How are we to reckon ourselves as being dead to sin?

[ChristisGod]

Post saving? Then how is saving Faith outside or before saving?

You are conflating/equivocating.

Saving faith, when one first hears and receives/believes the gospel under conviction of the Holy Spirit which God uses to draw all men unto Himself is mans responsibility to respond to Gods call by faith/trust in the life, death, burial and resurrection of Jesus and that He died to their sins according to the scriptures. Its Gods mean to salvation, its His provision that is freely given to all who believe. That is the consistent message in the N.T. Jesus never taught once that He gives anyone faith but He did mention numerous times that their faith saved them , that He had never seen just great faith is some. Salvation is given by God but He does not give faith to the unbeliever. God convicts them of their sins and need for a Savior ( Jesus Christ ) though the gospel and man responds either in faith to be saved or unbelief to be condemned. Jesus taught this exact thing in John 3:16-18

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Is saving Faith a fruit of the Spirit of God? Is saving Faith born (comes out from, sprouts, grows, bears fruit) of God? That is what I am asking? Does Faith a part of the fruit of the Spirt of God …save? Notice “a part of” the fruit where he said abide in the Vine? No? yes?

Fruit of the spirit is given to those who receive the spirit.. It is one of the gifts God gives to his children.

A non child of God does not have the spirit. so no, saving faith would not be a fruit of the spirit in that sense..

it is the work of God we believe (john 6) in that God draws us, Gods reveals himself. and God helps us to understand the gospel.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The fruit of the spirit only occurs in believers who are walking in the spirit who are filled with the spirit. The fruit of the spirit is post salvation.

Have to wonder really long about the pathetic wasteful servant who wasn’t faithful at all, wasting all that he had on the unfruitful works of darkness. Faithful in nothing. If he being unfaithful…who would give unto him —the unfaithful man —the riches of God? This man that beats his chest saying—I’ve done nothing to deserve it—I haven’t been faithful in anything! But lost it all. I drove all into the ground and am nothing but a poor steward and having nothing left to give, I am too ashamed to lift up my head. big question…Who will give to the weak vessel not faithful in any thing noble…to show it is the power of God (His faithfulness) that saves and not of men?

 

[ChristisGod]

Have to wonder really long about the pathetic wasteful servant who wasn’t faithful at all, wasting all that he had on the unfruitful works of darkness. Faithful in nothing. If he being unfaithful…who would give unto him the unfaithful man the riches of God? This man that beats his chest saying I haven’t been faithful in anything! But lost it all. I drove all into the ground and am nothing but a poor steward and having nothing left to give, I am too ashamed to lift up my head. big question…Who will give to the weak vessel not faithful in any thing noble…to show it is the power of God (His faithfulness) that saves and not of men?

Maybe you should quote the passage you are attempting to interpret for us above so we can actually read what the passage, what the bible is saying. Thanks !

 

[Johann]

I already showed how the Greek must agree in number, gender and case with its antecedent. Touto( this) DPro-NNS and pisteos(faith)- N-GFS and doron (gift )N-NNS. So this does not line up with faith in Ephesians 2:8. They are not in agreement in number, gender and case. Greek Basics 101.

Salvation , Grace and This are each in the nominative case therefore are in agreement. Faith is in the genitive case and grace genitive. below is how the verse breaks down in the Greek.

For saved (nominative) you are by grace (dative) through faith (genitive), and this (nominative) not from yourselves (genitive); the gift (nominative) of God ‘it is’.

This basic N.T. Greek lesson affirms what I have stated above it accurate and true in Ephesians 2:8

Lesson 3

hope this helps !!!

