How close is the Seven Year Tribulation?

[DaDad]

I think your questions are above my ...

Hi shturt678,

I'm confused. How is it that you assert various doctrines, and when challenged, deny proficiency? Are there two of you?


With Best Regards,
DD

 

[shturt678]

Hi shturt678,

I'm confused. How is it that you assert various doctrines, and when challenged, deny proficiency? Are there two of you?


With Best Regards,
DD

Thank you for your response and going the mile with me!

Decades ago I thought there were only 4 or 5 groups of interpretations regarding Revelation where I immediately plugged into the most pervasive view, "Amillennialism." After a few months (decades ago), I then seen there are more than 4 or 5 groups of interpretations in the "Amillennial" camp. I confronted two of the most esteemed Doctorates (Ancient language's Doctorates) to narrow down the diverse interpretations only resulting in waaay more than 4 or 5 groups of interpretations regarding just the "Amillennial" group where each strongly feels they have the "1" valid interpretation? My point:

I would be a fool to think I'm proficient enough to be the one on the planet that has the "1" valid interpretation in the "1" valid group, however I would like to think that I've at least non-foolishly narrowed down syllogistically what the "1" valid group is, ie, the "Synchonous" interpretation viewing Revelation as coming to the end of the world "7" times in "7" different chapters thus can only posit a truthful (not the "1" valid interpretation) interpretation of any passage in Revelation. I try to meet others right where they are at with their view, bridging the gap sort of thing, which I thought I clearly did with you sir. In this way we both come away with something: Let us all be in error regarding the valid "1" interpretation where we give it our best to be as close as possible to the "1" vaiid interpretation by reasoning from the general to the specific deductively purging the invalid interpreations over time.

Thus I don't have the "1" valid interpretation for sure regarding Revelation, and you may think you have - I don't know your thinking on this - combined with my lower paygrade status - combined with keep pursuing the non-burden of Revelation, Rev.12 & 13 (the burden of Revelation is in the Trumpets, Rev. chapters 8 & 9) - combined with your of a different "group" than I am - would only result in me being more incompetent, correct?

Old lower paygrade Jack that really appreciates you and your words sir.

 

[DaDad]

... Thus I don't have the "1" valid interpretation for sure regarding Revelation, ...

Hi shturt678,

First of all, I would propose that there is ONE interpretation for Scripture, as provided by GOD. As such, it would behoove us to diligently search that TRUTH. For example, when Newton evaluated the "Classical" interpretation for the Prophecies of Daniel he quickly discounted those versions, and then performed his own research. In the end he realized he came up empty (for he did not live in the time of the end, as dictated in Dan. 12;4 & Dan. 12:9).

So Newton had two choices:
1. publish his BEST (your word) effort which was FALSE, as others had done
2. NOT publish

Newton chose NOT to publish. Thus he deserves his SIR. The others simply deserve LIAR.



And so each of us makes our own decisions. Do we speak on things for which we have no clue, or do we keep our mouths shut until we do come to an accurate knowledge?

Accordingly, I would observe that your assertions regarding Rev. 13 do not have a foundational basis, as you now confess. So you might consider YOUR two choices:

1. publish your BEST (your word) effort which is FALSE, as others had done
2. NOT publish



If you choose #2, I would be more than happy to provide the foundation understanding which you seek.

With Best Regards,
DD

 

[shturt678]

Hi shturt678,

First of all, I would propose that there is ONE interpretation for Scripture, as provided by GOD. As such, it would behoove us to diligently search that TRUTH. For example, when Newton evaluated the "Classical" interpretation for the Prophecies of Daniel he quickly discounted those versions, and then performed his own research. In the end he realized he came up empty (for he did not live in the time of the end, as dictated in Dan. 12;4 & Dan. 12:9).

So Newton had two choices:
1. publish his BEST (your word) effort which was FALSE, as others had done
2. NOT publish

Newton chose NOT to publish. Thus he deserves his SIR. The others simply deserve LIAR.



And so each of us makes our own decisions. Do we speak on things for which we have no clue, or do we keep our mouths shut until we do come to an accurate knowledge?

Accordingly, I would observe that your assertions regarding Rev. 13 do not have a foundational basis, as you now confess. So you might consider YOUR two choices:

1. publish your BEST (your word) effort which is FALSE, as others had done
2. NOT publish



If you choose #2, I would be more than happy to provide the foundation understanding which you seek.

With Best Regards,
DD

Thank you for your very coherent and to the point response!

I already found the "foundation" laid down by the older outdated Lutherans, eg, M. Chemnitz (1560 or so) to Commentaries and Sermons to about 1918 or so where things started to get fallaciously unknowingly modernized, eg, Rev.13:1-10, the whole antichristian power in the whole world and nothing less sir. All works that say less unknowingly insert error in these passages.

Old Jack,

Thank you again.

 

[DaDad]

I already found the "foundation" laid down by the older outdated Lutherans, eg, M. Chemnitz (1560 or so) to Commentaries and Sermons ...

Hi shturt678,

If what you said were true, then you would have provided answers to the following:



Rev. 12 SEVEN diadems over the "seven heads"

1.a . It is understood that the "location" is the "seven heads".

1.b. Is it the "seven" or the "heads" (or combination) which you suggest = "in heaven"?

1.c. What criteria makes the "seven" and/or "heads" = "in heaven"?

