How are we to reckon ourselves as being dead to sin?

[marks]

So I truly do not see how Paul suffered the loss of all things …has nothing to do with “he will suffer loss; but he himself save by fire” unless I’m mistaken the only reason it is said paul doesn’t fit their in “he will will suffer loss” “yet be saved by fire”…

Perhaps you are alluding to something like this?

If someone were to endeavor to build the church in any way other than God's way, for instance if they attempted to turn others towards legalism, attempting to get people focused on trying to establish their own righteousness, and thereby be accepted by God, then that would be those things Paul counted dung that would be the source of what he built that would be loss.

Much love!

 

[ChristisGod]

Q

They do...and all the vitriol I get for exhorting people to go to God for the full measure of grace reveals what's really going on with people.

This is very basic.

What is being revealed is what indoctrination and religiosity does when the outer man gets puffed up with false assurances.

Imagine that someone who supposedly knows God gets in a hizzy-fit for being exhorted to seek God's face. Only religion does this.

There's no love whatsoever in people that react against the truth. It's easy to see what people are defending. The flesh reacts in defense of itself.

what is being revealed is you have no love for believers and no fruit of the spirit but the unfruitful deeds of the flesh are are work and being demonstrated on a daily basis .

James 3
9 With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse human beings, who have been made in God’s likeness. 10 Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers and sisters, this should not be.11 Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring? 12 My brothers and sisters, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.

 

[Lizbeth]

This I agree with.

This too what you said about Paul. But how are they not connected to the one who suffers loss but saved by fire…his referring to the loss of all things—-which you named some saying before as a natural man —-is this not the same as the hay, wood, and stubble and what is burned? Is it wrong to suggest or read what Paul spoke of to suffer the loss as exactly what that passages speaks of also?

Hmmm, do we think Paul the apostle, apprehended and chosen of God, who laboured more than all the other apostles, and who wrote most of the new testament epistles...was building on the foundation of Christ with wood, hay and stubble? The wood, hay, stubble passage doesn't apply to Paul. In speaking of himself he was talking about his former life in the flesh before he knew Christ. That's what he laid down to gain Christ and counted as dung....all his fleshly advantages....he was a high-up mucky-muck in the Jewish religious community and well educated....these things he counted as dung, sister, not any of his works for the Lord after knowing the Lord.

 

[Lizbeth]

Still see it as connecting. Considering they have already had their reward. Still see Paul suffering the loss of all things was giving up the reward (he counted as dung) in all the doctrines, and study’s and degrees and prestige of being the best stock and a Pharisee. Another is Moses
Hebrews 11:24-27 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; [25] Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; [26] Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures(dung) in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. [27] By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

So I truly do not see how Paul suffered the loss of all things …has nothing to do with “he will suffer loss; but he himself save by fire” unless I’m mistaken the only reason it is said paul doesn’t fit their in “he will will suffer loss” “yet be saved by fire”… is because what is being lost is eternal rewards and NOT the rewards Moses forsook of Egypt “esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the dung”

Unless I misunderstood Paul’s loosing all things can’t be connected because then…it isn’t no skimping by based off our good works that we will receive rewards for but instead a “loss of all things” where the reward in Christ is the same for everyone receiving it. Not a merit system.

Why would Paul need to be saved so as by fire? He wasn't building on the foundation of Christ with wood, hay and stubble, but with imperishable things.

See here he is clearly talking about his fleshly advantages before knowing Christ, when he was a well respected Pharisee under the Law and adhering to a righteousness that was of the flesh, not of Christ:

Phl 3:2-9

Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.

For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

 

[Lizbeth]

I’m not the ones squalling over any loss.

What concerns me the most is it being said there is none.

Well I'm concerned when the word of God is not being rightly divided.

Of course we count the cost of following Christ and He said it costs everything to follow Him. Nobody is disputing that. Why do you assume it? Because we differ with things that Epi teaches?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Why would Paul need to be saved so as by fire? He wasn't building on the foundation of Christ with wood, hay and stubble, but with imperishable things.

