Homosexuality

[marksman]

This reminds me of something I learned

A question arises as to why God created woman out of Adam’s rib as He did, when He apparently had formed male and female animals individually.

God used part of the male to form the female to show that they were actually the same created being, two halves of a whole.

There fore by supporting and thus encouraging homosexality it keeps these people from being whole and sharing in the kingdom of God

Thats makes any church or Christian who supports the sin of homosexuality as much or more guilty than the sinner himself.

Im sure those in Sodom and Gomorrah used all this same kind of human reasoning I see in the world today look where it got them

A very pertinent comment if I may say so.

 

[FHII]

A very pertinent comment if I may say so.

SO you don't believe grace covers all sins?

 

[Foreigner]

Jesus' blood covers all sins...

...but only if the sinner acknowledges the sin, asks for forgiveness and repents.

 

[aspen]

Jesus' blood covers all sins...

...but only if the sinner acknowledges the sin, asks for forgiveness and repents.

But first he has to be convicted by the HS, in his heart of the sin in question.

 

[Foreigner]

And the Holy Spirit uses Christians to speak with them and when they heard God's Word, the Holy Spirit works to convict them.

That is why Jesus told Christians to spread the news to the four corners of the earth.

He didn't say, "Sit back. I will send the Holy Spirit and that will draw the lost to you."

 

[aspen]

And the Holy Spirit uses Christians to speak with them and when they heard God's Word, the Holy Spirit works to convict them.

That is why Jesus told Christians to spread the news to the four corners of the earth.

He didn't say, "Sit back. I will send the Holy Spirit and that will draw the lost to you."

Spreading the good news and convicting people of personal sin are different. We are called to encourage people to repent of the sins that the HS has convicted them of. We can talk about sin against God, but we cannot personally convict people of those sins. The HS works on His own timetable to convict people of personal sin - who are we to blame people for continuing to sin when they have not be convicted yet?

 

[Foreigner]

Spreading the good news and convicting people of personal sin are different. We are called to encourage people to repent of the sins that the HS has convicted them of. We can talk about sin against God, but we cannot personally convict people of those sins. The HS works on His own timetable to convict people of personal sin - who are we to blame people for continuing to sin when they have not be convicted yet?

-- But the Holy Spirit first uses people to point out that something actually is a sin. If people decided that it isn't a sin, the Holy Spirit uses people to help them understand that just because it is their opinion doesn't make it God's fact.

By pointing out scripture, using divine reasoning, and praying with and for them, they receive the understanding from the Holy Spirit. This involves actual contact.

That is the way it has been done since Christ gave the Great Commission and Paul, Peter, Stephen, Timothy, and the rest went out and preached to people that they are living in sin need to repent and turn away from their sin. The Holy Spirit was with them and used them as It's voice.

Your 'Hands Off' policy goes against what Christ Himself calls Christians to do and is one of the reasons that millions of people are dying today without knowing Jesus.

 

[aspen]

-- But the Holy Spirit first uses people to point out that something actually is a sin. If people decided that it isn't a sin, the Holy Spirit uses people to help them understand that just because it is their opinion doesn't make it God's fact.

By pointing out scripture, using divine reasoning, and praying with and for them, they receive the understanding from the Holy Spirit. This involves actual contact.

That is the way it has been done since Christ gave the Great Commission and Paul, Peter, Stephen, Timothy, and the rest went out and preached to people that they are living in sin need to repent and turn away from their sin. The Holy Spirit was with them and used them as It's voice.

Your 'Hands Off' policy goes against what Christ Himself calls Christians to do and is one of the reasons that millions of people are dying today without knowing Jesus.

Speaking in a general way about sin is not a problem. I have never claimed that homosexuality is not a sin. I have claimed that every homosexual who lives in modern society knows that homosexuality is shunned by society and many Christians because it has traditionally been interpreted as a sin. You can see this fact at any gay parade - youtube, gay parade and watch the homosexuals fight against the Biblical condemnation of homosexuality! Therefore, I reject the idea that I need to point out homosexuality as a sin every time I talk to my gay friends. It is my job to love them and wait on the HS to convict them. All we can do is inform them of sin - in the case of homosexuality, they are clearly informed.