I have already shared two video clips going deeper into the construction of --

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:


Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph 2:8 ΤῇG3588|T-DSF|- γὰρG1063|CONJ|For χάριτίG5485|N-DSF|by grace ἐστεG1510|G5719|V-PAI-2P|you are σεσῳσμένοιG4982|G5772|V-RPP-NPM|saved διὰG1223|PREP|through πίστεωςG4102|N-GSF|faith, καὶG2532|CONJ|and τοῦτοG3778|D-NSN|this οὐκG3756|PRT-N|not ἐξG1537|PREP|of ὑμῶνG4771|P-2GP|yourselves; ΘεοῦG2316|N-GSM|[it is] of God τὸG3588|T-NSN|the δῶρονG1435|N-NSN|gift,
Not from yourselves-Genitive

Through faith-Genitive, Feminine, Singular

Of God-Genitive, Masculine, Singular

This-Demonstrative Pronoun - Nominative Neuter Singular

Not of yourselves--Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Accusative 1st Person Plural

Your faith, whereby you receive salvation, is not of yourselves, not of your own power, nor of your own merit; you can neither believe of yourselves, without supernatural light from the word and Spirit of truth, wisdom, and revelation; and divine grace inclining and enabling you to apply to and rely on Christ for salvation, and on the truths and promises of God through him; nor can you, by works done while you are yourselves in unbelief and unrenewed, deserve that God should give you faith.

But your faith, as well as your salvation, is the gift of God; is of his operation, Col_2:12; from his light shining into your hearts, 2Co_4:6; and is from him as a free gift, asked indeed of him, and obtained from him, in and by prayer, but utterly unmerited on your part.

“God, by the gracious influence of his Spirit, fixes our attention to the great objects of faith, subdues our prejudices against it, awakens holy affections in our souls, and, on the whole, enables us to believe, and to persevere in believing, till we receive the great end of our faith in the complete salvation of our souls.” — Doddridge.

Not of works — Neither this faith, nor this salvation, is merited by, or is owing to, any works you ever performed, will or can perform, whether in obedience to the law of Moses, ceremonial or moral, or any other law whatever; much less is it merited by, or owing to, any works done previous to your conversion. Lest any man should boast — As if he had, by his own works of righteousness, procured salvation, and so should ascribe the glory of it to himself, rather than to God.

This just "sits" right with me, and we need to examine other passages as well
We cannot "save or conjure up faith to save ourselves"

Brother--please listen to this.

Still tired.

 

[Ritajanice]

NIV
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Maybe you should quote the passage you are attempting to interpret for us above so we can actually read what the passage, what the bible is saying. Thanks !

Luke 16:11-12 If therefore you have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches ? [12] And if you have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?

John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Faith comes by Hearing and Hearing by the word of God. If I told you earthly things and you believed not …how will you believe if I tell you of heavenly things? Can any hear apart from the Spirit of God? Does Hearing what the Spirit of God says come by our own power or is it a work of God? Same with saving Faith… as the parable above warns you can’t serve two masters ..is it then both of mens doing and of Gods work? Is saving Faith a work of the circumcision of Christ, being a saving Faith that bears forth in the work (Fruit) of Christ?

If I told you earthly things and you believed not
How will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? Does believing come first and is of the power of the flesh, the carnal man, to believe or a fruit of the Spirit of God, a work of God by the circumcision of Christ…if he tells of heavenly things? Think of the disciples and His asking them … are you still in doubt, do you still struggle with this …soon I will talk to you plainly and show you the Father.

 

[Episkopos]

Fruit of the spirit is given to those who receive the spirit.. It is one of the gifts God gives to his children.

Yes. This is true.

A non child of God does not have the spirit. so no, saving faith would not be a fruit of the spirit in that sense..

Saving faith is not limited to one level. We can be saved by believing God for a healing in a certain situation. Is that not also saving faith?

There is a human faith but also a "GIFT OF FAITH" ...by the Spirit. That is the faith that allows for the higher walk....to walk as Jesus walked. At that level of SAVING faith...eternal life is being experienced with a victory over sin, the world and the devil.

it is the work of God we believe (john 6) in that God draws us, Gods reveals himself.

