How can anyone fall for the errors of Calvinism ?

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Scott Downey

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Only in the Lord Jesus, can you have some sense of liberty without oppression, but not to indulge the flesh.
You are not free to sin you are freed from sin.

2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Galatians 5:13
For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
 

Behold

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People are slaves (of sin)
A slavery of the mind and spirit.

Paul teaches that the reason a Believer has become controlled by one of the "CULTS".. .like Calvinism, or Hyper-Calvinism, or Mormonism, or JW... is because..

= "WHO.. has BEWITCHED you, that you no longer obey the TRUTH" ...(To obey the Truth is to BELIEVE IT)... so, when what you believe is not TRUE, yet you USE to believe the Truth...

That is what Paul means .. and He says that a PERSON.... (John Calvin) for example, or followers of Calvin who created (TULIP) Hyper Calvinism, have deceived you, and now you believe their lies (theology) and you "no longer obey the Truth". (Believe it).

Hebrews 13:9 explains that a man made "doctrine of Devils" has captured you....

So, that is what Calvinism does... that is what Mormonism does... and JW... and Mary Baker Eddie, and any of the man made "doctrines of devils", does to you.
 

FaithWillDo

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So much babble.
No scripture.

Total misunderstanding of the NT.

Could you show FROM SCRIPTURE that man is not free to choose.
Can you show us that man DOES NOT have free will....
since every teaching of the NT shows that man does have free will.

Since Adam had the free will to choose to obey God or not,,,
please show WHEN this free will was taken away.
Dear GodsGrace,
Here are a few scriptures:

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Deut 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you a heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, thou appointest peace to us, for, all our works also thou hast wrought for us.

Isa 44:18 They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, it is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore, hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


2Tim 1:9 who did save us, and did call with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, that was given to us in Christ Jesus, before the times of the ages…

That should be enough scriptures to convince you that mankind does not have a free will ability, but only if your truth comes from the teachings of God's Word.

Joe
 

Behold

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Dear GodsGrace,
Here are a few scriptures:

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Deut 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you a heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, thou appointest peace to us, for, all our works also thou hast wrought for us.

Isa 44:18 They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, it is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore, hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


2Tim 1:9 who did save us, and did call with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, that was given to us in Christ Jesus, before the times of the ages…

That should be enough scriptures to convince you that mankind does not have a free will ability, but only if your truth comes from the teachings of God's Word.

Joe

Your verses are not connected to why a person Trusts in Christ.

There is one verse, that teaches that once we are "in Christ", that the Foreknowledge of God, has predestined us to become more..

There is another verse, that is saying to someone that God can do what He wants, as He's God, but Its not saying that God forced anyone To believe in Jesus as the Hyper-Calvinist deceived teach.

So, you posted a lot of random verses, .. meaningless to the discussion, as that is what you do most offen... @FaithWillDo
 

FaithWillDo

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Being born again is why a person can begin to discern the scriptures.
Dear Behold,
But when is a person "born again"?

The new birth only happens after Christ (by His own choosing) has given an Elect person both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit, followed by judgment. This is called "conversion" and is when the new birth occurs.

After a person is given the Early Rain of the Spirit, they will have a "measure of faith" but they will remain spiritually blind, carnally minded and unconverted. In this condition, they will have faith to believe in Christ and to understand Christ's physical work that took Him to the cross but little else. The spiritual teachings of the New Covenant will remain blurred to them. It is only after a person is converted that their spiritual blindness is healed so that the truth of Christ's spiritual teachings will open up to them.

Consider what Christ teaches below:

Mark 8:15 And he charged them, saying, take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. 16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, it is because we have no bread. 17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? 18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? 19 When I broke the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. 20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. 21 And he said unto them, how is it that ye do not understand?

