How are we to reckon ourselves as being dead to sin?

[Michiah-Imla]

Which spirit?

“Quench not the Spirit.” (1 Thessalonians 5:19)

Which spirit Paul?

Is that how you read the Bible?

Then you are deluded, my friend...

I’m crucified.

“And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” (Galatians 5:24)

It's very important to know yourself...not just the bible you think agrees with your every interpretation.

It’s very important to know God and listen to his word.

Not to add nor to take away from it to elevate oneself.

I turn my desires to what God desires based on his word.

The word “interpretation” is thrown around by those who are interpreters themselves.

Don’t be an interpreter of the word, be a consumer and proclaimer of it!

“Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, eat that thou findest; eat this roll, and go speak unto the house of Israel.” (Ezekiel 3:1)

“And thou shalt speak my words unto them, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear: for they are most rebellious.” (Ezekiel 2:7)

Why does everybody think their way is right?

My way and YOUR way is wrong.

God’s ways are right.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The question is what is it saying to you. How are you interpreting the passage. What is the process in thinking that what you think is actually true...for you.

I have said many times that being crucified and raised again to resurrection life is by a WHOLE measure of grace that very few will seek after and find. Why? Because they have been conditioned to accept a sample...a free sample...as the whole thing.

Have I not said that many times?

Do you keep Jesus' words in mind as you are reading what Paul wrote...or are you able to ignore all the parables as you surmise what you think Paul's writings are telling you?

How are the parable of Christ fulfilled in your understanding of Paul? How does what you believe about yourself line up with other authors of the bible?

it says we have!!!

not that we seek. Or we find, it says we have

 

[amigo de christo]

1. establish by counting or calculation; calculate:
   "his debts were reckoned at $300,000" · "the Byzantine year was reckoned from September 1"
   SIMILAR:
   calculate
   compute
   work out
   put a figure on
   figure
   number
2. consider or regard in a specified way:
   "the event was reckoned a failure" · "these prisoners are reckoned to be the most dangerous"
   SIMILAR:
   regard as
   consider
   judge
   hold to be
   view
   think of as
   • (RECKON SOMEONE OR SOMETHING AMONG)
     include someone or something in (a class or group):
     "in college he was always reckoned among the brainiest"
     SIMILAR:
     include
     count
     number
     consider to be
     deem to be
3. INFORMAL
   be of the opinion:
   "he reckons that the army should pull out entirely" · "I reckon I can manage that"
   SIMILAR:
   believe
   think
   be of the opinion
   be of the view
   be convinced
   • NE OR SOMETHING AMONG)
   • • 
       include someone or something in (a class or group):
       "in college he was always reckoned among the brainiest"
       SIMILAR:
       include
       count
       number
       consider to be
       deem to be
   • INFORMAL
     be of the opinion:
     "he reckons that the army should pull out entirely" · "I reckon I can manage that"
     SIMILAR:
     believe
     think
     be of the opinion
     be of the view
     be convinced
     
     • to reckon oneself dead to sin , its as simple as that .

 

[Episkopos]

The problem with many in the churches is they are being taught to reckon yourselves alive unto sin
they are not being taught about the power of Christ to transform the life , rather that are taught we
are always slaves to sin . ONLY the flesh is a slave to sin , only the old man is a slave to sin .
HEED the SPIRIT , not the flesh and ye will not fullfill the lusts of the flesh .

OK You are able to post a cogent argument after all. :) I agree. I posted a letter from Luther earlier that shows that he in no way thought that sin could be conquered while in the mortal body. That's not giving Gd much credit for what His grace can do.

Grace is the power that overcomes sin. But we need faith to receive that power.

And yes, we can be led by the Spirit in such a way that we are able to overcome sin...with much difficulty. Luther tried this and was unable to fully conquer sin..so he gave up and devised a scheme whereby grace cancels out sins...pretending they are no longer there.

But the power of the cross is sufficient to crucify the outer man and empower the inner man with resurrection life as per Gal. 2:20

HOW? That's the biggest question in church history that is never looked at at any depth. But it is the way FORWARD if we can grasp it.