1.d. In any case, please explain both the significance of the "seven" and "heads", and your criteria.


Rev. 13 TEN diadems over the "ten horns"

2.a. It is understood that the "location" is the "ten horns".

2.b. Is it the "ten" or the "horns" (or combination) which you suggest = "earth"?

2.c. What criteria makes the "ten" and/or "horns" = "earth"?

2.d. In any case, please explain both the significance of the "ten" and "horns", and your criteria.




Secondly, it seems where you haven't answered the "locations", I suppose I shouldn't expect an answer to the quantities:


1. Rev. 12 has SEVEN diadems over the "seven heads"

2. Rev. 13 has TEN diadems over the "ten horns"

3. WHY did the locations and quantities change.




But because you have asserted that you do not have these answers, and yet attest that you do, -- one of you is not telling the TRUTH.



With Best Regards,
DD

 

[shturt678]

Hi shturt678,

If what you said were true, then you would have provided answers to the following:



Rev. 12 SEVEN diadems over the "seven heads"

1.a . It is understood that the "location" is the "seven heads".

1.b. Is it the "seven" or the "heads" (or combination) which you suggest = "in heaven"?

1.c. What criteria makes the "seven" and/or "heads" = "in heaven"?

1.d. In any case, please explain both the significance of the "seven" and "heads", and your criteria.


Rev. 13 TEN diadems over the "ten horns"

2.a. It is understood that the "location" is the "ten horns".

2.b. Is it the "ten" or the "horns" (or combination) which you suggest = "earth"?

2.c. What criteria makes the "ten" and/or "horns" = "earth"?

2.d. In any case, please explain both the significance of the "ten" and "horns", and your criteria.




Secondly, it seems where you haven't answered the "locations", I suppose I shouldn't expect an answer to the quantities:


1. Rev. 12 has SEVEN diadems over the "seven heads"

2. Rev. 13 has TEN diadems over the "ten horns"

3. WHY did the locations and quantities change.




But because you have asserted that you do not have these answers, and yet attest that you do, -- one of you is not telling the TRUTH.



With Best Regards,
DD

Thank you for caring and your response again!

I held off as long as possible so this thread doesn't take a different direction, however the only true way a 'language barrier' question can be cognatively and coherently responded to is to base the question upon how one perceives, and bases the question upon, genuine facts.

You preceive translated into the English language's structure of thoughts, Bibles, as the Inspired Word of God obviously with your questions and responses. I view translated Bibles, along with their ancient language's Texts, as great aides in some measure in order to indicate the original inspired Autographs we no longer have for a valid interpretation, yet not inspired for sure.

My point: Reset your question going from the ancient languages forward to the English, and not backwards as you've repeatedly have done, then I could even give a simple to the point coherent response to an interrminable question sir.

It's all in the facts perceived, Jack - Joe Friday sort of thing

 

[DaDad]

Reset your question ...

Hi shturt678,

Perhaps you are grasping for straws in your refusal to defend your doctrine:


1. You assert your doctrine.

2. I challenge your foundation.

3. You assert ignorance regarding the foundation.

4. I challenge your discrepancy between #1 & #3.

5. You demand that I provide an Interlinear text.

6. I suggest you find your own Interlinear to defend your own doctrine.

7. You demand that I wear a blue shirt before challenging your doctrines.

8. I suggest you wear blue lenses in your glasses.




If you don't perform as Scripture dictates:

2 Timothy 4:2
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.


Then you receive the consequence:

Mark 11:14
13 From a distance Jesus saw a fig tree covered with leaves, and he went to see if there were any figs on the tree. But there were not any, because it wasn’t the season for figs. 14 So Jesus said to the tree, “Never again will anyone eat fruit from this tree!”



With Best Regards,
DD

 

[shturt678]

Hi shturt678,

Perhaps you are grasping for straws in your refusal to defend your doctrine:

Thank you for your response and caring again!

I would say that defending the docrine laid out in IIPet.1:20, 21 is to be defended by you also sir, ie, no straw man argument here?



1. You assert your doctrine.

Questions posed from non-inspired, extremely interpretive translated, full of discrepancies, Bibles going from the English backwards to the ancient languages can only result in fallacious interpretations sir. Bible's one valid interpretion = Scripture. Bibles & copies of the original inspired Autographs = / = inspired Scriptures as you think they do sir.

2. I challenge your foundation.

3. You assert ignorance regarding the foundation.

Always pose a question from the context and aspect of a passage, ie, not from a non-inspired extremely interpretive translated grammatical Text sir.

4. I challenge your discrepancy between #1 & #3.

We agree to agree regarding that I fall under the 'ignorance creed,' and thank you for your patience and understanding sir.

5. You demand that I provide an Interlinear text.

6. I suggest you find your own Interlinear to defend your own doctrine.

Only because we cannot trust our Church leaders with our forever abode, and me for sure, then all accountable need to interpret the Word going from the ancient languages forward to the English using the tools that our Lord God-man Jesus Christ left us with in light of ICor.12:10, eg, using Bibles, Interlinears (especially dealing with the Koine's hyperbaton tjhe English cannot duplicate), Lexicons, Commentaries, and etc. plus all enrolled in a basic life time basic ancient Greek course (perferable 8 case system). IIPet.1:20, 21 construed with ICor.12:10 construed with IITim.4:2 & 2:14.

