How are we to reckon ourselves as being dead to sin?
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Waiting on him
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I like to call it roll playing.The imagination is very active with these. But pretending has no effect on reality. Not even if it is religious in nature.
Yes. Agreed. But just because a role is available doesn't mean we have to be the one who plays it. Just because the truth needs to be shut down doesn't mean we need to be the one who volunteers to do it.
Many spirits have gone out into the world. We don't have to accommodate any of them...save for the Spirit of truth.
You are deflecting--would you agree that a person MUST/DEI be born again?
Do not marvel that I said to you, It is necessary for you to be born again, born anew.
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
If their god is this vindictive murderer they claim he is then he is contrary to his own laws.
Put your indoctrination aside for one second...and answer this. Born again for what???
We must do many things. We must take the garbage out. If we don't we will be overrun with vermin and the place will stink. Will we go to hell? No.
We must brush our teeth. If we don't we might get tooth decay and bad breath. Will be go to hell? No.
We must be born again. Why? (now finish the statement with a verse that says we go to hell if we are not)
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Still deflecting--would you agree that YOU MUST/DEI be born again?
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
I
I thought you were one of these who believed you were created in the image of god, woven together by him in your mothers womb?
I am selective in whom I'm dealing with on this Forum-what you bring to the table does not interest me-you are, what I would call, a "hanger on" blown away by diverse doctrines-
In this way, we are no longer olalim tossed by waves and carried around by every wind of limmud , by the cunning of Bnei Adam, with craftiness leading to the scheming of remiyah and madduchei shav ; [YESHAYAH 57:20]
But the resha'im are like the troubled yam (sea), when it cannot sheket (be quiet), whose mayim cast up mire and mud.
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
For those who struggle with what it means to be born again...and who feel they must claim to be so to be saved.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh. If we are physically alive we normally have the temporal faculties to navigate our way through the physical world. We are present and aware...given a temporal consciousness in the environment of the temporal world. We lose our awareness, and our temporal consciousness of the physical world when we sleep.
That which is born of Spirit is Spirit. The only way to enter into the realm of the Spirit, and be given spiritual faculties, is to be born of the Spirit. Is this necessary to be saved from sin? Yes. Only the higher kingdom spiritual walk empowers a person with resurrection life. The Holy Spirit gives us an eternal awareness...an eternal consciousness...otherwise we are spiritually dead or asleep.
Is it necessary to be born again to inherit life after death? No. There has never been a cancelling of the lower standard of righteousness. We are still to love our neighbours as ourselves. We will still be judged by what we have done with what we have been given.
By claiming to be born again, we put ourselves into a much harder judgment category. With that claim we will be judged against every saint that ever lived. So then it is foolish to claim to be something we are not. We are not to esteem ourselves to be MORE than we are. The fire of judgment will reveal the truth about who and what we are.
Why isn't there a warning against claiming to be LESS than we are? God loves the humble.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh. If we are physically alive we normally have the temporal faculties to navigate our way through the physical world. We are present and aware...given a temporal consciousness in the environment of the temporal world. We lose our awareness, and our temporal consciousness of the physical world when we sleep.
That which is born of Spirit is Spirit. The only way to enter into the realm of the Spirit, and be given spiritual faculties, is to be born of the Spirit. Is this necessary to be saved from sin? Yes. Only the higher kingdom spiritual walk empowers a person with resurrection life. The Holy Spirit gives us an eternal awareness...an eternal consciousness...otherwise we are spiritually dead or asleep.
Is it necessary to be born again to inherit life after death? No. There has never been a cancelling of the lower standard of righteousness. We are still to love our neighbours as ourselves. We will still be judged by what we have done with what we have been given.
By claiming to be born again, we put ourselves into a much harder judgment category. With that claim we will be judged against every saint that ever lived. So then it is foolish to claim to be something we are not. We are not to esteem ourselves to be MORE than we are. The fire of judgment will reveal the truth about who and what we are.
Why isn't there a warning against claiming to be LESS than we are? God loves the humble.
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This is an example of sowing confusion. It's a technique you often use, which God isn't the author of, so we have to ask what spirit it is of. God is not a teddy bear to anyone and I never said He was. He is not a respecter of persons. Anyone who doesn't submit to the Lamb can expect to have to face the Lion. What I've been saying is that it's wrong to try and sugar-coat that because it disarms the warnings that are given for our good.....do you agree with me on that point then?
Of course He hates those things you listed. Why do you assume that people here are smug and judgmental hypocrites who have no fear of God? That is based on your false belief/teaching about the foundational things.......you have to believe that about everyone who doesn't believe the same as you in order to keep your wrong belief going, rather than consider that it might be in error. Sure there are those in the church who are like that and they need to be corrected and properly taught. Why do the scriptures instruct the church about such things....because it's a common human failing that comes from the flesh, not because it is from wrong doctrine. The early church wasn't wallowing in a wrong doctrine, yet they were being taught and instructed and admonished.
