How are we to reckon ourselves as being dead to sin?

[CadyandZoe]

For God so loved the world...

I'm certain that God wishes that all people would turn to Him, accept Jesus' sacrifice on their behalf, join His family, and have eternal life.

I guess I'm tripped by the word "wish" or "desire" because in my mind these words have more than one connotation.

 

[Enoch111]

But if there is any delay, being born again takes place prior to belief.

That's what Calvinists teach and it is total nonsense. Check John 1:12-13. For the New Birth (which is a work of the Holy Spirit) to take place BEFORE a sinner believes on the Lord Jesus Christ would mean that gift of the Holy Spirit was given to an UNBELIEVER! Do you see the absurdity?

 

[Johann]

I think you will find it interesting-

--and maybe this.

Noticed you didn't give this a "listen"

 

[Johann]

But notice how the word saved here so often means to be preserved/healed...a temporal life healing...and not an eternal status. it's a mistake to take a deliverance from a temporal affliction to mean an eternal state.

I have to concur with you on this.

 

[Johann]

I know that I was pointing out I use to believe saving faith was a gift as a Calvinist

I would disagree-based on the construction of--τη γαρ χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι δια της πιστεως και τουτο ουκ εξ υμων θεου το δωρον
ουκ εξ εργων ινα μη τις καυχησηται

Eph 2:8 ΤῇG3588|T-DSF|- γὰρG1063|CONJ|For χάριτίG5485|N-DSF|by grace ἐστεG1510|G5719|V-PAI-2P|you are σεσῳσμένοιG4982|G5772|V-RPP-NPM|saved διὰG1223|PREP|through πίστεωςG4102|N-GSF|faith, καὶG2532|CONJ|and τοῦτοG3778|D-NSN|this οὐκG3756|PRT-N|not ἐξG1537|PREP|of ὑμῶνG4771|P-2GP|yourselves; ΘεοῦG2316|N-GSM|[it is] of God τὸG3588|T-NSN|the δῶρονG1435|N-NSN|gift,

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it] is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

--for all have NOT faith-as it stands written elsewhere

 

[CadyandZoe]

Why make it difficult?
We HAVE NOW--Present, Perfect==eternal life-are you familiar with the morphologies in the Greek text?
What is a Perfect in Koine Greek?
And it is ALREADY actualized now for the believer-a present reality.

My apologies for coming back late-load shedding in SA.

No problem brother. (I miss my guitar.)

But wouldn't you say that the present perfect verb tense has two different connotations depending on whether the subject is a finite human being or a divine creator? I don't know, maybe God lives in the eternal "now." :)

With God, when he makes a promise, then it does exist in the now. The promise is as real as God is, which is why John can say we have it now. Thus, it seems, that when the Biblical authors speak about a promise of God, it is typical to refer to them in the present perfect tense.

Nonetheless, we know that God is faithful to keep his promises. Maybe a better word is constancy. His word never fails. Even so, from a human perspective, qualities like faithfulness and constancy are time dependent. We understand God's constancy as we witness his promises coming true after he made them. In other words, although the apostles and prophets employ the present perfect tense with reference to God's promises, we experience them as potential reality until the moment when God actualizes them.

John says that we "have" eternal life because of God's constancy; but eternal life remains a future hope until God fulfills his promise at the coming of Jesus.

Where am I missing something?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

we should take this calvinist debate to another place.. We are discussing important stuff here I do not think we need the distraction

 

[Johann]

For those reasons, saving faith is nothing like the fickleness of wavering human belief. It is as enduring and unchanging as the God who grants it.

Faith Is a Gift

www.masters.edu

--and this is where you found it, correct?

How do we know that faith is God’s gift? Left to ourselves, no one would ever believe: “There is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God” (Romans 3:11).