7. You demand that I wear a blue shirt before challenging your doctrines.

8. I suggest you wear blue lenses in your glasses.

I thank you for your refute sir.

If you don't perform as Scripture dictates:

2 Timothy 4:2
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.


Then you receive the consequence:

Mark 11:14
13 From a distance Jesus saw a fig tree covered with leaves, and he went to see if there were any figs on the tree. But there were not any, because it wasn’t the season for figs. 14 So Jesus said to the tree, “Never again will anyone eat fruit from this tree!”



With Best Regards,
DD

Old Jack calling a 'fig' a 'fig.'

 

[DaDad]

To All,

It's too bad we cannot resolve the Rev. 13 fundamental aspects:



Rev. 12 SEVEN diadems over the "seven heads"

1.a . It is understood that the "location" is the "seven heads".

1.b. Is it the "seven" or the "heads" (or combination) which you suggest = "in heaven"?

1.c. What criteria makes the "seven" and/or "heads" = "in heaven"?

1.d. In any case, please explain both the significance of the "seven" and "heads", and your criteria.


Rev. 13 TEN diadems over the "ten horns"

2.a. It is understood that the "location" is the "ten horns".

2.b. Is it the "ten" or the "horns" (or combination) which you suggest = "earth"?

2.c. What criteria makes the "ten" and/or "horns" = "earth"?

2.d. In any case, please explain both the significance of the "ten" and "horns", and your criteria.




Secondly, it seems where you haven't answered the "locations", I suppose I shouldn't expect an answer to the quantities:


1. Rev. 12 has SEVEN diadems over the "seven heads"

2. Rev. 13 has TEN diadems over the "ten horns"

3. WHY did the locations and quantities change.



Apparently people would rather discount than discover, distract than dialogue, and accuse than acknowledge.

With Best Regards,
DD

 

[shturt678]

I was just curious to know what people thought as to how close we were to the seven year tribulation? I just wanted to say, I didn't really want to turn this thread into a does a seven year tribulation exist vs does not exist thread. If you don't believe in it, great, vote you don't believe in it and move on, or start another thread on why you don't believe in it.

Joshua David

Threads of great import tend to die out too too early thus......

Rev.7:14 (Dan.9:27, "one heptad"), "out of the tribulation, the great one," noting the adjective is added by a second article and hence emphatic, ie, it's like an apposition and a climax. "the Great Tribulation" via the English structure of thoughts way of thinking makes this refer to a terrrible time yet to come,eg, noting Matt.24:21-28 which refers to the destruction of Jerusalem. We are all born into nearing the very end of the "Tribulation," where too many are looking for it in some future time.

Old "Nowist" Jack

btw the 5th and 6th Trumpets expound exactly what's happening today, however needs to be undressed God's way.

 

[Jun2u]

Can someone please show me in Scripture if there be any Seven Year Tribulation? I don't recall reading any!

To God Be The Glory

 

[shturt678]

Can someone please show me in Scripture if there be any Seven Year Tribulation? I don't recall reading any!

To God Be The Glory

Thank you for caring, ie, most in the State I live in could care less!

Eyeball Dan.9:25, "seven weeks" A.V.

Old A.V. & RSV Jack

 

[Floyd]

Can someone please show me in Scripture if there be any Seven Year Tribulation? I don't recall reading any!

To God Be The Glory

IMO there is not a 7 year trib.
However; what I think has happened, is that the 7 years left of the 490 given to Dan. have been subsumed into "the 7 years Trib".
I do believe that there is to be a 3.5 years Trib. on Israel; which correlates to "Jacob's Trouble" of prophecy, which is Satan's attempt to annihilate Israel.
I also believe that "God's Wrath" on the Gentiles will be at least partially simultaneous with Jacob's Trouble.
Floyd.

To All,

It's too bad we cannot resolve the Rev. 13 fundamental aspects:



Rev. 12 SEVEN diadems over the "seven heads"

1.a . It is understood that the "location" is the "seven heads".

1.b. Is it the "seven" or the "heads" (or combination) which you suggest = "in heaven"?

1.c. What criteria makes the "seven" and/or "heads" = "in heaven"?

1.d. In any case, please explain both the significance of the "seven" and "heads", and your criteria.


Rev. 13 TEN diadems over the "ten horns"

2.a. It is understood that the "location" is the "ten horns".

2.b. Is it the "ten" or the "horns" (or combination) which you suggest = "earth"?

2.c. What criteria makes the "ten" and/or "horns" = "earth"?

2.d. In any case, please explain both the significance of the "ten" and "horns", and your criteria.




Secondly, it seems where you haven't answered the "locations", I suppose I shouldn't expect an answer to the quantities:


1. Rev. 12 has SEVEN diadems over the "seven heads"

2. Rev. 13 has TEN diadems over the "ten horns"

3. WHY did the locations and quantities change.



Apparently people would rather discount than discover, distract than dialogue, and accuse than acknowledge.

With Best Regards,
DD

Hi DD.
I have not followed this thread due to travel; but, I have to say that I do not understand this layout of yours; although to attempt to do it justice; I would appreciate your explanation for me, so that I can examine and comment intelligently .
Thanks.
Floyd.