 

[Foreigner]

Speaking in a general way about sin is not a problem. I have never claimed that homosexuality is not a sin. I have claimed that every homosexual who lives in modern society knows that homosexuality is shunned by society and many Christians because it has traditionally been interpreted as a sin. You can see this fact at any gay parade - youtube, gay parade and watch the homosexuals fight against the Biblical condemnation of homosexuality! Therefore, I reject the idea that I need to point out homosexuality as a sin every time I talk to my gay friends. It is my job to love them and wait on the HS to convict them. All we can do is inform them of sin - in the case of homosexuality, they are clearly informed.

-- Aspen, there is nothing in my statement that even implies you don't believe homosexuality is a sin. That isn't the problem.
The actual problem is when you say: "Therefore, I reject the idea that I need to point out homosexuality as a sin every time I talk to my gay friends."
I have two comments on that:

First, No one who is witnessing points out a person's sin - regardless of what it is - every time they talk to them. Repeat: NO ONE
Your statement implies you are either being intentionally obtuse, or you have simply never actually witnessed the Gospel to someone before.
It amazes me that those that have never done something tend to speak the loudest as to how that something should actually be done.

Second, you yourself, in an older post stated that you have four gay friends and that you have NEVER told them you are a Christian or what you believe God says on homosexuality. You stated that one asked you if you are a Christian and your response was 'yes' but that was the extent of the conversation.
These are your own words, Aspen.

You may feel you know what all homosexuals know as far as how God and society feel about homosexuality, but you leave out the fact they are also getting incorrect information from a number of misguided Christians and churches that state that God wants them this way because He made them this way so what they practice isn't really a sin.
You don't seem to have a problem with that.

By YOU not voicing your beliefs to them, you leave them with the mistaken impression that that is also how YOU feel. By your choice of not clarifying for them and letting them know that you are telling them because you care for them, you are increasing their chance that they will end up in hell.



"It is my job to love them and wait on the HS to convict them." - Aspen

- And THAT is the greatest copout ever used by Christians who don't want to fulfill God's calling.
God tells us to go out and preach the Gospel of Good News to the four corners of the earth.
That means that you interact, not just to point out sin, but to tell them that they are loved by God, and that He died on the cross for their sins.
You let them know that ALL MEN have sinned. That God sees adultery, theft, dishonesty, etc. on the same level as homosexuality.
You let them know that you too were going to hell until you repented from your sin and gave your life to Christ.
You let them know that God loves them as much as He loves you and that He died for their sins, as well.

If God only wanted "awwww, I'll just wait and let the Holy Spirit convict them" then he would not have given His Great Commission.
The Holy Spirit speaks through His children when they witness.
AFTER the person has heard that God loves them with His whole heart, died on the cross to save them, and that they can be joint heirs with Him in heaven, THEN the Holy Spirit has a chance to work and convict and draw them to their knees.

If - as you put it - all they hear is that they are sinners, going to hell, etc. etc. etc. that leaves them with resentment, anger, rejection, hatred towards Christians......and very little that the Holy Spirit can work with.

You are lazily saying that the Holy Spirit will do all the work when in all actuality it is the Holy Spirit using people like you that actually gets the work done.

If you truly "loved" them as you claimed, you wouldn't leave their salvation to chance.....which is exactly what you are doing.

Again, it seems evident that you have never actually shared your fatih with someone outside Christian circles.

 

[aspen]

Wow! so allowing the HS to convict a person of personal sin is "leaving their salvation up to chance"?? Outrageous! If that is the size your faith you need serious prayer!

 

[Foreigner]

Wow! so allowing the HS to convict a person of personal sin is "leaving their salvation up to chance"??

-- You are either too inept to understand the written word or you are being intentionally ignorant.
In either case, it does not speak well for you.

I guess I was right. You have never shared your fatih with anyone outside your Christian circle.


Keep on "loving" them without sharing the Gospel. You are literally loving them to death.

And when you stand before God and He asks why you never told any of the four gays friends you say you have about Him, His love, and His forgiveness and left them with the misconceptions and deceptions they accepted, you feel free to tell Him it was His Holy Spirit that actually let them down.





.

 

[Tkinnie]

Why is this even a question... You know full well its a sin. ALl of us are BORN a certain way, have you not read the verse, since adam ate from the apple, SIN has crept in. Born into SIN and SHAPED in iniquity. That goes for all of us. SOme people are born gay, some people are born with anger issues, some people are born disobedient, some people are born tyrants. SO what if u were born gay, we are all born BENT away from god. Isaac and Jacob, one will rule over the other, that was established before birtth. SO one was born with the desire to rule and conqure, but the concern is once you KNOW JESUS< what will you do with it. Sin is sin, its man who puts the degree of sin in act, but god sees sin all the same.