“So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy” (Romans 9:16). God draws the sinner to Christ and gives the ability to believe. Without that divinely generated faith, one cannot understand and approach the Savior. “A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised” (1 Corinthians 2:14). That is precisely why when Peter affirmed his faith in Christ as the Son of God, Jesus told him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven” (Matthew 16:17). Faith is graciously given to believers by God himself.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


q.d. God’s election is not of Jacob’s, or of any other man’s, willing or running; i.e. it is not from his good desires or deeds, his good inclinations or actions, or from the foresight thereof; but it is of God’s mere mercy and good pleasure. This text wounds Pelagianism under the fifth rib. Nec volenti, nec volanti, was the motto of a noble personage.

According to this sense, the words might as well be read, it is not only of God that shows mercy, but of him that willeth, and of him that runneth, which no Christian would dare to say: the true sense is, that as election, which is the leading step to salvation, is not owing at all to the will of men, but to the good pleasure and will of God; and not at all to the works of men, that being done before them, and they being the fruits and effects of that, but to the free love, grace, and good will of God; so salvation in all its parts and branches, as redemption, justification, regeneration, calling, and conversion, faith, repentance, hope, love, &c. and eternal life, is not to be ascribed at all to the will of men, nor at all to the works of men, but entirely and alone to the love, grace, and mercy of God through Christ.
(k) Enchiridion, c. 32.



Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

2Th_3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.
for all men have not faith: no man has faith of himself, it is the gift of God, and the operation of his Spirit; and it is only given to the elect of God, who are ordained unto eternal life, and therefore it is called the faith of God's elect; all mankind have it not, none but Christ's sheep; and the reason why others have it not is, because they are not of his sheep. This is a truth; but rather the true sense of the words is, that all that are professors of religion, and members of churches, and even all that are preachers of the word, have not faith. They may have an historical and temporary faith and the faith of miracles, and even all faith but the true faith; they may profess to believe, and yet not believe, as Simon Magus, and his followers seem to be intended here; for this is given as a reason why the apostle desired to be delivered from the above men. The Jews say (o), that
"he that studies not in the law, לאו ביה מהימנותא, "there is no faith in him"--and it is forbidden to come near him, or to trade with him, or to walk with him, "because there is no faith in him".''
The apostle seems to allude to this custom.

"For all men have not faith" (ou gar panton he pistis) For not all men (have) the faith," or "the faith (is) not of all men"; the idea is that not all who claim it, have or hold the faith, the body of truth, as revealed in the Word. Seducers, false prophets, leeches, and religious vampires are on every hand, Mat_7:15; Mat_7:21-23; Mr 7-1-9; Act_20:28-30. Hymenaus and Alexander put aside and made shipwreck concerning it, 1Ti_1:19-20; and Philetus joined them in overthrowing the faith of some, reeking confusion by saying the resurrection was past, 2Ti_2:17-18.

Are you with me so far?

 

[Lizbeth]

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
faith; for though fidelity, both in words and actions, which is very ornamental to the Gospel, and a profession of religion may be meant; yet faith in Christ is not to be excluded, as it is generally by interpreters; for this is not of a man's self, nor have all men it: it is a gift of God, the operation of his power, and the work of his Spirit, whence he is styled the spirit of faith; and which therefore must have a place among his fruits; and which lies and shows itself in believing in Christ for salvation, in embracing the doctrines of the Gospel, and making a profession of them, which is called the profession of faith; all which, when right, comes from the Spirit of God.

