How are we to reckon ourselves as being dead to sin?

[Johann]

You have really large cut and pastes. It’s not much of a dialogue but posting previous materials which I’ve already read from previous discussions.

You have a problem with cut and pastes?
Faith not a gift?

Php 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

It's all of God, none of self-that no one may boast brother.

 

[ChristisGod]

You have a problem with cut and pastes?
Faith not a gift?

Php 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

It's all of God, none of self-that no one may boast brother.

Those above are already believers, born again . I’m talking about salvific faith .

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Yes, that is how we obey the law

But that is not how we are born again, saved. made alive, have the penalty of sin removed.

The most important decision you will make in your life is this one decision. Your eternity depends on it.

You trying to be good. and loving people will not save you..

Paul said the Lord had delivered him out of every evil, even deliverance out of the mouth of a lion. If you look at the example in Christ, and Christ in Paul… then you would know the Voice. It is unmistakably unique from any other Author Voice. Paul was not trying to earn salvation. But seeking Him First. He finished the course set before him. The joy set before him to finish the race. “You are my rejoicing in Christ.” “You are my fruit” in and by Him. Death works in us, yet Life works in you.” “Our power towards you is not weak but works Mighty in you” . Spend your whole life trying to secure “deliver us from evil” and miss Paul telling them “do no evil” even though I be as a reprobate in your presence. “Lord deliver me from evil.” Having confidence in God to deliver right then ..in their doing no wrong upon their brother. “Even this I pray, that you be made perfect. So what if I am weak, if you be made strong in Him in my weakness.”

 

[Ritajanice]

It's all of God, none of self-that no one may boast brother.

My question is, how can we have faith in God, Without Him giving it to us through the Holy Spirit?

How can we muster up faith in our own human understanding?

My belief is, we can’t....

 

[ChristisGod]

What is happening here is many are either wittingly or unwittingly promoting Calvinism . The doctrine of election , predestination , limited atonement and irresistible grace. It’s happening with salvific faith given to some not all which is Monergism. This teaching comes from the reformation. Synergism is the biblical model where God calls and convicts and man responds by faith in the gospel.

 

[Johann]

Those above are already believers, born again . I’m talking about salvific faith .

Picture Lazarus dead interred in a tomb-did he have any salvific faith?

 

[ChristisGod]

Picture Lazarus dead interred in a tomb-did he have any salvific faith?

Another Calvinists analogy that fails . I used it for decades myself. Should I show you how many of the spiritually dead can and do respond in scripture? Jesus proves it over and over in the gospels that the dead( unsaved ) unregenerate can respond .

 

[Ritajanice]

NET
The unbeliever does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him. And he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
NIRV
The person without the Spirit doesn’t accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. These things are foolish to them. They can’t understand them. In fact, such things can’t be understood without the Spirit’s help.
NIV
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
NIVUK
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

 

[ChristisGod]

Picture Lazarus dead interred in a tomb-did he have any salvific faith?

Adam who was “spiritually “dead hid from God in the garden and was able to communicate with God and understand Him. In the day you eat you shall surely die. So adam sinned and was spiritually dead and yet could communicate with God and understand God. “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.” (Genesis 3:10)

Luke 16:27-31 -“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Above we see that Jesus declared the physical dead and spiritual dead can respond to spiritual things. The dead spiritual/physical dead man is pleading for his own brother’s life.

Jesus declares in John 5:25, “An hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.” Here Jesus says the spiritually dead can and will hear him

In Mark 2:17 Jesus said, “"It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." The sick/spiritually dead can hear and understand Jesus- the sinner who is dead in their sins can understand.

In Romans 1 we read of the spiritually dead that they can perceive God and that Gods handiwork is self-evident to them and that the things of God are clearly seen by them so that they are without excuse.



Romans 1:20- For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.”

 

[Johann]

How can we muster up faith in our own human understanding?

My belief is, we can’t....