Why would Paul be saved as by fire? Because an all consuming fire burnt up all the wood, hay and stubble. Cleansed. That is the only way you can say ….Paul was not building on the foundation of Christ with wood, hay and stubble. Which I agree. Never said he was. Maybe I have misunderstood the disagreements and what those disagreements are. I thought it was being said the one saved by fire is saved (a child) but lost his rewards of maturity. As if loosing wood, hay and stubble is losing rewards. Maybe it is me not making sense. All I meant was I don’t see Paul against saying he suffered loss and was save by an all consuming fire. Enough said. We disagree and that is fine.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Why would Paul be saved as by fire? Because an all consuming fire burnt up all the wood, hay and stubble. Cleansed. That is the only way you can say ….Paul was not building on the foundation of Christ with wood, hay and stubble. Which I agree. Never said he was. Maybe I have misunderstood the disagreements and what those disagreements are. I thought it was being said the one saved by fire is saved (a child) but lost his rewards of maturity. As if loosing wood, hay and stubble is losing rewards. Maybe it is me not making sense. All I meant was I don’t see Paul against saying he suffered loss and was save by an all consuming fire. Enough said. We disagree and that is fine.

who said paul was saved by fire?

I think we can look at pauls life and know he will not be left standing with just aShe’s, he will have much gold silver and precious stone as a reward for what he did.

 

[amigo de christo]

Perhaps you are alluding to something like this?

If someone were to endeavor to build the church in any way other than God's way, for instance if they attempted to turn others towards legalism, attempting to get people focused on trying to establish their own righteousness, and thereby be accepted by God, then that would be those things Paul counted dung that would be the source of what he built that would be loss.

Much love!

Then examine this all inclusive love god real closely . For it seems to be doing just that .
Accepting all religoins and mindsets as valid and good and just spouting lets come together as one and
focus on good works . ITS KICKED out the only way to be saved , CHRIST JESUS . and that is bad news .
real bad news . many wont be liking what they hear on the DAY of THE LORD JESUS , that i sure can say .
But as for the lambs we gonna be singing praises to HIM . The savoir of our soul , our redeemer our savoir the CHRIST OF GOD .

 

[amigo de christo]

Well I'm concerned when the word of God is not being rightly divided.

Of course we count the cost of following Christ and He said it costs everything to follow Him. Nobody is disputing that. Why do you assume it? Because we differ with things that Epi teaches?

When one dont even believe one has to believe n CHRIST , how on earth are they then gonna teach anyone how to follow HIM .
THEY dont follow Him . IF they did , they would have KNOWN HE was and is the ONLY WAY TO GOD . They would
have taught , said , or preached BELIEVE YE IN CHRIST JESUS the only name whereby you can be saved .

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Perhaps you are alluding to something like this?

If someone were to endeavor to build the church in any way other than God's way, for instance if they attempted to turn others towards legalism, attempting to get people focused on trying to establish their own righteousness, and thereby be accepted by God, then that would be those things Paul counted dung that would be the source of what he built that would be loss.

Much love!

You ask a fair question. I agree with what you said. But still the reason I see Paul being as one who suffered loss, he himself saved by fire. Is Yes, what you said above. Because there was hay, wood and stubble. Paul listed it. Laid it out what he Called dung. Knowing it amounted to ashes by the fire.

I truly don’t get how one suffers loss is himself saved by fire. (I mean what I don’t get is the explanations) one reason is Christ come not to destroy but to save. This fire saves. Would this fire that saves one who suffers loss, destroy the precious things of a child of God not fully matured? I don’t think so but it would consume the wood, hay and stubble which would save the child by it the (wood, hay and stubble) being purged.

To suggest there is loss yet one is saved . to me that throws a curve ball. Since there is no denying it says “he himself is saved by fire” to make it work as to why this one is saved by fire…it is turned into: yes they are saved but suffer loss of eternal rewards. …not being fully mature.

It is described to me as this:
Yes saved (a child of God) but not being mature he suffers loss of eternal rewards.
Yet; only hay, wood and stubble” burn which is the warning “be careful how you build” for no other foundation can be laid but that which was laid, which is Christ. Those things imperishable (in Christ)do not burn. I’ll say it again the imperishable doesn’t burn. Which means the ONLY loss can be from what IS burned away : wood, stubble and hay…are these losses of eternal imperishable rewards?? When did hay, wood and stubble become imperishable rewards loss by a child of God who isn’t matured yet?