 

[Duckybill]

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (ESV)
[sup]9 [/sup]Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [sup]10 [/sup]nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Some of you didn't take heed. You got deceived. And now you believe that the unrighteous will inherit the Kingdom of God, when God plainly says they will not.

 

[aspen]

[font="'Book Antiqua"]
Luke 6:31-33
New International Version (NIV)

[sup]31[/sup] Do to others as you would have them do to you.

[sup]32[/sup] “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. [sup]33[/sup] And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that.

We are called to love everyone. We are not called to convict everyone of personal sin. The HS convicts, we do what we were created to do and are being sanctified to do: love.


Romans 13:8-9

Love Fulfills the Law
[sup]8[/sup] Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. [sup]9[/sup] The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,”[sup][a][/sup] and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”


Romans 13:10

Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

We have caused tremendous harm to homosexuals in the church. Instead of embracing them and having faith in the HS to eventually convict them of all their sins, we have decided to exclude them from our congregations - placing a lesser value on a homosexual based on their "greater" sin. Of course, we should never shy away from preaching against all sins from the pulpit and in our witness, but we are not called to single out people who are being convicted by the HS - imparting this 'knowledge' in a redundant manner is much more harmful to the sinner than not confronting them, personally; especially if it is a private sin, which is not affecting the congregation.


1 Corinthians 8:1
[ Concerning Food Sacrificed to Idols ] Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that “We all possess knowledge.” But knowledge puffs up while love builds up.

This verse applies to all my approaches to witnessing - I try to witness with the intention of building up, rather than imparting my 'superior knowledge' in such a manner that causes harm. Using sarcasm and arrogant words to impart knowledge, does nothing for the person being annihilated; all it does is puff us up. It is sacrificing a potential relationship based on love and respect, for being 'RIGHT' in a protective, Pharisee-type manner.


1 Corinthians 13
[sup]1[/sup] If I speak in the tongues[sup][a][/sup] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. [sup]2[/sup] If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. [sup]3[/sup] If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[sup][b][/sup] but do not have love, I gain nothing.

[sup]4[/sup] Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. [sup]5[/sup] It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. [sup]6[/sup] Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. [sup]7[/sup] It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

[sup]8[/sup] Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. [sup]9[/sup] For we know in part and we prophesy in part, [sup]10[/sup] but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. [sup]11[/sup] When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. [sup]12[/sup]For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

[sup]13[/sup] And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Love is not proud - it does not celebrate in the crushing of an opponent. It views people through the lens of love, not combat. It always protects, rather than destroys. It communicates truth to the mind AND the heart. Mere knowledge does nothing to convict or promote behavior change - only mind and heart in agreement leads to behavior change.
[/font]

 

[Foreigner]

We are called to love everyone. We are not called to convict everyone of personal sin. The HS convicts, we do what we were created to do and are being sanctified to do: love.

-- "Loving" someone does not mean leaving the with the false ideas of what Christianity and God are about.
You are also still clueless (or intentionally obtuse) about how the Holy Spirit does His work.

We have caused tremendous harm to homosexuals in the church. Instead of embracing them and having faith in the HS to eventually convict them of all their sins, we have decided to exclude them from our congregations - placing a lesser value on a homosexual based on their "greater" sin. Of course, we should never shy away from preaching against all sins from the pulpit and in our witness, but we are not called to single out people who are being convicted by the HS - imparting this 'knowledge' in a redundant manner is much more harmful to the sinner than not confronting them, personally; especially if it is a private sin, which is not affecting the congregation.

-- I don't know what cave you live in but there are scores of churches across the United States that welcome homosexuals with open arms. They do not "exclude" them from their congregations. I have never been in or seen a church where, if the person is admittedly a homosexual and wants to attend, they are turned away. And if they do not renounce homosexuality they are not shown the door.

My church has a number of homosexuals and former homosexuals. All are welcome. Many never become members but continue to attend week after week. The only caveat is that if they do not turn from their homosexuality, they are not given leadership positions within the church. Same for those who do not turn away from gambling, drunkenness, drug use, etc.
But they are still welcome members of the body.

Your dishonest tactic of trying to paint ALL churches as having the same practices of a small group is completely and intentionally dishonest.

