes the most sense? In my opinion the so called "gap" problem is an insignificant issue. I would say the most important issue is how does the interpretation of an individual passage measure up to the picture that is being painted overall by the related passages?

 

[DogLady19]

Isa 13:6-8 NIV Wail, for the day of the Lord is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty. 7Because of this, all hands will go limp, every heart will melt with fear. 8Terror will seize them, pain and anguish will grip them; they will writhe like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at each other, their faces aflame.

Isa 26:16-18 NIV Lord, they came to you in their distress; when you disciplined them, they could barely whisper a prayer. 17As a pregnant woman about to give birth writhes and cries out in her pain, so were we in your presence, Lord. 18We were with child, we writhed in labor, but we gave birth to wind. We have not brought salvation to the earth, and the people of the world have not come to life.

Matt 24:4-8 NIV Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

Rom 8:22 NIV We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

1 Thess 5:3 NIV While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

Rev 12:2 NIV She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.

Yes, I know these scriptures... but I don't see them as some precursor to the Tribulation... The Tribulation itself is the birth pains. Once a woman gives birth, the pain is over and the joy has arrived... John 16:21

As I said before, we are already experiencing "Nation will rising against nation, and kingdom against kingdom... famines and earthquakes in various places."

The woman giving birth in Revelations is the church... her painful labor is spreading the Gospel at her peril, with persecutions, barriers, and hard work because Jesus will not return until the church's work is done...

The passage in Isa 26 ends with the events that come after the Tribulation... and 1 Thess 5 is clearly in context with the coming of the Lord for judgment on the earth. The labor itself is the Tribulation.