In the higher walk, yes. But we can become confused on this issue and begin believing that our BELIEFS come from God....whereas they actually derive from an indoctrination ABOUT God. It takes great care to differentiate what comes from God and what comes from men...or us.

and God helps us to understand the gospel.

Only in low resolution...at first. We need to go to God for a full measure of grace and a full understanding of the mystery and power of God...to know life as He knows life. To know peace as He knows peace....and to love as He loves.

 

[ChristisGod]

I have already shared two video clips going deeper into the construction of --

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:


Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph 2:8 ΤῇG3588|T-DSF|- γὰρG1063|CONJ|For χάριτίG5485|N-DSF|by grace ἐστεG1510|G5719|V-PAI-2P|you are σεσῳσμένοιG4982|G5772|V-RPP-NPM|saved διὰG1223|PREP|through πίστεωςG4102|N-GSF|faith, καὶG2532|CONJ|and τοῦτοG3778|D-NSN|this οὐκG3756|PRT-N|not ἐξG1537|PREP|of ὑμῶνG4771|P-2GP|yourselves; ΘεοῦG2316|N-GSM|[it is] of God τὸG3588|T-NSN|the δῶρονG1435|N-NSN|gift,
Not from yourselves-Genitive

Through faith-Genitive, Feminine, Singular

Of God-Genitive, Masculine, Singular

This-Demonstrative Pronoun - Nominative Neuter Singular

Not of yourselves--Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Accusative 1st Person Plural

Your faith, whereby you receive salvation, is not of yourselves, not of your own power, nor of your own merit; you can neither believe of yourselves, without supernatural light from the word and Spirit of truth, wisdom, and revelation; and divine grace inclining and enabling you to apply to and rely on Christ for salvation, and on the truths and promises of God through him; nor can you, by works done while you are yourselves in unbelief and unrenewed, deserve that God should give you faith.

But your faith, as well as your salvation, is the gift of God; is of his operation, Col_2:12; from his light shining into your hearts, 2Co_4:6; and is from him as a free gift, asked indeed of him, and obtained from him, in and by prayer, but utterly unmerited on your part.

“God, by the gracious influence of his Spirit, fixes our attention to the great objects of faith, subdues our prejudices against it, awakens holy affections in our souls, and, on the whole, enables us to believe, and to persevere in believing, till we receive the great end of our faith in the complete salvation of our souls.” — Doddridge.

Not of works — Neither this faith, nor this salvation, is merited by, or is owing to, any works you ever performed, will or can perform, whether in obedience to the law of Moses, ceremonial or moral, or any other law whatever; much less is it merited by, or owing to, any works done previous to your conversion. Lest any man should boast — As if he had, by his own works of righteousness, procured salvation, and so should ascribe the glory of it to himself, rather than to God.

This just "sits" right with me, and we need to examine other passages as well
We cannot "save or conjure up faith to save ourselves"

Brother--please listen to this.

Still tired.

No worries you seem to be drawing a line in the sand. I was exegeting Ephesians 2:8 alone from the Greek with number , gender and case which must all match with the antecedent. I demonstrated that along with the Greek Lesson that I linked in the post affirming that this, salvation and gift are all in agreement in the nominative case.

Salvation , Grace and This are each in the nominative case therefore are in agreement. Faith is in the genitive case and grace genitive. below is how the verse breaks down in the Greek.

For saved (nominative) you are by grace (dative) through faith (genitive), and this (nominative) not from yourselves (genitive); the gift (nominative) of God ‘it is’.

You said you like word studies and the above is how the words in the Greek break down and agree in number gender and case. This is N.T. Greek Basics 101.

Once this is established from Ephesians 2:8 then we can go to other passages about the same things to see if they support Ephesians 2:8 which I also demonstrated from Pauls other writings on grace, gift, faith and salvation that are parallel passages.

hope this helps !!!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Luke 16:11-12 If therefore you have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches ? [12] And if you have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?