Anyway, I'll see what @Lizbeth is saying-Faith a gift
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον. This clause is best taken as parenthetical. Even the faith which is the one element which we contribute to the total result is not self-originated. It is a gift of God. Cf. Donum est Dei diligere Deum. Ipse ut diligeretur dedit, qui non dilectus diligit (Council of Orange). He inspires us with love by loving us, and with faith by believing in us and showing Himself absolutely worthy of confidence.
That in the ages to come — As if he had said, His great design in doing all this for us is, that in all succeeding ages, under the dispensation of the gospel, he might show — Might demonstrate and display, (as the word ενδειξηται implies,) for the instruction and encouragement of others; the exceeding riches of his grace — Manifested both to Jews and Gentiles; in his kindness — His benignity and bounty; toward us — In pardoning, adopting, regenerating, and finally saving us; through Christ Jesus — For we have received the whole blessing by him, and are partakers of it as connected with him, whom God hath appointed our head and Saviour, and taught us to regard as our great representative. For (to repeat the important truth before asserted) by grace are ye saved through faith — Grace, as signifying the free mercy, or unmerited goodness of God, without any respect to human worthiness, confers the glorious gift of salvation; and grace, in the other sense of the expression, namely, the influence of the Spirit, prepares us for the reception of the blessed gift, and conveys it to us; and faith in the Lord Jesus as our Redeemer and Saviour, our Governor and Judge, and in the truths and promises of his holy gospel, with an empty hand, and without any pretence to personal desert; faith, productive of unfeigned love and obedience, receives the heavenly blessing. And that not of yourselves — This refers to the whole preceding clause, and means, 1st, Your salvation is not of yourselves, is not of your own power, nor of your own merit; strictly speaking, you can neither save yourselves, nor deserve that God should save you; your salvation, in all its branches, present and eternal, is from God, to whom alone it belongs to enlighten, justify, sanctify, and glorify you, and it is from him as a free, undeserved gift. Just Song of Solomon , 2 d,

Your faith, whereby you receive salvation, is not of yourselves, not of your own power, nor of your own merit; you can neither believe of yourselves, without supernatural light from the word and Spirit of truth, wisdom, and revelation; and divine grace inclining and enabling you to apply to and rely on Christ for salvation, and on the truths and promises of God through him; nor can you, by works done while you are yourselves in unbelief and unrenewed, deserve that God should give you faith. But your faith, as well as your salvation, is the gift of God; is of his operation, Col_2:12; from his light shining into your hearts, 2Co_4:6; and is from him as a free gift, asked indeed of him, and obtained from him, in and by prayer, but utterly unmerited on your part. “God, by the gracious influence of his Spirit, fixes our attention to the great objects of faith, subdues our prejudices against it, awakens holy affections in our souls, and, on the whole, enables us to believe, and to persevere in believing, till we receive the great end of our faith in the complete salvation of our souls.” — Doddridge. Not of works — Neither this faith, nor this salvation, is merited by, or is owing to, any works you ever performed, will or can perform, whether in obedience to the law of Moses, ceremonial or moral, or any other law whatever; much less is it merited by, or owing to, any works done previous to your conversion. Lest any man should boast — As if he had, by his own works of righteousness, procured salvation, and so should ascribe the glory of it to himself, rather than to God.

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

This is one of those paradoxes in scripture. He gave us the gift of faith to believe. We did not choose Him but He chose us. ( And I somehow even discerned at the time that is what happened to me, because it was inexplicable.) Yet at the same time the Lord holds accountable those who don't receive this faith. Notice even having a "love of the truth" is something that is received. And the bible also says, what do we have that we didn't receive? I'm not sure how to explain it....maybe it has to do with willingness, whether a person is willing to receive, rather than reject? I'm just not sure.

 

[CadyandZoe]

That's what Calvinists teach and it is total nonsense. Check John 1:12-13. For the New Birth (which is a work of the Holy Spirit) to take place BEFORE a sinner believes on the Lord Jesus Christ would mean that gift of the Holy Spirit was given to an UNBELIEVER! Do you see the absurdity?

I understand, but let me back up a few verses okay?

John 1:9-13

This was the true Light that, coming into the world, enlightens every person. He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and yet the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own people did not accept Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a man, but of God.​

I take note of the fact (and perhaps you see it also) John's contrast between "his own people" and "as many as received him." His own people did not accept him, but others received him. And according to John, the essential difference between those who did not accept him and those that received him was being born of the will of God. It seems to me that being born again is closely associated with those who received Jesus.