 

[shturt678]

IMO there is not a 7 year trib.
However; what I think has happened, is that the 7 years left of the 490 given to Dan. have been subsumed into "the 7 years Trib".
I do believe that there is to be a 3.5 years Trib. on Israel; which correlates to "Jacob's Trouble" of prophecy, which is Satan's attempt to annihilate Israel.
I also believe that "God's Wrath" on the Gentiles will be at least partially simultaneous with Jacob's Trouble.
Floyd.


Hi DD.
I have not followed this thread due to travel; but, I have to say that I do not understand this layout of yours; although to attempt to do it justice; I would appreciate your explanation for me, so that I can examine and comment intelligently .
Thanks.
Floyd.

Thank you for caring!

I find it striking that you project the symbolcial 3.5 years off to some future era where I strongly understand that we are nearing the end of the "Tribulation" with a soon 'loosing of Satan personally' at Rev.20:7?

Old Jack's opinion

 

[Floyd]

Thank you for caring!

I find it striking that you project the symbolcial 3.5 years off to some future era where I strongly understand that we are nearing the end of the "Tribulation" with a soon 'loosing of Satan personally' at Rev.20:7?

Old Jack's opinion

Hi Jack; I have never been able to accept your premise, which I examined years ago, but has reared its head again recently. No; I am certain that Satan is not bound until "The Day of the Lord (Jehovah of Israel's Covenant)"; which has never yet been the case!
In the OT; Elohim has many Titles, most of which have been reduced to "Lord"; which does nothing for understanding!
In the "day of the Lord" His title is "Jehovah Zebaoth" (God of all the world's people); which has not yet been the case!
Wherever you see that title in "unadulterated" translations; you know you are looking at "the Day of Jehovah Zebaoth" in prophecy; which cannot be the case until the end of this present Age; that of the "Gentiles" ; which cannot be far away, such is the world's corruption!
Israel is the true signpost as to timing; and the surrounding nations, listed in Scripture!
Floyd. www.revelationsmessage.co.uk

 

[shturt678]

Hi Jack; I have never been able to accept your premise, which I examined years ago, but has reared its head again recently. No; I am certain that Satan is not bound until "The Day of the Lord (Jehovah of Israel's Covenant)"; which has never yet been the case!
In the OT; Elohim has many Titles, most of which have been reduced to "Lord"; which does nothing for understanding!
In the "day of the Lord" His title is "Jehovah Zebaoth" (God of all the world's people); which has not yet been the case!
Wherever you see that title in "unadulterated" translations; you know you are looking at "the Day of Jehovah Zebaoth" in prophecy; which cannot be the case until the end of this present Age; that of the "Gentiles" ; which cannot be far away, such is the world's corruption!
Israel is the true signpost as to timing; and the surrounding nations, listed in Scripture!
Floyd. www.revelationsmessage.co.uk

Thank you again for your response, ie, wish I was on your team - you're coming out as an O.K. Christian the more I get to know you!

I always thought the Hebrew name Elohim is derived from a root found in the Arabic meaning (Semetic langauge of course) "to fear" or "to reverence." His omnipotence rouses man's reverence and holy fear rather than His agape, correct brother Floyd? IOW, it brings the Creator to man's notice rather as Elohim than from any other point of view.

 

[DaDad]

Hi Floyd,

Hi DD.
I have not followed this thread due to travel; but, I have to say that I do not understand this layout of yours; although to attempt to do it justice; I would appreciate your explanation for me, so that I can examine and comment intelligently .
Thanks.
Floyd.

I wasn't espousing any perspective other than what Scripture says, so that "shturt678" could ARRIVE to his Rev. 13 doctrine, rather than simply pick a salient point and declare victory.

As such, I attempted to outline those distinctions between Rev. 12 Seven Diadems on Seven Heads, versus the Rev. 13 TEN Diadems on TEN Horns. So the question is, -- What Changed?



With Best Regards,
DD



Hi Jun2u,

Can someone please show me in Scripture if there be any Seven Year Tribulation? I don't recall reading any!

If anyone assert a doctrine without the FULL context of the passages, you'd be well advised to be VERY CAUTIOUS. As such, I would propose that John Walvoord (Dallas Theological Seminary) surveyed the best minds in his book "Daniel, The Key To Prophetic Revelation", and those scholars came up empty, with Montgomery declaring:

The history of the exegesis of the 70 Weeks is the Dismal Swamp of O. T. criticism. The difficulties that beset any "rationalistic" treatment of the figures are great enough, but the critics on this side of the fence do not agree among themselves; but the trackless wilderness of assumptions and theories and efforts to obtain an exact chronology fitting into the the history of Salvation, after these 2,000 years of infinitely varied interpretations, would seem to preclude any use of the 70 Weeks for the determination of a definite prophetic chronology. ... "

John Wolvoord, "Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation", Moody Press, Chicago, 1971, p. 217

And if you've seen the move "Princess Bride", you should know that everyone goes into a "dismal swamp", but NO ONE comes out! And so stands the "church" doctrine of a seven year tribulation, -- from this purported seventieth week, which has ABSOLUTELY NO FOUNDATION whatsoever.



With Best Regards,
DD

 

[Floyd]

Floyd, on 10 May 2014 - 3:04 PM, said:

Hi DD.
I have not followed this thread due to travel; but, I have to say that I do not understand this layout of yours; although to attempt to do it justice; I would appreciate your explanation for me, so that I can examine and comment intelligently .
Thanks.
Floyd.