And that is that we need to seek God's face with ALL our faith so that we can get a NEW LEVEL of faith through grace...or grace through faith...to walk as Jesus walked.

And the angels rejoice at the glory of God.

So where does it say that?

Gal. 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Can you see the two levels of faith here??? Faith OF Christ given to them that believe. Faith given to believers. From faith to faith.

It's God praising time. :)

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Hello to all. I think it important to understand the context of everything we read about in the bible. It's too easy to misunderstand and jump to false conclusions based on an unbalanced and unlearned assumption, unless we look as deeply as possible into how it fits into the ways of God.

On this thread, I would like to look at how are are to reckon ourselves to be dead to sin....using the OT, and NT...and hopefully with some testimonials.

Any post that is not applicable to the subject matter I will respond with a "Stay on Topic" comment.

Now in Romans 6:11 we read...

" Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Is this a kind of magic formula that one must accept as being life-giving in itself? As in...fake it till you make it?

I think the last thing that God wants is for people to accept the bible anecdotally....religiously.... There is no need or desire for that.

We need to go to the OT to see where the pattern of God's ways based on reckoning can be consulted for greater clarity in the present circumstance. With the next verse we see a call to spiritual militancy.

Joel 3:10 "Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong."

James continues with this theme...

James 1:9 Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted:
10 But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.

V. 10 is very telling and apropos for we who live in the rich Western countries. Especially seeing that sound doctrine is seen by many as being so hostile (to the flesh).


We see with this, the "make the way straight in the desert for our God" from Is. 40.....filling in the valleys and making the mountains low. I would say that the major problem we have is the exaltation of the flesh rather than the rejoicing at being made low. It is the council of James in reverse for many of us.

So we, in our estimation, need to see our default setting as considering sin, and the lifestyle associated with it, as being dead to us. Does that mean we can claim to be without sin by a mere reckoning? We can only reckon with our mind. Our reckoning helps to line up our way of thinking with the direction we are hoping to go in. Only God can rescue us from the power of the flesh.

We can indeed ALWAYS triumph over the flesh..but that takes the power of the cross and walking in the Spirit. Reckoning ourselves to be dead to sin is akin to carrying our own cross...not being crucified on the cross of Christ. That is at a whole other level and at a depth that very few will be able to comprehend let alone experience.

Joel 3:10 "Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong."

Isaiah 2:4-5 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. [5] O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the Lord.

Thank you for your entire post. With all you said a passage that (to me) shows what you said in application is:
2 Corinthians 13:3-9 Since you seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you. [4] For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he lives by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you. [5] Examine yourselves, whether you be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know you not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except you be reprobates? [6] But I trust that you will know that we are not reprobates. [7] Now I pray to God that you do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that you should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates. [8] For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth. [9] For we are glad, when we are weak, and you are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.

^ pruning?


^ the above passage (2 Corinthians 13:3-9) demonstrates (Imo) “let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted. But the rich, in that he is made low…because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.

James 1:9 Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted:
10 But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.

 

[Episkopos]

I’m crucified.

“And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” (Galatians 5:24)

OK. Now we are getting somewhere. You say you are crucified. How do you know you are crucified? Because you read it in the bible and think you need to say it and that makes it real? OR...you are dead to sin and walk like a shell of a man in utter weakness so that people think you might be sick or ailing because you exert NO OUTWARD STRENGTH AT ALL.

Paul knew what it was to be crucified with Christ. His bodily presence was weak...in fear and trembling. The stuffing was knocked out of him by the cross..so that the weak inner man could be empowered by grace to walk in a heavenly kingdom dimension. Paul knew what death looked like...and what resurrection life was..in communion with the living God..full of eternal joy and peace...walking WAY above sin and the attractions of this world.

Is that what you mean???

 

[Episkopos]

Joel 3:10 "Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong."

Isaiah 2:4-5 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. [5] O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the Lord.

Thank you for your entire post. With all you said a passage that (to me) shows what you said in application is:
2 Corinthians 13:3-9 Since you seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you. [4] For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he lives by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you. [5] Examine yourselves, whether you be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know you not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except you be reprobates? [6] But I trust that you will know that we are not reprobates. [7] Now I pray to God that you do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that you should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates. [8] For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth. [9] For we are glad, when we are weak, and you are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.