John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Faith comes by Hearing and Hearing by the word of God. If I told you earthly things and you believed not …how will you believe if I tell you of heavenly things? Can any hear apart from the Spirit of God? Does Hearing what the Spirit of God says come by our own power or is it a work of God? Same with saving Faith… as the parable above warns you can’t serve two masters ..is it then both of mens doing and of Gods work? Is saving Faith a work of the circumcision of Christ, being a saving Faith that bears forth in the work (Fruit) of Christ?

If I told you earthly things and you believed not
How will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? Does believing come first and is of the power of the flesh, the carnal man, to believe or a fruit of the Spirit of God, a work of God by the circumcision of Christ…if he tells of heavenly things? Think of the disciples and His asking them … are you still in doubt, do you still struggle with this …soon I will talk to you plainly and show you the Father.

I will lead those deaf, blind and dumb.
I will heal them.

 

[Episkopos]

Is saving Faith a fruit of the Spirit of God? Is saving Faith born (comes out from, sprouts, grows, bears fruit) of God? That is what I am asking? Does Faith a part of the fruit of the Spirt of God …save? Notice “a part of” the fruit where he said abide in the Vine? No? yes?

There will be an endless conflict of human faith and the faith OF Christ until one realizes that faith indeed exists on more than one level. In Him we go from faith to faith.

Without understanding the 2 levels of faith we won't understand the 2 levels of righteousness...and the purpose of there being 2 testaments.

In understanding we are to be adult. A house can be built with more than one floor. Here in Quebec we call that (a 2 storey house) a "cottage"....as opposed to a single storey house we call a "bungalow". Have you ever noticed that with a bungalow...its always the same storey???!! ;)

 

[VictoryinJesus]

God draws all men to Himself as Jesus said. When the Son of man is lifted up the Father will draw all men to Himself. ( John 12:32). The Holy Spirit will convict everyone is sin, righteousness and judgment is also what Jesus taught in John 16:8. So God acts first though the Holy Spirit to convict man of his sins then its up to man to respond in faith to the call of the gospel to be saved. Romans 10:9-15, 1 Corinthians 15:1-17, John 1:12-13, 20:31 and Ephesians 1:13 as a few of many examples. Man first believes and receives the gospel message by faith and then God regenerates them, gives them life, the new birth, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit where we become saved and have eternal life. John 3:16-18 teaches us the same.

John 3:16
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life;

John 5:24
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:47
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.


hope this helps !!!

To me you are missing the point. The first work being in the above the saving Faith given unto them in —your Faith has done this Work— you can’t dispute He revealed Himself unto them, as He walked and did only what He saw the Father doing, only saying what the Father says. He revealed Himself to them —the Revelation of Jesus Christ —while not revealing Himself to the Pharisees. None of the healings were random and of men’s doing. All of them He had to first reveal Himself for who He is. That worked their Faith —the revealing of Him—to run and bow before Him. Every miracle revealed the work of the Father in Him. The woman who prepared Him for His death… He choose to reveal His death and burial to her. She didn’t do this from a carnal nature but a loving tender “My Lord” what I can do for you nature. While the disciples scratched their heads saying what a waste of precious oil …we could have sold that and given the cost of the precious oil to the poor. And other times…what do you mean you must go? It was revealed to her in “your Faith” being a work of God to reveal the Father —to her—which is what “moved” her to go against what the disciples were angry for …to prepare Him to go…

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Have to wonder really long about the pathetic wasteful servant who wasn’t faithful at all, wasting all that he had on the unfruitful works of darkness. Faithful in nothing. If he being unfaithful…who would give unto him —the unfaithful man —the riches of God? This man that beats his chest saying—I’ve done nothing to deserve it—I haven’t been faithful in anything! But lost it all. I drove all into the ground and am nothing but a poor steward and having nothing left to give, I am too ashamed to lift up my head. big question…Who will give to the weak vessel not faithful in any thing noble…to show it is the power of God (His faithfulness) that saves and not of men?

gold silver precious stone, wood hay and straw.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

There will be an endless conflict of human faith and the faith OF Christ until one realizes that faith indeed exists on more than one level. In Him we go from faith to faith.