I wasn't espousing any perspective other than what Scripture says, so that "shturt678" could ARRIVE to his Rev. 13 doctrine, rather than simply pick a salient point and declare victory.

As such, I attempted to outline those distinctions between Rev. 12 Seven Diadems on Seven Heads, versus the Rev. 13 TEN Diadems on TEN Horns. So the question is, -- What Changed?



With Best Regards,
DD

OK; thanks DD.
Floyd.







Quote

Hi Jack; I have never been able to accept your premise, which I examined years ago, but has reared its head again recently. No; I am certain that Satan is not bound until "The Day of the Lord (Jehovah of Israel's Covenant)"; which has never yet been the case!
In the OT; Elohim has many Titles, most of which have been reduced to "Lord"; which does nothing for understanding!
In the "day of the Lord" His title is "Jehovah Zebaoth" (God of all the world's people); which has not yet been the case!
Wherever you see that title in "unadulterated" translations; you know you are looking at "the Day of Jehovah Zebaoth" in prophecy; which cannot be the case until the end of this present Age; that of the "Gentiles" ; which cannot be far away, such is the world's corruption!
Israel is the true signpost as to timing; and the surrounding nations, listed in Scripture!
Floyd. www.revelationsmessage.co.uk

Thank you again for your response, ie, wish I was on your team - you're coming out as an O.K. Christian the more I get to know you!

I always thought the Hebrew name Elohim is derived from a root found in the Arabic meaning (Semetic langauge of course) "to fear" or "to reverence." His omnipotence rouses man's reverence and holy fear rather than His agape, correct brother Floyd? IOW, it brings the Creator to man's notice rather as Elohim than from any other point of view.




Jack: the following are the various names of God (Elohim); depending on what He purposed/purposes in the Word. It is very illuminating, as it gives a /the key to understanding various parts of Scripture.
For example; when the Title "Zebaoth" is used, you can be sure you are reading about His purpose past or future; which nearly always is relative to His dealings with Israel; but in the future His dealings with Gentiles also.

4. THE DIVINE NAMES AND TITLES.

1. Elohim occurs 2.700 times. Its first occurrence connects it with creation, and give it its essential meaning as the Creator. It indicates His relation to mankind as His creatures (see note on 2 Chron. 18:31, where it stands in contrast with Jehovah as indicating covenant relationship). 'Elohim is God the Son, the living "WORD" with creature form to create (John 1:1. Col. 1:15-17. Rev. 3:14); and later, with human form to redeem (John 1:14). "Begotten of His Father before all worlds; born of His mother, in the world." In this creature form He appeared to the Patriarchs, a form not temporarily assumed. 'Elohim is indicated (as in A.V.) by ordinary small type, "God". See table on page 7.
4. Jehovah. While Elohim is God as the Creator of all things, Jehovah is the same God in covenant relation to those whom He has created (Cp. 2Chron. 18:31). Jehovah means the Eternal, the Immutable One, He Who WAS, and IS, and IS TO COME. The Divine definition is given in Gen. 21:33. He is especially, therefore, the God of Israel; and the God of those who are redeemed, and are thus now "in Christ". We can say "My God," but not "My Jehovah", for Jehovah is "MY God."
   
   Jehovah is indicated (as in A.V.) by small capital letters, "LORD"' and by "GOD" when it occurs in combination with Adonai, in which case LORD GOD = Adonai Jehovah. The name Jehovah is combined with ten other words, which form what are known as "the Jehovah Titles." in the Hebrew Canon (Ap. 1). All are noted in the margin, in all their occurrences:--
   JEHOVAH-JIREH = Jehovah will see, or provide. Gen. 22:14.
5. JEHOVAH-ROPHEKA = Jehovah that healeth thee. Ex. 15:26.
6. JEHOVAH-NISSI = Jehovah my banner. Ex. 17:15.
7. JEHOVAH-MeKADDISHKEM = Jehovah that doth sanctify you. Ex. 31:13. Lev. 20:8; 21:8; 22:32. Ezek. 20:12.
8. JEHOVAH-SHALOM = Jehovah [send] peace. Judg. 6:24.
9. JEHOVAH-ZeBA'OTH = Jehovah of hosts. 1Sam. 1:3, and frequently.
10. JEHOVAH-ZIDKENU = Jehovah our righteousness. Jer. 23:6; 33:16.
11. JEHOVAH-SHAMMAH = Jehovah is there. Ezek. 48:35.
12. JEHOVAH-ELYON = Jehovah most high. Ps. 7:17; 47:2; 97:9.
13. JEHOVAH-RO'I = Jehovah my Shepherd. Ps. 23:1.

We have seven of these, experimentally referred to, in Ps. 23, inasmuch as Jehovah, the "Good," "Great," and "Chief Shepherd," is engaged, in all the perfection of His attributes, on behalf of His sheep:--
In verse 1, we have No. 1 above.
In verse 2, we have No. 5.
In verse 3, we have Nos. 2 and 7.
In verse 4, we have No. 8.
In verse 5, we have Nos. 3 and 4.