In the verses above, Christ is giving His disciples a lesson on the spiritual language of God's Word - His language:

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

At this point in time (before they were converted at Pentecost), the disciples had received the Early Rain of the Spirit but had not yet received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain of the Spirit). And because of such, they were still spiritually blind and could not understand the spiritual language of Christ.

Christ ends His comments above by asking the disciples this question: “How is it that ye do not understand?” No response from the disciples is recorded in scripture. However, Christ answers His own question in the very next four verses.

Mark 8:22 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

Since Christ is the Word of God, He teaches us not only through His words which are recorded in scripture but also by the things that He did. In answering the question that He proposed to the disciples in verse 21, Christ goes to Bethsaida and gives us His answer in type by the healing of a blind man.

In verse 23, Christ leads a blind man out of the city. Once outside the city, Christ places spit on his eyes and touches him with His hands. These actions occur as the blind man is looking down which symbolizes the carnal aspect of His healing. Christ does not have to tell the blind man to look down, the blind man just does it naturally. The spit (water) symbolizes the blind man receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit with its accompanying vision (carnal understanding). This event represents the time when an unbeliever is called out from the world and enters the church.

After Christ asks the man what he could see, the man looks up and says that he could see men "walking as trees". "Walking as trees" is a spiritual symbol for called out believers who walk by sight (the flesh, carnal nature) rather than by faith & the Spirit. The man’s blindness was not total any longer but he was still very near-sighted and could only see Christ carnally. Paul stated that this near-sighted type of understanding will only allow a believer to see "Christ and Him crucified" (1Cor 2:2). This means that the new believer can see Christ's physical work that He did under the Old Covenant, but Christ's spiritual work that He is presently doing under the New Covenant will remain blurred.

This first healing of the blind man reflects the true spiritual condition of a new believer when they first enter the church. At this time, the believer is left carnally minded and spiritually near-sighted. They can see a little, but that only opens the door to Satan's carnally based deceptions - deceptions which each new believer will readily accept due to their carnal nature still being in control of them (Mat 12:43-45, Mat 24:24 & Luke 5:39).

For a carnally minded and spiritually blind believer (Early Rain only), the Old Wine still tastes better than the New Wine:

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desires the new: for he says, The old is better.

The Old Wine represents the Old Covenant which is based on the works of man. The New Wine represents the New Covenant which is solely based on the spiritual works of Christ.

Peter says that this near-sighted condition is the same as being blind:

2Pet 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Peter makes this statement because the believers to whom he was addressing were mixing their own works with faith. They were still preferring the Old Wine.

In the final verse of the story of the blind man, Christ lays His hands upon the man’s eyes again, but as He does, Christ has the man look up instead of down. This second healing represents the Latter Rain of the Spirit when true spiritual vision is given to a believer. The man’s upward gaze represents the spiritual aspect of the healing in contrast to the carnal aspect when the blind man was looking down at the earth.

From that moment onward, we now know that the blind man is a type for a called AND chosen believer who has received both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit (James 5:7-8). The man has been given eyes that can see spiritually ("drawn from the breasts" Isa 28:9). From his new ability to understand God's Word, he will then come out from Satan's deceptions and will begin walking by faith. He will be included in the resurrection of the First Fruits and will receive the reward of life during the ages.

Joe
 

FaithWillDo

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Your verses are not connected to why a person Trusts in Christ.

There is one verse, that teaches that once we are "in Christ", that the Foreknowledge of God, has predestined us to become more..

There is another verse, that is saying to someone that God can do what He wants, as He's God, but Its not saying that God forced anyone To believe in Jesus as the Hyper-Calvinist deceived teach.

So, you posted a lot of random verses, .. meaningless to the discussion, as that is what you do most offen... @FaithWillDo
Dear Behold,
A person can only have faith (and trust) in Christ after Christ (from His own choosing) gives the person the Early Rain of the Spirit.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

You do not believe this verse above. You believe that a person has a free will ability to choose or not choose to have faith in Christ. God's Word says that this is not true.