Because again, that is what I’m reading. this is a child who didn’t mature and loss some of the imperishable “eternal” rewards. That was why he is “saved by fire” in that verse …because he himself is a child of God …but his loss is some eternal rewards. No, I don’t get how hay, wood and stubble is considered loss of eternal rewards of him who is saved by fire…unless some of gold, silver, and precious stone burns too. But that seems like the best explanation for “he himself is saved by fire”.

Those are my questions?
Stupid? Maybe?
But I still have them regardless. But what I see is that small verse is the Gospel. To me it is good news. Saved by Grace apart from works of the flesh. 1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

[Enoch111]

But still the reason I see Paul being as one who suffered loss, he himself saved by fire.

Still on the same confused track. Paul was not saved by fire. And all of Paul's works were GOLD, SILVER, AND PRECIOUS STONES. Which means his works had eternal value and Paul will receive many rewards and crowns.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Paul was not saved by fire.

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1 Peter 4:12-13 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: [13] But rejoice, inasmuch as you are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, you may be glad also with exceeding joy.

And all of Paul's works were GOLD, SILVER, AND PRECIOUS STONES. Which means his works had eternal value and Paul will receive many rewards and crowns.

Circumcised the eighth day,
Of the stock of Israel
Of the tribe of Benjamin
A Hebrews of hebrews
A Pharisee
Persecuting the church
As touching the law, blameless
Are you saying the above is not Wood, hay, stubble? Those things Paul suffered the loss of? There are more in other places when they start provoking him to boast in himself.

 

[Enoch111]

Are you saying the above is not Wood, hay, stubble?

What was in Paul's past has no bearing on his rewards in Heaven. God puts everyone's past behind Him. But again you love to mishmash Scriptures and get all confused.

 

[Episkopos]

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1 Peter 4:12-13 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: [13] But rejoice, inasmuch as you are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, you may be glad also with exceeding joy.

Circumcised the eighth day,
Of the stock of Israel
Of the tribe of Benjamin
A Hebrews of hebrews
A Pharisee
Persecuting the church
As touching the law, blameless
Are you saying the above is not Wood, hay, stubble? Those things Paul suffered the loss of? There are more in other places when they start provoking him to boast in himself.

Paul indeed had his own wood, hay and stubble, burned up through a baptism of fire....that took away all the value he put on worldly things...even (temporally) honourable things...all that he might gain the higher walk that is found by abiding in Christ. From that walk he then was able to produce an eternal fruit (gold, silver, precious stones) that will stand up to the fire of testing on judgment day.

God's judgment will reveal the quality of what we do. If we pass through the baptism of fire NOW, then we can get on with an eternally fit produce of fruit to the glory of God.

Are we willing to lose all to gain Christ?

We are not talking here of a gradual loss...the loss is all or else there is nothing eternal about it. It's too easy to think we are advancing when we progress from stubble to hay, and from hay to wood.

Jesus counsels us to buy from Him what has already been tested in the fire. For that we need to be cleaned out by a baptism of fire.

Rev. 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

We are to offer up ourselves as a living sacrifice...holding nothing back. When our sacrifice is accepted by God...the fire comes down.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

@Episkopos @VictoryinJesus how can we destroy a passage of scripture so bad. That we can not comprehend what it says.

1 cor 3: For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

1. The foundation is Christ. Not ones works. Or what one gives up
2. In our lives, as children of God. We build on this foundation, Gold silver precious stone, or Wood hay and straw
3. Everyones works WILL become clear. Because that DAY ( a future day) Will declare it, because IT (their works) will be revealed by fire., that fire will TEST everyones works.
4. IN THAT DAY, If our work endured. We will recieve reward (Gold silver precious stone
5. But in that day, if it is burned (wood hay and straw( he will suffer loss IN THAT DAY, But HE HIMSELF WILL STILL BE SAVED (eternally) Even as though through fire.

The work we do to BUILD on the foundation, will endure forever.

the work we do that does not build on that foundation will be burned..and we will suffer loss

but no matter what. We will be saved.

This is not indoctrination. This is just taking the passage for what it says. And not trying to read into it something that is not there

There is no baptism of fire n this passage./ This fire will be quenched. It is not eternal..