I enjoy your reasoning-and you have answered your question.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I think I have posted enough on this topic today @Ritajanice and still bushwhacked since I went to bed at 3 o clock this morning.

Stay strong in Christ Jesus.
Johann.

 

[CadyandZoe]

we should take this calvinist debate to another place.. We are discussing important stuff here I do not think we need the distraction

Don't characterize it as Calvinist then. Either an interpretation is true or false.

 

[Ritajanice]

I think I have posted enough on this topic today @Ritajanice and still bushwhacked since I went to bed at 3 o clock this morning

I agree, no point going round in circles, enjoy the rest of your day, it’s 17:46 pm here in the UK, off to make supper...I must say I have thoroughly enjoyed the discussion.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Brother-with me you need to use and work with the Scriptures-any Scripture references re "we experience them as a potential reality UNTIL the moment God actually ACTUALIZES them?"

I am working with the scriptures. I am reacting to the verse you cited. In what sense do we "have" eternal life if the promise of eternal life isn't actualized until the resurrection?

 

[ChristisGod]

I am working with the scriptures. I am reacting to the verse you cited. In what sense do we "have" eternal life if the promise of eternal life isn't actualized until the resurrection?

I have answered this question several times I will await his response . Good question !

 

[CadyandZoe]

Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Notice what comes first

1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.


John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.

John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.

John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.

Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.

Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.

Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.

Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.

See how scripture is consistent when you read it objectively, without bias ?


conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order

1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel
4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life


hope this helps !!!

Where you see cause and effect, I see coincidence.

 

[ChristisGod]

Where you see cause and effect, I see coincidence.

I see no coincidences in scripture. Coincidence leaves things to chance and not God. :)

 

[ChristisGod]

You have a problem with cut and pastes?
Faith not a gift?

Php 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

It's all of God, none of self-that no one may boast brother.

Do you agree with this from Dr Wallace ?



Exegesis Definition: Exegesis essentially means using the words of the text in Scripture, through the lens of their original context, to determine their intent. In other words, if one analyzes Scripture exegetically, they won’t come to the text with any conclusions.



They let the text itself reveal what the writer is revealing to the reader. By doing this, we don’t read anything into Scripture that wasn’t there before, and we study the meaning of the passage that was intended for a specific audience.



Eisegesis Definition: Eisegesis means reading into the text with a preconceived notion we may have. This can often mean coming to the Scripture with a biased cultural lens that didn’t exist during the time the Bible was written. Of course, theologians frown upon this approach because it isn’t rooted in Scripture.



At its worst, it can be used to twist Scripture to assert a certain belief. Politicians or other leaders may take a Bible verse out of context and interpret it using their own biased perspective to justify implementing a policy.



Hermeneutics Definition: Hermeneutics goes somewhat hand in hand with exegesis. Hermeneutics is more concerned about how you interpret a passage (if you choose to do one process versus another), and exegesis means actually researching and discovering the meaning behind the text. Usually, theologians pair hermeneutics with exegesis because you cannot have one without the other. Hermeneutics is the study of the general principles of biblical interpretation. For both Jews and Christians throughout their histories, the primary purpose of hermeneutics, and of the exegetical methods employed in interpretation, has been to discover the truths and values expressed in the Bible.



Principles of Bible Interpretation from Bible.org



Principle 1: Interpretation must be based on the author’s intention of meaning and not the reader.

Principle 2: Interpretations must be done in the context of the passage. What does the following mean?

Principle 3: Interpret the Bible literally (or normally) allowing for normal use of figurative language

Principle 4: Use the Bible to help interpret itself. Interpret difficult passages with clear ones. This is sometimes called the law of non-contradiction

Principle 5: Interpretation must be distinguished from application. While there is one interpretation that is historical, there are many applications that can be carried over to our modern context

Principle 6: Be sensitive to distinctions between Israel and the church and Old Covenant and New Covenant eras/requirements.