[*]Jah is Jehovah in a special sense and relation. Jehovah as having BECOME our Salvation (first occ. Ex. 15:2), He Who IS, and WAS, and IS TO COME. It occurs 49 times (7 x 7. See Ap. 10). Compare Psalm 68. 4, 18.
[*]
[*]
[*]EL is essentially the Almighty, thought the word is never so rendered (see below, "Shaddai"). EL is Elohim in all His strength and power. It is rendered "God" as Elohim is, but El is God the Omnipotent. Elohim is God the Creator putting His omnipotence into operation. Eloah (see below) is God Who wills and orders all, and Who is to be the one object of the worship of His people. El is the God Who knows all (first occ. Gen. 14:18:22) and sees all (Gen. 16:13) and that performeth all things for His people (Ps. 57:2); and in Whom all the Divine attributes are concentrated.

El is indicated in this edition by type in large capital letters, thus: "GOD." It is sometimes transliterated in proper names Immanue-'el, Beth-'el, &c., where it is translated, as explained in the margin.
[*]
[*]
[*]Eloah is Elohim, Who is to be worshipped. Eloah is God in connection with His Will rather than His power. The first occurrence associates this name with worship (Deut. 32:15, 17). Hence it is the title used whenever the contrast (latent or expressed) is with false gods or idols. Eloah is essentially "the living God" in contrast to inanimate idols. Eloah is rendered "God", but we have indicated it by type thus: GOD.
[*]
[*]
[*]Elyon first occurs in Gen. 14:18 with El, and is rendered "the most high (God)". It is El and Elohim, not as the powerful Creator, but as "the possessor of heaven and earth." Hence the name is associated with Christ as the Son of "the Highest" (Luke 1:35). It is Elyon, as possessor of the earth, Who divides the nations "their inheritance". In Ps. 83:18, He is "over all the earth". The title occurs 36 times (6 x 6 or 62 See Ap. 10).

Elyon is the Dispenser of God's blessings in the earth; the blessings proceeding from a Priest Who is a King upon His throne (cp. Gen. 14:18-22 with Zech. 6:13; 14:9).
[*]
[*]
[*]Shaddai is in every instance translated "Almighty", and is indicated by small capital letters ("ALMIGHTY"). It is God (El), not as the source of strength, but of grace; not as Creator, but as the Giver. Shaddai is the All-bountiful. This title does not refer to His creative power, but to His power to supply all the needs of His people. Its first occurrence is in Gen. 17:1, and is used to show Abraham that He Who called him out to walk alone before Him could supply all his need. Even so it is the title used in 2Cor. 6:18, where we are cal 1000 led to "come out" in separation from the world. It is always used in connection with El (see above).
[*]
[*]
[*]Adon is one of the three titles (ADON, ADONAI, and ADONIM), all generally rendered "Lord"; but each has its own peculiar usage and association. They all denote headship in various aspects. They have to do with God as "over-lord."

1. Adon is the Lord as Ruler in the earth. We have indicated this in type by printing the preceding article or pronouns in small capitals, not because either are to be emphasized, but to distinguish the word "Lord" from Adonai, which is always so printed in the A.V.
4. Adonai is the Lord in His relation to the earth; and as carrying out His purposes of blessing in the earth. With this limitation it is almost equivalent to Jehovah. Indeed, it was from an early date so used, by associating the vowel points of the word Jehovah with Adon, thus converting Adon into Adonai. A list of 134 passages where this was deliberately done is preserved and given in the Massorah (107-115). (See Ap. 32) We have indicated these by printing the word like Jehovah, putting an asterisk, thus: LORD*.
7. Adonim is the plural of Adon, never used of man. Adonim carries with it all that Adon does, but in a greater and higher degree; and more especially as owner and proprietor. An Adon may rule others who do not belong to him. Hence (without the article) it is often used of men. But Adonim is the Lord Who rules His own. We have indicated it by type, thus: LORD.

The three may be thus briefly distinguished:--
Adon is the Lord as overlord or ruler.
Adonim is the Lord as owner.
Adonai is the Lord as blesser.

[*]
[*]The Types used to indicate the above titles, in the text, are as follows:--

• God = Elohim.
• GOD = Jehovah (in combination with Adonai, "Lord").
• GOD* = Jehovah in the Primitive Texts, altered by Sopherim to Elohim as the Printed Text. (See Ap. 32.)
• GOD = El.
• GOD = Eloah.
• LORD = Jehovah.
• THE LORD = Jah.
• LORD* = Jehovah in the Primitive Texts, altered by Sopherim to Adonai as in the Printed Text. (See Ap. 32.)
• Lord = Adonai.
• LORD = Adonim.
• ALMIGHTY = Shaddai.
• MOST HIGH = Elyon.

[*]
[*]The Combinations are indicated as follows:--
Adonai Jehovah = Lord GOD.

Jehovah Elohim = LORD God.

Elyon El = MOST HIGH GOD.
El Shaddai = GOD ALMIGHTY

Jack; the above list is courtesy of Dr. David Ginsburg and Dr. E. W. Bullinger It also lays to rest the erroneous teaching, negating the Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ!


Floyd: www.revelationsmessage.co.uk

 

[shturt678]

Floyd, on 10 May 2014 - 3:04 PM, said:

I wasn't espousing any perspective other than what Scripture says, so that "shturt678" could ARRIVE to his Rev. 13 doctrine, rather than simply pick a salient point and declare victory.