 

[Episkopos]

@Episkopos @VictoryinJesus how can we destroy a passage of scripture so bad. That we can not comprehend what it says.

1 cor 3: For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

1. The foundation is Christ. Not ones works. Or what one gives up

This is a strawman...or it is based on a lack of reading skills. No one is saying that the foundation isn't Christ. The bible describes how we are to build on that foundation.

2. In our lives, as children of God. We build on this foundation, Gold silver precious stone, or Wood hay and straw
3. Everyones works WILL become clear. Because that DAY ( a future day) Will declare it, because IT (their works) will be revealed by fire., that fire will TEST everyones works.

You are confusing a future judgment and what we are to do now to be assured of a better outcome on that day. This is about wisdom. I don't expect many to get that.

4. IN THAT DAY, If our work endured. We will recieve reward (Gold silver precious stone
5. But in that day, if it is burned (wood hay and straw( he will suffer loss IN THAT DAY, But HE HIMSELF WILL STILL BE SAVED (eternally) Even as though through fire.

He will suffer loss if his works are burned up. There will be a downgrading of a person's salvation by either being sent into the nations or else being cast away into outer darkness.

The work we do to BUILD on the foundation, will endure forever.

It depends HOW we build. You are not reading at a high enough level to understand the meaning of the text.

the work we do that does not build on that foundation will be burned..and we will suffer loss

This is plainly a bad reading. You are doing the usual dance around the narrative. We are to be careful HOW we build. The flesh wants a guarantee that EVERY work will be accepted. But God doesn't respect the ego aspirations of "believers."

but no matter what. We will be saved.

Some to honour, and glory and others to dishonour, and shame.

This is not indoctrination. This is just taking the passage for what it says. And not trying to read into it something that is not there

That's all you are seemingly able to do. There are reading upgrades available online. But you will have to want to be honest in your reading.

There is no baptism of fire n this passage./ This fire will be quenched. It is not eternal..

The baptism of fire is what ensures that we are building with eternally tried materials. But continue to do as your wish. The warnings are obviously for others.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Paul indeed had his own wood, hay and stubble, burned up through a baptism of fire....that took away all the value he put on worldly things...even (temporally) honourable things...all that he might gain the higher walk that is found by abiding in Christ. From that walk he then was able to produce an eternal fruit (gold, silver, precious stones) that will stand up to the fire of testing on judgment day.

God's judgment will reveal the quality of what we do. If we pass through the baptism of fire NOW, then we can get on with an eternally fit produce of fruit to the glory of God.

Are we willing to lose all to gain Christ?

We are not talking here of a gradual loss...the loss is all or else there is nothing eternal about it. It's too easy to think we are advancing when we progress from stubble to hay, and from hay to wood.

Jesus counsels us to buy from Him what has already been tested in the fire. For that we need to be cleaned out by a baptism of fire.

Rev. 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

We are to offer up ourselves as a living sacrifice...holding nothing back. When our sacrifice is accepted by God...the fire comes down.

Thank you! I have never noticed “buy of me gold tried in the fire” …to me that says “Faith” that has been tried in the fire. That makes me think of in OT all the verses that says He has been tried and trusted. Isaiah 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believes shall not make haste.

But also the the fruit of the Spirit of God is …Faith by same Spirit that was in Christ.
2 Corinthians 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

Yes …thank you

 

[ChristisGod]

Paul indeed had his own wood, hay and stubble, burned up through a baptism of fire....that took away all the value he put on worldly things...even (temporally) honourable things...all that he might gain the higher walk that is found by abiding in Christ. From that walk he then was able to produce an eternal fruit (gold, silver, precious stones) that will stand up to the fire of testing on judgment day.

God's judgment will reveal the quality of what we do. If we pass through the baptism of fire NOW, then we can get on with an eternally fit produce of fruit to the glory of God.

Are we willing to lose all to gain Christ?

We are not talking here of a gradual loss...the loss is all or else there is nothing eternal about it. It's too easy to think we are advancing when we progress from stubble to hay, and from hay to wood.

Jesus counsels us to buy from Him what has already been tested in the fire. For that we need to be cleaned out by a baptism of fire.