Aspen, you are shoveling with both hands and it is starting to smell.

This verse applies to all my approaches to witnessing - I try to witness with the intention of building up, rather than imparting my 'superior knowledge' in such a manner that causes harm. Using sarcasm and arrogant words to impart knowledge, does nothing for the person being annihilated; all it does is puff us up. It is sacrificing a potential relationship based on love and respect, for being 'RIGHT' in a protective, Pharisee-type manner.

-- By your own admission you do not witness, but rather leave it to the Holy Spirit.
Geez, you can't even keep your stories straight.
You yourself said that you have four gay friends whom you have never told you are Christian and whom - by your own words - you have never witnessed to.
You said one asked if you were a Christian and your entire response was 'yes.' You said he didn't ask more and you didn't volunteer it.

And your tripe about "using sarcasm and arrogant words to impart knowledge." What a load of hooey.
How many times are you going to perpetuate the lie that what may happen in very rare cases by a small number of people is actually the norm and the only process used by Christians who actually share their faith.

PLEASE QUIT BEING SO DISHONEST

The vast, vast, vast.............did I mention vast................majority of Christians witnesses tenderly and in love, seeking guidance and input of the Holy Spirit as they witness. They let the person know that it isn't a specific sin being committed that is seperating them from God, but the fact that ALL MEN have sinned and fall short.
They let them know that they too were sinners and had to turn away from sin and that God welcomed them with open arms, regardless of their former sin.
They let the person being shared with know that God loves them as much as he loves the person witnessing to them and that He died on the cross for their sins, too.
They let the person know that Jesus' love means they can turn from their sin, invite Him into their heart, and they will know love and eternal salvation.
That is not "sarcasm."
Those are not "arrogant words."

Quit painting all Christians with the same narrow paintbrush. You aren't qualified.
Especially if, by your own admission, you don't witness to the lost anyway.

 

[Tkinnie]

Yes we are to LOVE ALL PEOPLE, but if you TRYULY LOVE someone that is homosexual, wouldnt you GUIDE them to the right path??? Thats TRUE love, its not about feeling or emotions, love is about honest truth. If my daughter goes on a killing spree, will I stop loving her, NO. We were Sinners, Killers/Molestors/Rapists/Liars/Cheaters/ and GOD says its all wrong. Did he stop loving us NO. In fact he sent his ONLY BEGOTTEN SON. So if you really LOVE someone, then love them enough to help them get on the path of righteousness, not SIN.

 

[Highlight]

You may argue that we could love someone to death, but God never would. God is perfect love, agape love. Love that never falters, never fails, never gives up.

You could suggest homosexuality is a sin, but then I would argue that why would an ever loving father condemn someone for something that they themselves have no control over? You cannot control your sexuality anymore than you can control your skin colour, eye colour, or shoe size. I don't ever rember "choosing" to be straight at any point, and there's no way I could sit and convince myself to be otherwise, no matter how hard I try. So why should I expect a homosexual to do the same?

Ultimately, I think this argument has far too much weight placed upon it. Because even if it is a sin, it matters not, as all sin is equal, and we are all guilty of sin. Sin that has been relieved.

 

[Duckybill]

You cannot control your sexuality anymore than you can control your skin colour, eye colour, or shoe size.

Do you also think that the sexually immoral, idolators, adulterers, drunkards, liars and all the rest can't control themselves? Whoever is Satan's puppet needs to become a child of God. They are headed for Hell fire.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (ESV)
[sup]9 [/sup]Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [sup]10 [/sup]nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Highlight]

Do you also think that the sexually immoral, idolators, adulterers, drunkards, liars and all the rest can't control themselves? Whoever is Satan's puppet needs to become a child of God.

You're comparing apples with oranges. Adulterers make a conscious choice to sleep outside of wedlock. Drunkards make a conscious choice to pour booze down their necks. Liars make a conscious choice to tell an untruth. You do not make a conscious choice whether you are attracted to men or women.

 

[Duckybill]

You're comparing apples with oranges. Adulterers make a conscious choice to sleep outside of wedlock. Drunkards make a conscious choice to pour booze down their necks. Liars make a conscious choice to tell an untruth. You do not make a conscious choice whether you are attracted to men or women.

That's your opinion. God said they will not inherit His Kingdom, including homosexuals. Guess you missed what God said:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (ESV)
[sup]9 [/sup]Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [sup]10 [/sup]nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.