Scripture even says this:

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man (that's any unbeliever) receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The only way that a person will not think that the things of the Spirit are not foolishness is for Christ to come to them (because of His grace) and freely give them the Spirit. This is the only way a person can ever have faith in Christ.

Also, Christ does not force anyone to accept Him. When Christ gives a person the Spirit, the Spirit will change their heart and mind so that all they want to do is to accept Him as Lord.

Your beliefs do not come from God's Word.

Joe
 

Behold

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Dear Behold,
But when is a person "born again"?

Thanks for the question.
I never read your redundant cut and paste posts..... as i realized quite a while back, that you can't do anything but cut and paste.

So, i'll explain the answer your question...


1.) You have an unbeliever.

They are a sinner, a LOST Sinner., as defined by the NEW Testament.
Every unbeliever is a lost sinner.... all of us were. because "all have sinned, there is none righteous, no not one".

"Jesus came into the world to SAVE SINNERS"......not just the elect or the predestined or the "limited atonement".. group, as lying Hyper Calvinism (TULIP) (5 point) Teaches.

"Christ came to seek and SAVE = the LOST".

Everyone is a LOST sinner..., .until they become a CHRISTian.

2.) Now, This Lost Sinner, comes into contact with the Gospel... that is..."Jesus died for you...On The Cross.... to forgive your sin"...

This shows them, they are lost, needing forgiveness, and Jesus is for them, exactly that...

How they come to know this is TRUE, what leads them ...can be a Christian Movie showing them, or a Christian song.
It can be some gospel tract... it can be a family member, or a Preacher in a Church.
It can be "behold" on this very Forum.

Faith comes by hearing the Gospel... not by being made to believe.

There are so many ways that God is able to show a LOST SINNER the TRUTH .....regarding their LOST SINNER situation, that only JESUS can resolve for them.

3.) So, that is THE Holy Spirit that is showing them.....in their heart.....and this is called "coming to the Knowledge OF... THE TRUTH".... and Jesus is "the Truth"...John 14:6.
They come to the knowledge of HIM, and what He did, = inside them they get this revelation.. and that is the work of the Holy Spirit.
He is the Spirit of Truth, and HE REVEALS The Truth, who is JESUS.

4.) And now, at this point.........WILL they GIVE God their Faith in Christ?... or not.

Their Free Will is now in process...., and they will CHOOSE to believe, or they will not, at this time.

If they do Believe, then God takes the Blood and Death of Jesus and deals with all their sin.......Forgives them eternally, with the Cross of Christ, because "JESUS is the ONE TIME.... ETERNAL SACRIFICE for Sin"..

A.)
And now BEING FORGIVEN.. they are sinless, and this allows HOLY GOD< to join Himself to them in Spiritual Union, which is to become BORN.. Again by the Holy Spirit.... "in Christ", as "One with God".
 

marks

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Your beliefs do not come from God's Word.
What does this mean?

John 1:9 KJV
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Or this?

Titus 2:11 KJV
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

I would answer that John 1:9 is telling us that Jesus is the true light, and that He gives that light to every human being.

I would answer that Titus 2:11 is telling us that God's grace that bring salvation is shown to every human being.

Do you agree?

Much love!
 

FaithWillDo

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Thanks for the question.
I never read your redundant cut and paste posts..... as i realized quite a while back, that you can't do anything but cut and paste.

So, i'll explain the answer your question...


1.) You have an unbeliever.

They are a sinner, a LOST Sinner., as defined by the NEW Testament.
Every unbeliever is a lost sinner.... all of us were. because "all have sinned, there is none righteous, no not one".

"Jesus came into the world to SAVE SINNERS"......not just the elect or the predestined or the "limited atonement".. group, as lying Hyper Calvinism (TULIP) (5 point) Teaches.

"Christ came to seek and SAVE = the LOST".

Everyone is a LOST sinner..., .until they become a CHRISTian.