Rev. 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

We are to offer up ourselves as a living sacrifice...holding nothing back. When our sacrifice is accepted by God...the fire comes down.

More false teaching. Where in the N.T. after Saul was born again.converted,saved in Acts 9 does Paul have any wood, hay or stubble in his life as a believer ?

Your false teaching as a false prophet and accuser of the brethren here and the Apostle Paul exposed once again.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Behold]

Paul indeed had his own wood, hay and stubble, burned up through a baptism of fire....that took away all the value he put on worldly things...even (temporally) honourable things...all that he might gain the higher walk that is found by abiding in Christ.

Does anyone know what Cult teaches that the Judgement seat of Christ that happens after the born again die, happened to Paul while he was on earth?
This is a very queer Theology....Ive never heard that one and ive heard most of them.

So, can anyone tell me where this bizarre theology of attributing to Paul while he was on earth, = what happened to Him after He met Jesus in Eternity............what cult teaches this?

What cult teaches this? Or what cultist commentary teaches such incredibly wrong theology?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

@Episkopos @VictoryinJesus how can we destroy a passage of scripture so bad. That we can not comprehend what it says.

1 cor 3: For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

1. The foundation is Christ. Not ones works. Or what one gives up
2. In our lives, as children of God. We build on this foundation, Gold silver precious stone, or Wood hay and straw
3. Everyones works WILL become clear. Because that DAY ( a future day) Will declare it, because IT (their works) will be revealed by fire., that fire will TEST everyones works.
4. IN THAT DAY, If our work endured. We will recieve reward (Gold silver precious stone
5. But in that day, if it is burned (wood hay and straw( he will suffer loss IN THAT DAY, But HE HIMSELF WILL STILL BE SAVED (eternally) Even as though through fire.

The work we do to BUILD on the foundation, will endure forever.

the work we do that does not build on that foundation will be burned..and we will suffer loss

but no matter what. We will be saved.

This is not indoctrination. This is just taking the passage for what it says. And not trying to read into it something that is not there

There is no baptism of fire n this passage./ This fire will be quenched. It is not eternal..

Trying to think of what to tell you. That is how I read the passage and I am sharing with you how I read it. Not to put you down but I want you to be encouraged. You said “there is no baptism of fire” Christ said “I will baptize you with fire”. To prepare, to cleanse, to remove the “wood, hay, stubble”. That is a blessing. To be found in Him (tried) not having our own righteousness but the righteousness (tried and true and sure) that comes from God. But at the same time, many turn away. Consider when He told them you must eat my flesh and drink my blood. Many were offended and turned from Him.

I think you misunderstood me by loss of all things. I’m not suggesting a show of outward appearances to try to be saved. I’m suggesting. “Oh God please search my heart! Let my heart be tried and the hay, stubble and wood be burned.” If Paul had not been baptized by the fire Christ baptizes with…then we would still be talking about the wood, hay, and stubble of Saul. We would be talking about a Pharisees fanatic persecuting Jesus Christ. Because that was the wood, hay, and stubble “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me?” “WHO are you?” “I am Jesus of Nazareth.”

I thought of other verses last night in regards to tested and tried by fire, the baptism of Christ…for example you must lose house, father, mother, even your own life, or you can not be my disciple. Or he who saves his life will loose it, he who looses his life will find it. —but I didn’t post them because it would surely appear I was promoting…being good enough to earn deliverance. Often those passages are turned into a man who leaves his family to go minister saying God told him to forsake his family to minister. To me that IS NOT what those verses mean but instead the man is leaving and abandoning his family to chase his own image…not Christ. (Or that is my opinion which I’m only sharing with you to clarify) …as also pastors who crave the attention and status of leading a church but won’t be bothered with leading their family. That is a lot of opinion from me and maybe I’m wrong but still those passage from Christ still say there will be loss with persecutions but what is gained is a better; tried and true.

Still I love those verses I keep going on about. To me they are hopeful and not accusing. To me Paul still fits there to a tee… having suffered the loss of all things to win Christ. The same Spirit that was in Christ in Paul. Indeed tested and tried by fire and found: sure. That same Spirit Becoming the corner stone of the foundation laid in Christ.