As such, I attempted to outline those distinctions between Rev. 12 Seven Diadems on Seven Heads, versus the Rev. 13 TEN Diadems on TEN Horns. So the question is, -- What Changed?



With Best Regards,
DD

OK; thanks DD.
Floyd.

Quote

Thank you again for your response, ie, wish I was on your team - you're coming out as an O.K. Christian the more I get to know you!

I always thought the Hebrew name Elohim is derived from a root found in the Arabic meaning (Semetic langauge of course) "to fear" or "to reverence." His omnipotence rouses man's reverence and holy fear rather than His agape, correct brother Floyd? IOW, it brings the Creator to man's notice rather as Elohim than from any other point of view.




Jack: the following are the various names of God (Elohim); depending on what He purposed/purposes in the Word. It is very illuminating, as it gives a /the key to understanding various parts of Scripture.
For example; when the Title "Zebaoth" is used, you can be sure you are reading about His purpose past or future; which nearly always is relative to His dealings with Israel; but in the future His dealings with Gentiles also.

4. THE DIVINE NAMES AND TITLES.

1. Elohim occurs 2.700 times. Its first occurrence connects it with creation, and give it its essential meaning as the Creator. It indicates His relation to mankind as His creatures (see note on 2 Chron. 18:31, where it stands in contrast with Jehovah as indicating covenant relationship). 'Elohim is God the Son, the living "WORD" with creature form to create (John 1:1. Col. 1:15-17. Rev. 3:14); and later, with human form to redeem (John 1:14). "Begotten of His Father before all worlds; born of His mother, in the world." In this creature form He appeared to the Patriarchs, a form not temporarily assumed. 'Elohim is indicated (as in A.V.) by ordinary small type, "God". See table on page 7
3. Jehovah. While Elohim is God as the Creator of all things, Jehovah is the same God in covenant relation to those whom He has created (Cp. 2Chron. 18:31). Jehovah means the Eternal, the Immutable One, He Who WAS, and IS, and IS TO COME. The Divine definition is given in Gen. 21:33. He is especially, therefore, the God of Israel; and the God of those who are redeemed, and are thus now "in Christ". We can say "My God," but not "My Jehovah", for Jehovah is "MY God."
   
   Jehovah is indicated (as in A.V.) by small capital letters, "LORD"' and by "GOD" when it occurs in combination with Adonai, in which case LORD GOD = Adonai Jehovah. The name Jehovah is combined with ten other words, which form what are known as "the Jehovah Titles." in the Hebrew Canon (Ap. 1). All are noted in the margin, in all their occurrences:--
   We have seven of these, experimentally referred to, in Ps. 23, inasmuch as Jehovah, the "Good," "Great," and "Chief Shepherd," is engaged, in all the perfection of His attributes, on behalf of His sheep:--
   In verse 1, we have No. 1 above.
   In verse 2, we have No. 5.
   In verse 3, we have Nos. 2 and 7.
   In verse 4, we have No. 8.
   In verse 5, we have Nos. 3 and 4.
   JEHOVAH-JIREH = Jehovah will see, or provide. Gen. 22:14.
4. JEHOVAH-ROPHEKA = Jehovah that healeth thee. Ex. 15:26.
5. JEHOVAH-NISSI = Jehovah my banner. Ex. 17:15.
6. JEHOVAH-MeKADDISHKEM = Jehovah that doth sanctify you. Ex. 31:13. Lev. 20:8; 21:8; 22:32. Ezek. 20:12.
7. JEHOVAH-SHALOM = Jehovah [send] peace. Judg. 6:24.
8. JEHOVAH-ZeBA'OTH = Jehovah of hosts. 1Sam. 1:3, and frequently.
9. JEHOVAH-ZIDKENU = Jehovah our righteousness. Jer. 23:6; 33:16.
10. JEHOVAH-SHAMMAH = Jehovah is there. Ezek. 48:35.
11. JEHOVAH-ELYON = Jehovah most high. Ps. 7:17; 47:2; 97:9.
12. JEHOVAH-RO'I = Jehovah my Shepherd. Ps. 23:1.

[*]Jah is Jehovah in a special sense and relation. Jehovah as having BECOME our Salvation (first occ. Ex. 15:2), He Who IS, and WAS, and IS TO COME. It occurs 49 times (7 x 7. See Ap. 10). Compare Psalm 68. 4, 18.
[*]
[*]
[*]EL is essentially the Almighty, thought the word is never so rendered (see below, "Shaddai"). EL is Elohim in all His strength and power. It is rendered "God" as Elohim is, but El is God the Omnipotent. Elohim is God the Creator putting His omnipotence into operation. Eloah (see below) is God Who wills and orders all, and Who is to be the one object of the worship of His people. El is the God Who knows all (first occ. Gen. 14:18:22) and sees all (Gen. 16:13) and that performeth all things for His people (Ps. 57:2); and in Whom all the Divine attributes are concentrated.