^ pruning?


^ the above passage (2 Corinthians 13:3-9) demonstrates (Imo) “let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted. But the rich, in that he is made low…because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.

Thank you. Your presence is as a breath of fresh air... :)

 

[Michiah-Imla]

How do you know you are crucified? Because you read it in the bible

Because my affections and lusts no longer govern what I do.

It’s not complicated.

And being familiar with how the saints walked in the scriptures help us understand these things.

 

[Episkopos]

Look at how it is expressed in Psalms...an amazing prophetic statement that we need to understand in these perilous times.

Ps. 84:7 "They go from strength to strength, Every one of them in Zion appears before God."

Actually the Hebrew says more like... 'Who look to God in Zion". In the LXX it says "God will be seen in Zion. "

The strength is grace through faith. Now look at that kind of walk as described by Paul and HOW we get that level of walk and power...

Rom. 1:17 "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."

We only get to the righteousness of God on the higher level...the strength on top of strength (anointing)...the going from our faith to the faith OF Jesus Christ.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Thank you. Your presence is as a breath of fresh air... :)

another I think of with your OP is
Hebrews 12:12-13 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; [13] And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

I don’t know what I originally thought of to lift up the hands which hang down…but from OT it clarifies (Imo) it is to repent, to cry. Not to jump around in a gleeful dancing denial, but in repentance.

 

[Episkopos]

Because my affections and lusts no longer govern what I do.

It’s not complicated.

And being familiar with how the saints walked in the scriptures help us understand these things.

And that in itself is commendable. But is it at the level of what Paul is saying...what he is describing? We can't let what is good get in the way of the perfect.

If you knew there was a whole other level...the level of the saint...to walk in..wouldn't you want to at least look into it? I mean, rather than coming against the very thought of it as many do here.

Some of us are able to very much dampen the sin nature through faithful obedience. But that is not the gist of what God is looking for. He wants us to join with Him in Zion in the higher walk...for the sake of fellowship...and we will find that we conquer sin naturally..easily..on that level of intimacy with God. Jesus did say..my yoke is easy and my burden is light. That is IF we walk in Zion.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

He wants us to join with Him in Zion in the higher walk...

How is this done other than by being a flesh crucified - spirit walking - born again - new man saint?

What am I missing?

 

[Episkopos]

How is this done other than by being a flesh crucified - spirit walking - born again - new man saint?

What am I missing?

God has worked it out so that humility is the key...He has concluded ALL under sin...to draw us into a deeper walk with Him. In the end it's about the fellowship. The sin happens when we are out of fellowship with Him. At that level...whatever is not of faith is sin.

Can we resist temptation and be faithful to God's commandments? Well, some more than others. But the outer man (religious) rises up to defend a personal effort and the measure of success achieved...whereas God is looking for something FAR beyond our efforts at keeping the law.

I have written many posts here...I suggest you go back over them as I've already laid out the verses.

I see you having both...an inner man of faith AND an outer man of religious effort. You will vacillate...but I think your heart is good. I go hard on the outer man to get at the inner man. I'm actually only wanting to connect with the inner man.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

He has concluded ALL under sin...to draw us into a deeper walk with Him.

That is unscriptural.

Here’s the biblical reason:

“But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.” (Galatians 3:22)

This “deeper” and “higher walk” you keep speaking of is also unscriptural. Or are you labeling biblical doctrine in unbiblical terms?

I can’t figure you out. You seem to be speaking in secret society speak of some sort…

I have written many posts here...I suggest you go back over them as I've already laid out the verses.

I have read much of what you write.

It’s a mixed bag of truth and mystery…

 

[Wrangler]

This generation seems to be unappreciative of how accessible the holy scriptures are to them as they seem to diminish its importance on “paper and ink”

I personally find this attitude abominable!

Several years ago I told a young man, who sports a long beard, about a passage in the OT about not cutting his beard. A few weeks later with some friends teasing him about it, he pulled out the Scriptural reference.