Not only this, however, John is focused on Jesus' role as the "light" of the world. Specifically, Jesus brought new insight and a new comprehension of God's will concerning Life with a capital 'L'. (Verse 4) Jesus manifested a fuller and more profound understanding of humanity and God's will for humanity, bringing great intellectual and spiritual insight to mankind. And the locus of that body of insight, John says, was God's will regarding life: both the source of life and the potential quality of life that God wishes to bring about in his son.

Jesus often spoke of the fact that his own people were dull of hearing and blind. He spoke parables and often said, "those who have eyes to see, let him see." And so, enlightenment is restricted to those who have eyes to see; without the eyes to see one is not able to grasp or take advantage of the light Jesus brought. Those who received him, therefore, are those who were born of God and they didn't receive him who were not born of God.

Thus, the miracle of inward sight is prevenient with regard to receiving him. Those who are born of the spirit, believe the gospel, and those who believe the gospel are sealed in him by the Spirit as a down-payment of their inheritance.

Yes? No?

 

[Johann]

we experience them as potential reality until the moment when God actualizes them.

Brother-with me you need to use and work with the Scriptures-any Scripture references re "we experience them as a potential reality UNTIL the moment God actually ACTUALIZES them?"

 

[ChristisGod]

I lean toward the idea that belief and sealing in the Holy Spirit take place at the same time. But if there is any delay, being born again takes place prior to belief.

I am reacting to a common misconception among believers that salvation is a quid-pro-quo exchange between God and the believer. For instance, if I confess my sins, God is faithful to forgive our sins; if I believe in Jesus Christ, I will be granted eternal life; if I practice spiritual formation, my life will go well, and etc. In that doctrine, I act and God responds.

What I said above isn't false but it needs to be seen in light of a larger picture, wherein God's grace is prevenient. God opens eyes and ears to the gospel; God removes a heart of stone, replacing it with a heart of flesh. In other words, God's graces is proactive, not reactive. He always takes the first step. If I have a spirit of contrition and a humble heart, he put it there. If I am willing and ready to hear the gospel, he caused that condition in me.

Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Notice what comes first

1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.


John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.

John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.

John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.

Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.

Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.

Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.

Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.

See how scripture is consistent when you read it objectively, without bias ?


conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order

1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel
4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life


hope this helps !!!

 

[Episkopos]

This is one of those paradoxes in scripture. He gave us the gift of faith to believe. We did not choose Him but He chose us. ( And I somehow even discerned at the time that is what happened to me, because it was inexplicable.) Yet at the same time the Lord holds accountable those who don't receive this faith. Notice even having a "love of the truth" is something that is received. And the bible also says, what do we have that we didn't receive? I'm not sure how to explain it....maybe it has to do with willingness, whether a person is willing to receive, rather than reject? I'm just not sure.

Maybe to whom much is given more is required?????

 

[ChristisGod]

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
faith; for though fidelity, both in words and actions, which is very ornamental to the Gospel, and a profession of religion may be meant; yet faith in Christ is not to be excluded, as it is generally by interpreters; for this is not of a man's self, nor have all men it: it is a gift of God, the operation of his power, and the work of his Spirit, whence he is styled the spirit of faith; and which therefore must have a place among his fruits; and which lies and shows itself in believing in Christ for salvation, in embracing the doctrines of the Gospel, and making a profession of them, which is called the profession of faith; all which, when right, comes from the Spirit of God.

Notice its a fruit of the spirit ( faithfulness, being faithful ) that only applies to those already in Christ who are walking in the spirit, filled with the spirit resulting in the fruit of the spirit.

FYI- there are no fruits of the spirit- its fruit singular meaning there is no faithfulness apart from love or joy or peace or patience or kindness or gentleness or self control- they all go together, happen together as one.