El is indicated in this edition by type in large capital letters, thus: "GOD." It is sometimes transliterated in proper names Immanue-'el, Beth-'el, &c., where it is translated, as explained in the margin.
[*]
[*]
[*]Eloah is Elohim, Who is to be worshipped. Eloah is God in connection with His Will rather than His power. The first occurrence associates this name with worship (Deut. 32:15, 17). Hence it is the title used whenever the contrast (latent or expressed) is with false gods or idols. Eloah is essentially "the living God" in contrast to inanimate idols. Eloah is rendered "God", but we have indicated it by type thus: GOD.
[*]
[*]
[*]Elyon first occurs in Gen. 14:18 with El, and is rendered "the most high (God)". It is El and Elohim, not as the powerful Creator, but as "the possessor of heaven and earth." Hence the name is associated with Christ as the Son of "the Highest" (Luke 1:35). It is Elyon, as possessor of the earth, Who divides the nations "their inheritance". In Ps. 83:18, He is "over all the earth". The title occurs 36 times (6 x 6 or 62 See Ap. 10).

Elyon is the Dispenser of God's blessings in the earth; the blessings proceeding from a Priest Who is a King upon His throne (cp. Gen. 14:18-22 with Zech. 6:13; 14:9).
[*]
[*]
[*]Shaddai is in every instance translated "Almighty", and is indicated by small capital letters ("ALMIGHTY"). It is God (El), not as the source of strength, but of grace; not as Creator, but as the Giver. Shaddai is the All-bountiful. This title does not refer to His creative power, but to His power to supply all the needs of His people. Its first occurrence is in Gen. 17:1, and is used to show Abraham that He Who called him out to walk alone before Him could supply all his need. Even so it is the title used in 2Cor. 6:18, where we are cal 1000 led to "come out" in separation from the world. It is always used in connection with El (see above).
[*]
[*]
[*]Adon is one of the three titles (ADON, ADONAI, and ADONIM), all generally rendered "Lord"; but each has its own peculiar usage and association. They all denote headship in various aspects. They have to do with God as "over-lord."

The three may be thus briefly distinguished:--
Adon is the Lord as overlord or ruler.
Adonim is the Lord as owner.
Adonai is the Lord as blesser.

1. Adon is the Lord as Ruler in the earth. We have indicated this in type by printing the preceding article or pronouns in small capitals, not because either are to be emphasized, but to distinguish the word "Lord" from Adonai, which is always so printed in the A.V.
4. Adonai is the Lord in His relation to the earth; and as carrying out His purposes of blessing in the earth. With this limitation it is almost equivalent to Jehovah. Indeed, it was from an early date so used, by associating the vowel points of the word Jehovah with Adon, thus converting Adon into Adonai. A list of 134 passages where this was deliberately done is preserved and given in the Massorah (107-115). (See Ap. 32) We have indicated these by printing the word like Jehovah, putting an asterisk, thus: LORD*.
7. Adonim is the plural of Adon, never used of man. Adonim carries with it all that Adon does, but in a greater and higher degree; and more especially as owner and proprietor. An Adon may rule others who do not belong to him. Hence (without the article) it is often used of men. But Adonim is the Lord Who rules His own. We have indicated it by type, thus: LORD.

[*]
[*]The Types used to indicate the above titles, in the text, are as follows:--

• God = Elohim.
• GOD = Jehovah (in combination with Adonai, "Lord").
• GOD* = Jehovah in the Primitive Texts, altered by Sopherim to Elohim as the Printed Text. (See Ap. 32.)
• GOD = El.
• GOD = Eloah.
• LORD = Jehovah.
• THE LORD = Jah.
• LORD* = Jehovah in the Primitive Texts, altered by Sopherim to Adonai as in the Printed Text. (See Ap. 32.)
• Lord = Adonai.
• LORD = Adonim.
• ALMIGHTY = Shaddai.
• MOST HIGH = Elyon.

[*]
[*]The Combinations are indicated as follows:--
Adonai Jehovah = Lord GOD.

Jehovah Elohim = LORD God.

Elyon El = MOST HIGH GOD.
El Shaddai = GOD ALMIGHTY

Jack; the above list is courtesy of Dr. David Ginsburg and Dr. E. W. Bullinger It also lays to rest the erroneous teaching, negating the Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ!


Floyd: www.revelationsmessage.co.uk

Thank you again for caring! We are so far apart?

Gen.1:1, Elohim is a potential plural guarding against going too far if one says that the term has no connection with the truth of the Holy Trinity.

Gen.1:2, "Spirit of God" is to be viewed as a definite noun due to "Elohim" is without a doubt a definite noun, ie, basic Hebrew syntax, ie, rules out any divine spirit for sure. Ie, the "Holy Spirit," the 3rd Person of the Holy Trinity.

Gen.1:3, "And God said" shows the manner how God worked, ie, by His Word - Heb.11:3, Col.1:16. We know who the Word is in light of Jn.1:1, ie, 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity.

Old Jack,

btw one cannot but agape our Lord God-man Jesus Christ.

 

[Floyd]

Thank you again for caring! We are so far apart?

Gen.1:1, Elohim is a potential plural guarding against going too far if one says that the term has no connection with the truth of the Holy Trinity.

Gen.1:2, "Spirit of God" is to be viewed as a definite noun due to "Elohim" is without a doubt a definite noun, ie, basic Hebrew syntax, ie, rules out any divine spirit for sure. Ie, the "Holy Spirit," the 3rd Person of the Holy Trinity.

Gen.1:3, "And God said" shows the manner how God worked, ie, by His Word - Heb.11:3, Col.1:16. We know who the Word is in light of Jn.1:1, ie, 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity.

Old Jack,

btw one cannot but agape our Lord God-man Jesus Christ.

As you say Jack!
Floyd.