2.) Now, This Lost Sinner, comes into contact with the Gospel... that is..."Jesus died for you...On The Cross.... to forgive your sin"...

This shows them, they are lost, needing forgiveness, and Jesus is for them, exactly that...

How they come to know this is TRUE, what leads them ...can be a Christian Movie showing them, or a Christian song.
It can be some gospel tract... it can be a family member, or a Preacher in a Church.

Faith comes by hearing the Gospel... not by being made to believe.

There are so many ways that God is able to show a LOST SINNER the TRUTH .....regarding their LOST SINNER situation, that only JESUS can resolve for them.

3.) So, that is Holy Spirit that is showing them.....in their heart.....and this is called "coming to the Knowledge OF... THE TRUTH".... and Jesus is "the Truth"...John 14:6.
They come to the knowledge of HIM, and what He did, = inside them they get this revelation.. and that is the work of the Holy Spirit.
He is the Spirit of Truth, and HE REVEALS The Truth, who is JESUS.

4.) And now, at this point.........WILL they GIVE God their Faith in Christ?... or not.

Free Will is now up and running, and they will CHOOSE to believe, or they will not, at this time.

If they do Believe, then God takes the Blood and Death of Jesus and deals with all their sin.......Forgives them eternally, with the Cross of Christ, because "JESUS is the ONE TIME.... ETERNAL SACRIFICE for Sin"..

A.)
And now BEING FORGIVEN.. they are sinless, and this allows HOLY GOD< to join Himself to them in Spiritual Union, which is to become BORN.. Again by the Holy Spirit.... "in Christ", as "One with God".
Dear Behold,
Scripture does not support what you stated.

When an unbeliever is presented the Gospel, they are going to think it is foolishness unless Christ has given them the Holy Spirit beforehand.

Also, if I cut and paste anything into my posts, they are only things that I have written myself. If you are not reading what I post, there is no point in having a discussion with you.

Joe
 

FaithWillDo

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What does this mean?

John 1:9 KJV
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Or this?

Titus 2:11 KJV
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

I would answer that John 1:9 is telling us that Jesus is the true light, and that He gives that light to every human being.

I would answer that Titus 2:11 is telling us that God's grace that bring salvation is shown to every human being.

Do you agree?

Much love!
Dear marks,

Here is John 1:9 with a proper translation:

John 1:9 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.

Christ is the light (truth) of the world and every man will see His truth - but only after Christ reveals Himself to them. For this to occur, Christ must first give the Spirit to them. Until He gives a person this free gift, they will remain too carnally minded to see the Light.

This verse below testifies to when the Light will shine upon a person:

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

A person can only "see" Christ after they have been given the Holy Spirit. And since all mankind will see Christ, all mankind will be saved by Christ.

Here is Titus 2:11 with a proper translation:

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

The verse is not saying that Christ has already appeared all men - but it does say that Christ will bring salvation to all men just as many other scriptures do.

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Rom 5:18 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. 19 For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous.

Joe
 

marks

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Christ is the light (truth) of the world and every man will see His truth - but only after Christ reveals Himself to them. For this to occur, Christ must first give the Spirit to them. Until He gives a person this free gift, they will remain too carnally minded to see the Light.
So you include a hidden caveat. No good! That's adding to Scripture. It's simply true as written.

Much love!
 

marks

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Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
1730844483630.png
Titus 2:11 LITV
For the saving grace of God has appeared to all men,

Titus 2:11 YLT
For the saving grace of God was manifested to all men,

On what basis do you claim your translation better than these?

You've changed it, and I don't agree that your translation is correct. If you can show good reason, I'm listening. But I'm not seeing it.

Much love!
 

marks

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A person can only "see" Christ after they have been given the Holy Spirit. And since all mankind will see Christ, all mankind will be saved by Christ.
Right. You are universalist. Which means you will be reading the Bible in a very different way than I do. I suppose you might consider me as being "too literal".

Much love!
 