The same goes for these verses which the context is for those who are already saved/believers- Eph. 2:8, Phil. 1:29, Heb. 12:2, 1 Cor. 4:7, Rom 12:3- God grants faith and the gift of faith to the body of believers to build one another up in the faith.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Johann]

This is one of those paradoxes in scripture. He gave us the gift of faith to believe. We did not choose Him but He chose us. ( And I somehow even discerned at the time that is what happened to me, because it was inexplicable.) Yet at the same time the Lord holds accountable those who don't receive this faith. Notice even having a "love of the truth" is something that is received. And the bible also says, what do we have that we didn't receive? I'm not sure how to explain it....maybe it has to do with willingness, whether a person is willing to receive, rather than reject? I'm just not sure.

I am in full agreement here and have already posted Scripture references-

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
2Th 3:1 Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:
2Th 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.
2Th 3:3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.

2Th 3:1 Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:
2Th 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.
2Th 3:3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.

I guess this is where the rubber hits the road--If I should say-Faith is a dorean/gift-which it is--All will shout "Calvinism!" when all I do is looking at the Scriptures, coupled with my own experience-that faith, the whole salvation "package" is God initiated-for there is no one good-no one that seeks after God.

And you are correct in that no one can come to Me unless drawn by the Father-
So, @Lizbeth-would you say faith is a gift?

If yes, then you and I are in big, big trouble for we would be labelled as Calvinists when all I desire is for the truth, as it stands written, rightly cutting straight the Scriptures-and having no fear of the panav/face of man.

I firmly believe that THE faith is a gift-based on the Greek construction and other Scripture references.

Very tired-was up till 3 this morning 1:44 PM now.

Later
Johann.

 

[ChristisGod]

I would disagree-based on the construction of--τη γαρ χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι δια της πιστεως και τουτο ουκ εξ υμων θεου το δωρον
ουκ εξ εργων ινα μη τις καυχησηται

Eph 2:8 ΤῇG3588|T-DSF|- γὰρG1063|CONJ|For χάριτίG5485|N-DSF|by grace ἐστεG1510|G5719|V-PAI-2P|you are σεσῳσμένοιG4982|G5772|V-RPP-NPM|saved διὰG1223|PREP|through πίστεωςG4102|N-GSF|faith, καὶG2532|CONJ|and τοῦτοG3778|D-NSN|this οὐκG3756|PRT-N|not ἐξG1537|PREP|of ὑμῶνG4771|P-2GP|yourselves; ΘεοῦG2316|N-GSM|[it is] of God τὸG3588|T-NSN|the δῶρονG1435|N-NSN|gift,

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it] is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

--for all have NOT faith-as it stands written elsewhere

Most individuals claiming that this passage teaches ‘faith is a gift’ don’t understand how the gender and number works in Greek. They don’t understand that Greek pronouns must agree with their antecedent in gender and number. It is improper to interpret the passage as faith being the gift because of the gender mismatch. It is improper to interpret the gift as each of the parts individually due to the number mismatch. In this case, the Greek doesn’t translate well into English, because of the limitations of the English language. This makes Ephesians 2:8-9 easy to misunderstand and misuse. There are only two appropriate interpretations. The first interpretation is that the whole package is the gift. The first means that the process by which we are saved is a gift. The second interpretation is that being saved by grace is the gift. The second is consistent with Paul’s previous writings and is the strongest interpretation.

Paul would not contradict himself regarding faith and grace in other places.

“What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness. Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness”

“For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all”

“No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” Romans 4

Compare Romans and Ephesians (The gift is “by grace you have been saved”)

Romans: “[we] are justified by his grace as a gift… to be received by faith”
Ephesians “for you have been saved by grace [as a gift] through faith”


hope this helps !!!

 

[mailmandan]

Ephesians 2:8 (AMPC) - For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God.

 

[Lizbeth]

Don't give up hope on my communication skills @Lizbeth-I'm catching up-love your Lev/heart and thank you for the encouragement.