Absolutely He gives grace to the humble....any wrong attitudes we may have need to be put down. Certainly we don't want to ship-wreck our faith, but I hope you will examine yourself and make sure that isn't what happened to you. We all need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
Who here is mocking? Bring the examples please. People here have been discussing this in all seriousness, out of serious concern, I assure you.
That is your wrong assumption and accusation about me, based on your assumption that anyone who doesn't believe as you do must have a wrong attitude about everything. I certainly do believe we are to die to ourselves, as you should know since we have discussed this before. Not to mention I have brought scriptures about loving not our lives to the death. And how many times have I tried to get the conversation moving on to "going on to perfection". What is YOUR attitude to needing to admit to a mistake and dying to what you think you know in order to preserve your "psuche"?
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
I
Yeah, I’m not so certain I’ve been born again. I do believe I have the Spirit of God though, but it appears Johann doesn’t believe this to be the case. I could be wrong though. I have a hard time understanding his posts.
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
I also don’t believe I have anything to be saved from. I don’t believe for one minute that I’m awaiting some pending doom where the father wishes to murder me.
So you make a sharp distinction between "born again" and "born of the Spirit"-when there is none?
“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.--
Read the Scriptures-are you really saying we don't "need to be born again?" Yes or no--that's all I want to know from you
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
1 Peter 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
Romans 6:3
Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
1 Peter 1:23
for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.
Acts 2:38
Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Galatians 3:26
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Titus 3:5
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Romans 10:9-10
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Genesis 2:7
Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
John 3:3-7
Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Ephesians 2:1
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
Colossians 2:13
When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
John 3:16
Verse Concepts
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
James 1:18
Verse Concepts
In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.
1 Corinthians 2:14
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
1 Peter 1:22-25
Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart, for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God. For,
“All flesh is like grass,
And all its glory like the flower of grass.
The grass withers,
And the flower falls off,
John 1:12
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
Romans 6:4
Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
Colossians 2:12
having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
Romans 8:9
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
John 1:13
who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Colossians 2:11
and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
VictoryinJesus
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2 Corinthians 4:1-2 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; [2] But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
Only those who are born again, born from above, born of the spirit, have the Holy Spirit in them, have Christ in you the hope of Glory have eternal life. Only those who are born again are saved, have eternal life , have been transferred from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of God/heaven. We are born again, become children of God through the new birth being born of God through believing in and receiving Christ.
You teach a false gospel of entering Gods kingdom, being saved apart form the new birth, apart from being transformed by Gods spirit, without being a new creation in Christ denying the old man has been buried in baptism and the new man has been raised/resurrected with Christ. You deny man is born again. through the gospel message by the word of God-
1 Peter 1:23-For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
1 Peter 1:3-Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By His great mercy He has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
James 1:18- He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation.
John 1:12-13- Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
John 3:3- Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Eternal life has always been by faith. That is what the scriptures teach. The old testament saints who "without us would not be made perfect"...all had faith. As apart from those who didn't have a living relationship with God by faith, but who nevertheless kept the Law. If we learn anything from the Old Testament at all it is that keeping the Laws of God resulted in blessings in THIS life, which are only reflective of the spiritual blessings to come with the New Covenant ( which include eternal life). That's why Isaiah cried out that though the number of the Israelites be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant would be saved. Saved because they had FAITH, not because of Law keeping apart from faith.
This might be a bit controversial, just putting it out there, but I have wondered about the possibility that what we are calling born again is on one level a conception...like Mary of who it was said, "that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit". We have eternal life, but Christ in us needs to be born....to be made manifest, to be fully revealed. I believe that is what we are aiming for even if it doesn't manifest in this life. When Jesus comes He will be revealed IN His saints. I think there are kind of two levels of truth here, with being born again, if only I could explain it properly. I struggle to understand if this is possible in this life, or must wait for the return of Christ....whether there is the possibility of a personal level of Christ returning, as well as corporate historical. Or if that is just our hope....and the bible says who already has what he hopes for?
There is a reference in Hosea:
Hos 9:11
As for Ephraim, their glory shall fly away like a bird, from the birth, and from the womb, and from the conception.
VictoryinJesus
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“Compare that self-preservational attitude with Paul who was willing to lose his salvation ...his precious foundation of self...so that his brethren might be saved. Compare your attitude to that of Moses who defended his people...even when he could have smugly condemned them and got away with it.”
LOVE what you said. I Went to bed last night wrestling with where are you God?
Then this morning reading your post, you reminded me. What you said above …to me is Him perfectly. He who had all the riches but became poor that we might be made rich. There is His Spirit.
I still need a break from here. One verse that stands out to me is “wait on your ministry”. Emphasis on “wait” for the gift of the Spirit. has always stood out to me. To me meaning don’t try to get ahead of Him. But wait. The other day while painting the trim in our house…it became clear what I should be doing instead of fighting on here. Thank you for all that you have shared …even when I was in the beginning attacking you with my already presumed “I know everything already about this guy.” I’m sorry I presumed so much.
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