FaithWillDo

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Right. You are universalist. Which means you will be reading the Bible in a very different way than I do. I suppose you might consider me as being "too literal".

Much love!
Dear marks,
No, the scriptures that I just posted can be literally understood and they clearly say that Christ will save all mankind. You just don't have enough faith to believe them.

Also, you don't understand conversion. Conversion requires the death of any person who sins and has become a child of the Devil. This is all mankind. For this reason, John 3:18 says that all mankind is "condemned already". Because mankind is condemned already, the only way for Christ to save mankind is to give each and every person who has ever lived a new birth as a child of God. In this age, Christ is only saving the people who have been chosen from the foundation of the world for an early salvation. They are few in number. The balance of mankind will be saved in the final age as Christ is judging them in the Lake of Fire (a symbol for judgment, it is not literal fire).

This is how Christ will judge them:

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Christ will show His mercy to the lost by giving them the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit which will give them faith and a new birth. The newly born child of God will then be gathered to heaven. The child of the devil will remain under judgment until he is destroyed. This is conversion.

When you read scriptures like the one below, it is only referring to the death of the child of the devil that occurs just after the person has been given a new birth as a child of God.

Isa 66:16 For by fire (judgment) and by his sword (God's Word) will the LORD plead with all flesh (all mankind): and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

Christ is not some monster who torments in literal fire most of mankind for all eternity.

This is the Christ that I know:

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Christ blesses His enemies by converting them into children of God. It is for this purpose that His Father sent Him into the world:

1 John 3:8 He that practices sin is of the devil; for from the beginning the devil sins. To this end the Son of God has been manifested, that he might undo the works of the devil.

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.


Since Christ is mankind's God who is all-powerful, He will accomplish all that He has said He will do.

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do.

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?


This is the light (truth) that will someday shine on all mankind. If you are not seeing this Christ now, you will someday.

Joe
 

marks

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You just don't have enough faith to believe them.
No. I happen to believe the Bible teaches something different than you. Don't just fob it off like, Oh, you just don't have enough faith.

Much love!
 

Dan Clarkston

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This is how Christ will judge them:

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

You must be one of those cherry pickers that does not accept the whole counsel of God...

2 Thessalonians 1:7,8
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ
:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
 

GodsGrace

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Dear GodsGrace,
Here are a few scriptures:

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Deut 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you a heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, thou appointest peace to us, for, all our works also thou hast wrought for us.

Isa 44:18 They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, it is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore, hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


2Tim 1:9 who did save us, and did call with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, that was given to us in Christ Jesus, before the times of the ages…

That should be enough scriptures to convince you that mankind does not have a free will ability, but only if your truth comes from the teachings of God's Word.

Joe
Faith,,,I don't turn away from scripture because I'm CERTAIN that it states what every other Christian denomination believes it does except for the reformed.....to say nothing of the fact that this idea did not even exist before the 5th century when a converted Manechaen decided to bring some of his gnostic ideas along with him to Christianity....your hero....Augustine.

You're going to have to pick 3 or maybe 4 to which I could respond.
I'm not here to play verse ping pong.
The NT would be nice since Jesus is the ULTIMATE revelation of God.
What did Jesus have to say about free will?

Will respond when you give a REASONABLE reply to which a person CAN respond.
 

GodsGrace

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You must be one of those cherry pickers that does not accept the whole counsel of God...

2 Thessalonians 1:7,8
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ
:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
This is actually a great post Dan Clarkson.
Why?
Because it speaks of the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

In Calvinist theology, there is NO GOSPEL.
There is no GOOD NEWS.

I've asked a couple of times now for a reformed believer to explain THE GOOD NEWS
in the gospel...but so far, no reply - and I'm not really expecting one.

Let's see if @FaithWillDo is intellectually honest and posts 2 or 3 verses from the NT so we could go over
what they REALLY mean...

(carpet bombing never works in a conversation).
 
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