Act 18:24 Now a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was an eloquent man, competent in the Scriptures.
Act 18:25 He had been instructed in the way of the Lord. And being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus, though he knew only the baptism of John.
Act 18:26 He began to speak boldly in the synagogue, but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.

Had been instructed in the way of the Lord (ēn katēchēmenos tēn hodon tou kuriou). Periphrastic past perfect passive of katēcheō, rare in the old Greek and not in the lxx from kata and ēcheō (ēchō, sound) as in Luk_1:4,

to re-sound, to re-echo, to teach by repeated dinning into the ears as the Arabs do now, to teach orally by word of mouth (and ear). Here the accusative of the thing (the word) is retained in the passive like with didaskō, to teach (Robertson, Grammar, p. 485).

Being fervent in spirit (zeōn tōi pneumati). Boiling (from zeō, to boil, old and common verb, in N.T. only here and Rom_12:11) like boiling water or yeast. The Latin verb ferveo means to boil or ferment. Locative case after it.

Taught carefully (edidasken akribōs). Imperfect active, was teaching or inchoative, began teaching, accurately. He taught accurately what he knew, a fine gift for any preacher.

Only the baptism of John (monon to baptisma Iōanou). It was a baptism of repentance (marked by repentance) as Paul said (Act_13:24; Act_19:4), as Peter said (Act_2:38) and as the Gospels tell (Mar_1:4, etc.). That is to say, Apollos knew only what the Baptist knew when he died, but John had preached the coming of the Messiah, had baptized him, had identified him as the Son of God, had proclaimed the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but had not seen the Cross, the Resurrection of Jesus, nor the great Day of Pentecost.
Robertson

--and maybe, God willing, you can teach me more fully/accurately re the derech/way and how to formulate my ideas into words?

Shalom
Johann

Shalom and blessing to you brother. If you only knew how I struggle to understand things myself, you might look for help elsewhere, lol. :) You are kind to think of me and of course I will do my best as the Lord leads and gives His light, and as we all help and edify each other. And please feel free to let me know if there's anything in particular I can try to help express in words.

 

[Lizbeth]

Most individuals claiming that this passage teaches ‘faith is a gift’ don’t understand how the gender and number works in Greek. They don’t understand that Greek pronouns must agree with their antecedent in gender and number. It is improper to interpret the passage as faith being the gift because of the gender mismatch. It is improper to interpret the gift as each of the parts individually due to the number mismatch. In this case, the Greek doesn’t translate well into English, because of the limitations of the English language. This makes Ephesians 2:8-9 easy to misunderstand and misuse. There are only two appropriate interpretations. The first interpretation is that the whole package is the gift. The first means that the process by which we are saved is a gift. The second interpretation is that being saved by grace is the gift. The second is consistent with Paul’s previous writings and is the strongest interpretation.

Paul would not contradict himself regarding faith and grace in other places.

“What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness. Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness”

“For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all”

“No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” Romans 4

Compare Romans and Ephesians (The gift is “by grace you have been saved”)

Romans: “[we] are justified by his grace as a gift… to be received by faith”
Ephesians “for you have been saved by grace [as a gift] through faith”


hope this helps !!!

Scripture says "What do we have that we didn't receive."

 

[ChristisGod]

Scripture says "What do we have that we didn't receive."

To believers right ?

Think of this if Salvific Faith is given only by God then the gospel is not for everyone and Jesus did not die for the sins of the whole world that whosoever believes in Him may have eternal life.

If thats the case and faith is given by God to certain individuals/sinners then God is actually showing partiality. God then would love some sinners more than others since He gave some sinners faith and not others- that is showing favoritism and that is not a loving God who desires all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. It makes God unjust and unloving. If God desired all to be saved the solution is very simple then give everyone saving faith so all will be saved. But we know that is not the case for not all will be saved.

hope this helps !!!