Without understanding the 2 levels of faith we won't understand the 2 levels of righteousness...and the purpose of there being 2 testaments.

In understanding we are to be adult. A house can be built with more than one floor. Here in Quebec we call that (a 2 storey house) a "cottage"....as opposed to a single storey house we call a "bungalow". Have you ever noticed that with a bungalow...its always the same storey???!! ;)

2 levels of faith. who comes up with this stuff?

You either TRUST God or you do not..

there are no levels.. If you trust him, even in the faith of a mustard seed, he is faithful.

Like the man said, I believe lord. help me with my unbelief

 

[VictoryinJesus]

gold silver precious stone, wood hay and straw.

Without Him…without Faith being more precious than gold, though your Faith be tried with the Fire —that you may be found —prepared a work of God made without hands and not the works of men’s hands, their idols made of gold, silver, precious stone, wood, hay, straw to be cast to burn in the Fire. 1 Corinthians 13:13 Lexicon: But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Abide those three
Who said it is apart from the Spirit of God and the work of men’s hands?
Who said you are naked?

 

[ChristisGod]

To me you are missing the point. The first work being in the above the saving Faith given unto them in —your Faith has done this Work— you can’t dispute He revealed Himself unto them, as He walked and did only what He saw the Father doing, only saying what the Father says. He revealed Himself to them —the Revelation of Jesus Christ —while not revealing Himself to the Pharisees. None of the healings were random and of men’s doing. All of them He had to first reveal Himself for who He is. That worked their Faith —the revealing of Him—to run and bow before Him. Every miracle revealed the work of the Father in Him. The woman who prepared Him for His death… He choose to reveal His death and burial to her. She didn’t do this from a carnal nature but a loving tender “My Lord” what I can do for you nature. While the disciples scratched their heads saying what a waste of precious oil …we could have sold that and given the cost of the precious oil to the poor. And other times…what do you mean you must go? It was revealed to her in “your Faith” being a work of God to reveal the Father —to her—which is what “moved” her to go against what the disciples were angry for …to prepare Him to go…

Yet Thomas did not believe did he ?

Jesus response : blessed are this who believe yet do not see.

“Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Without Him…without Faith being more precious than gold, though your Faith be tried with the Fire —that you may be found —prepared a work of God made without hands and not the works of men’s hands, their idols made of gold, silver, precious stone, wood, hay, straw to be cast to burn in the Fire. 1 Corinthians 13:13 Lexicon: But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Not sure where you are going here.

You asked about the person who had little or no faith after they were supposedly saved. what would happen.

gold silver precious stone wood hay straw is the answer.

He would suffer loss of reward as it would be burned in the fire. but if he was saved, he himself will still be saved even as through fire.

that's what that passage is about..

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Yet Thomas did not believe did he ?

Jesus response : blessed are this who believe yet do not see.

“Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

How do they believe when they have not seen? Unless it be a work of God and not of men?

 

[ChristisGod]

Not sure where you are going here.

You asked about the person who had little or no faith after they were supposedly saved. what would happen.

gold silver precious stone wood hay straw is the answer.

He would suffer loss of reward as it would be burned in the fire. but if he was saved, he himself will still be saved even as through fire.

that's what that passage is about..

Exactly. Great faith or little faith- the believer is still saved as thought through fire. As Jude puts it pulling them out of the fire with their polluted garments. Jude 1:23.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Not sure where you are going here.

You asked about the person who had little or no faith after they were supposedly saved. what would happen.

gold silver precious stone wood hay straw is the answer.

He would suffer loss of reward as it would be burned in the fire. but if he was saved, he himself will still be saved even as through fire.

that's what that passage is about..

Wait ..what …what Fire?