Principle 7: Be sensitive to the type of literature you are in. The Bible contains many different types of literature: law, narrative, wisdom, poetry, gospel, parable, epistle, and apocalyptic. Each of these types of literature has specific features that must be considered when interpreting a text

Lesson 6: Principles of Biblical Interpretation | Bible.org

This lesson in Core Faith takes a look at how to understand Scripture. Since a text means what the author intended it to mean care must be taken to accurately understand that original meaning.

bible.org

 

[amigo de christo]

The fruit of the spirit only occurs in believers who are walking in the spirit who are filled with the spirit. The fruit of the spirit is post salvation.

I just a child but this i do know . ever wonder WHY
a teaching would occur that would ever lead folks to some kind of hope without having to had BELIEVED IN CHRIST .
I see this and i see through it . The simple point i am making is
WHEN CHRIST , the apostels walked , HOW COME THEY WERE SO HUGE ON reminding folks they had to BELIEVE
and yet so many no longer really focus on that , rather they focus on some kind of hope that wont even point too
or remind folks of the DIRE NEED TO BELIEVE . Exactly .
Our whole hearts message on ANYTHING we teach or expound on SHOULD HAVE ALWAYS BEEN FOCUSED
on the DIRE NEED TO HAVE BELIEVED ON CHRIST . ME IS GONNA STICK TO THAT .
Cause without that , no matter how much truths one might try and say , ITS ALL VAIN if one BELIEVETH NOT ON THE CHRIST OF GOD .
This world , this all inclusive world gonna call me a hater for that .
But tis they who have forgotten the very words of CHRIST , and of the apostels they so often claim they follow .
The TRUE CHRIST , and the true apostels , SEEMED to make the MESSAGE POINT on the DIRE NEED TO BELIEVE ON CHRIST .
SO how come so many no longer do proclaim or even believe on that very simple message . AS FOR ME
and as for the lambs , ITS BELIEVE YE IN JESUS that i am gonna continue onwards IN .
By grace , by grace alone I KNOW of only ONE NAME that saves and that YE MUST BELIEVE ON HIM . JESUS CHRIST .
Many preach a POWER they know nothing of . THE POWER OF GOD is CHRIST JESUS .
Me thinks folks might also want to read acts chapter twenty six . WHAT DID JESUS tell paul .
What power did JESUS speak about . Ex and cactly . To deliver them from the POWER of .........................
SATAN . from darkness unto light . PAUL preached BELIEVE YE IN JESUS . FOR ONLY HE ALONE
can deliver one from the darkness , from satan . I know i sound like a record on skip that just keeps parotting
the same thing over and over again . SO BE IT . I made my choice and i count the cost . ME IS GONNA POINT TO CHRIST ALONE .

 

[CadyandZoe]

And receiving Jesus means believing on Him and receiving Him as Lord and Savior. So first comes the believing, and then comes the New Birth. There can be no regeneration without the gift of the Holy Spirit, and there can be no such gift without FIRST there being repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

In my view, repentance, belief, faith and etc. are all gifts of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Johann]

Another Calvinists analogy that fails . I used it for decades myself. Should I show you how many of the spiritually dead can and do respond in scripture? Jesus proves it over and over in the gospels that the dead( unsaved ) unregenerate can respond

Right, now you want to get personal-I actually expected that, and I have said, over and over again-I am the one that is in need of correction, and would welcome it-but if you want to "label" me then there is nothing further to discuss.
I have given you 4 video clips on Ephesians 2:8-unbiased-straightforward exegeses, and you dismissed them, in my posts, you haven't even take the time, or effort, to read them-do you want to IMPOSE upon me what you believe, or do I take the Scriptures, relying on the Holy Spirit to teach me and to be very selective in what I am posting?

I have a couple of brothers and a sister I am holding myself accountable to, very few, but I treasure them-

you say you know Koine Greek? Then why don't you understand where I come from?