They discredited the reference to Scripture on the grounds that he looked it up on his smart phone and not a paper and ink book. Amazing!

 

[Lizbeth]

And that in itself is commendable. But is it at the level of what Paul is saying...what he is describing? We can't let what is good get in the way of the perfect.

If you knew there was a whole other level...the level of the saint...to walk in..wouldn't you want to at least look into it? I mean, rather than coming against the very thought of it as many do here.

Some of us are able to very much dampen the sin nature through faithful obedience. But that is not the gist of what God is looking for. He wants us to join with Him in Zion in the higher walk...for the sake of fellowship...and we will find that we conquer sin naturally..easily..on that level of intimacy with God. Jesus did say..my yoke is easy and my burden is light. That is IF we walk in Zion.

For what it's worth, I don't entirely disagree with everything you are saying on this subject. Just that I am not seeing this has to be an either/or case of pitting one truth against another. The carnal mind sees a contradiction here, but the mind of Christ doesn't. We need to acknowledge the foundational truths before going on to perfection. They do not contradict how we still need to grow and the "all things that are possible" in Christ.

 

[APAK]

OK You are able to post a cogent argument after all. :) I agree. I posted a letter from Luther earlier that shows that he in no way thought that sin could be conquered while in the mortal body. That's not giving Gd much credit for what His grace can do.

Grace is the power that overcomes sin. But we need faith to receive that power.

And yes, we can be led by the Spirit in such a way that we are able to overcome sin...with much difficulty. Luther tried this and was unable to fully conquer sin..so he gave up and devised a scheme whereby grace cancels out sins...pretending they are no longer there.

But the power of the cross is sufficient to crucify the outer man and empower the inner man with resurrection life as per Gal. 2:20

HOW? That's the biggest question in church history that is never looked at at any depth. But it is the way FORWARD if we can grasp it.

And that is that we need to seek God's face with ALL our faith so that we can get a NEW LEVEL of faith through grace...or grace through faith...to walk as Jesus walked.

And the angels rejoice at the glory of God.

So where does it say that?

Gal. 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Can you see the two levels of faith here??? Faith OF Christ given to them that believe. Faith given to believers. From faith to faith.

It's God praising time. :)

Sorry, I just cannot see what you see in this scripture of your post here Epi. Even after going over them again and again, with your understanding and imagined insight of them. I do see however, now knowing a bit of your personal history in this subject, you have read your personal experiences into to them to make scripture support these experiences. Just saying...

Nowhere in scripture does it ever say or strongly infer we can shed our flesh and completely separate our sinful nature from the new maturing nature of God via Christ's spirit indwelt in us -and then to become perfect and sinless in this body today. It is quite impossible and per scripture, eventhough writers like Paul strived to attain it in his mind and knew in reality it was a goal that would be only realized after his earthly life. And that is why he wished he could be present in perfection and with God - to be translated in his life as a much better thing, and I agree.

Again as I said before, this is a new gospel you are preaching here and in this gospel very few are actually resurrected to new life in Christ of/from the Father in the Kingdom.

In faith today I'm resurrected and reborn in the spiritual image of God via his Son's spiritual seed within me, of new life in the Kingdom today. I have this resurrection walk and life today, don't you?

Blessings...

 

[Episkopos]

For what it's worth, I don't entirely disagree with everything you are saying on this subject. Just that I am not seeing this has to be an either/or case of pitting one truth against another. The carnal mind sees a contradiction here, but the mind of Christ doesn't. We need to acknowledge the foundational truths before going on to perfection. They do not contradict how we still need to grow and the "all things that are possible" in Christ.

If one understands that whether if one is on the ground floor or upstairs on the second floor. ...we are all in the same house....the house of God. The doctrine of Christ...that I teach ...takes both levels into account. Whether we are present or absent from the Lord (on the second level) we are to do all things to walk in an acceptable manner...not adding sin to sin by limiting God and relying on the carnal understanding.

My function in the Body is like a mirror. Those who are in iniquity will hate that there is a level of faith, power, and understanding beyond what they presently know of. That gets the outer man's religious pride in a snit...and what is really the spirit of Cain...if you understand the prophetic nature of the race of faith. They will say that I am the one doing exactly what they are doing. Too often, God's perspective is not understood nor will people accept it as other than just one more opinion. People can't discern the oracle of God amidst the noise of public opinion.

But to limit God to a growth into Christ while remaining on the first floor...trying to improve oneself into Christ while claiming to see and be rich...is error. The church in Laodicea serves as a warning to all who esteem the gift of an initial grace to be enough to CLAIM to have ALL the fulness of God...all the fulness of grace...and all the fulness of faith......while denying a walk that is holy and without blemish. We forego leaving room for God (or leaving Him out) at our peril. Jesus says...buy from Me.

Holiness demands a proper respect for the truth at that level. It demands a fear of the Lord...for one's own safety. Let us not limit God as the Israelites tested God in the wilderness...and so left their carcasses there. As Paul said...be not high-minded but fear...lest any of us also be cut off as they were.

 

[Episkopos]

Sorry, I just cannot see what you see in this scripture of your post here Epi. Even after going over them again and again, with your understanding and imagine insight of them. I do see however, now knowing a bit of your personal history in this subject, you have read your personal experiences into to them to make scripture support these experiences. Just saying...

Nowhere in scripture does it ever say or strongly infer we can shed our flesh and completely separate our sinful nature from the new maturing nature of God via Christ's spirit indwelt in us -and then to become perfect and sinless in this body today. It is quite impossible and per scripture, eventhough writers like Paul strived to attain it in his mind and knew in reality it was a goal that would be only realized after his earthly life. And that is why he wished he come be present in perfection and with God - to be translated in his life as a much better thing, and I agree.

Again as I said before, this is a new gospel you are preaching here and in this gospel very few are actually resurrected to new life in Christ of/from the Father in the Kingdom.

In faith today I'm resurrected and reborn in the spiritual image of God via his Son's spiritual seed within me, of new life in the Kingdom today. I have this resurrection walk and life today, don't you?

Blessings...

You remember how God's covenant with Abraham entailed a cutting in two (dividing them in the midst v-10) to allow God to walk between the pieces of Abraham's sacrifice? (Gen. 15:7-21) Also recall that the word of God cuts between the soul and spirit..and the joint and marrow? (Heb. 4:12)

The New Covenant is based on a separation ...a cutting away...of the outer man from the inner man. God walks THROUGH us in the New Covenant the way He walked through Abraham's sacrifice. As such we ourselves become a living sacrifice.

To get the double blessing that is in Christ we need to be cut in two...crucified...with the outer man cut away...according to the circumcision of the heart.

Whether people can see that or appreciate that has no bearing on the spiritual reality. We can make up a religious scenario...but there is no power in it. Only with God's ways are life and peace.

 

[amigo de christo]

OK You are able to post a cogent argument after all. :) I agree. I posted a letter from Luther earlier that shows that he in no way thought that sin could be conquered while in the mortal body. That's not giving Gd much credit for what His grace can do.

Grace is the power that overcomes sin. But we need faith to receive that power.

And yes, we can be led by the Spirit in such a way that we are able to overcome sin...with much difficulty. Luther tried this and was unable to fully conquer sin..so he gave up and devised a scheme whereby grace cancels out sins...pretending they are no longer there.

But the power of the cross is sufficient to crucify the outer man and empower the inner man with resurrection life as per Gal. 2:20

HOW? That's the biggest question in church history that is never looked at at any depth. But it is the way FORWARD if we can grasp it.

And that is that we need to seek God's face with ALL our faith so that we can get a NEW LEVEL of faith through grace...or grace through faith...to walk as Jesus walked.

And the angels rejoice at the glory of God.

So where does it say that?

Gal. 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Can you see the two levels of faith here??? Faith OF Christ given to them that believe. Faith given to believers. From faith to faith.

It's God praising time. :)

Not two levels of faith at all . One faith is dead . THE ONLY faith that matters and that will also produce good fruits
and saves , IS BELIEVE YE IN JESUS CHRIST .
Buddists can do a lot of good things for and to people , but they aint saved , lest they come to CHRIST JESUS .
And damnation awaits all who rejected the gospel . And that is a fact .