Homosexuality

[aspen]

So we can live in sin and still be Christians?

It is a terrible myth dreamed up by religious leaders to distinguish between "lifestyle sin" and regular sin. Like Paul, we all do the things we do not want to do and do not do the things we are called to do - it is part of the human condition. Thankfully, Christ has created a good thing out of bad - humility, empathy and forgiveness.

I know, this is off topic, but the thread where it would be on-topic is locked.

and i do not want to create a whole new thread just for one question..


Masturbation between me and my girl, is this a sin as well? We are not married, and not having sex. We decided on this after we met God and we know pre-marital sex is a sin.
Where does it start being a sin? When we experiment foreplay? When I come close to her "V" ? Her breast? Am i allowed to bring her to climax in an orgasm? :mellow: :mellow:

You are having sex with your gf, right now. Are you close to marriage?

 

[th1b.taylor]

God first

thanks [font="tahoma][size="4"]th1b.taylor [/size][/font]

Homosexuality I voted no

not because I think it is right answer

Now do you bring up why? whether its right to be gay I person believe its not for to other people sex habits judge

and I am not a homo

Luke 17:[sup]34 [/sup]I tell you, inthat night there will be two men in one bed:the one will be taken and the other will beleft. [sup]35[/sup]Two women will be grinding together:the one will be taken and the other left. [sup][sup]36 [/sup][/sup]Two men will be in the field: the one will betaken and the other left.” [sup]37 [/sup]And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”


what do think the two were doing in the same bed

Sir,
I read that scripture in several translations and in none did I find a reason to think anything but rest was occurring. A lot of perception is influenced by our evil minds.

 

[belantos]

Regarding "Jacob vs. James".... The KJV and all other versions I know of refer to him as James. Thus, for the sake of clarity, I will call him James. He was pretty straightforward in saying that if you are guilty of one sin you are guilty of the whole law. Both Jesus and Paul made similar comments, with Jesus taking it further and saying if you so much as think of it, you are guilty. In other words, we all transgress the law every day. We are all guilty of transgressing the law whether it be by homosexuality, lusting after a pretty girl or handsome man, or eating shrimp or wearing polyester.



As for Proverbs 24:16.... It is just an image of things to come and shows that sin doesn't bother a righteous man. He rises above it. Note that Jesus increased that number to 77 in Matthew 18:22. Clearly he wasn't saying that on the 78th time you shouldn't forgive a brother. But he was showing that grace would have no bounds.


By the way, as Mr. Rosenburger pointed out, Homosexuality in the OT did result in the death penalty. As did working on the Sabbath day....


I for one do think that following the Old Testiment (or as you like to call it, the Torah) is too hard. None of the fathers could follow it. Not David, not Solomon, not Abraham nor Moses nor Noah. Today, i still believe it is impossible. I don't think even you are keeping all the OT laws nor do I think you repent of every one of them you break unless you blanket them by saying, "Lord I sin daily against your law. Please forgive me!"


That's the only true way you can repent. If you repent from the sins you know you did, you are leaving out all the ones you didn't know you did or couldn't think of at the time. So I disagree with the notion along that lines that any unrepentant sin is not covered by grace. The Bible also supports me when it says so many times that all (a word that is concrete in that it means what it says) sins are forgiven. It doesn't matter if it's homosexuality or eating catfish. It doesn't matter if it's cheating on your wife or in your mind shaming a girl for wearing revealing clothing (which is your sin, not hers). It doesn't matter if it's murder or not having a battlement around your roof. Grace throught faith covers it. Christians are not bound by the Law and the Law no longer reigns over us.

All English bibles translate his name incorrectly, but as far as I know only English bibles. Sure, you can call him James, or even George if you like. But his name is Jacob.



You are missing the point of the Proverbs passage. It is about the righteous person returning to God every time he falls. The Matthew passage is unrelated as it talks about forgiving an offending brother. You forgive only when there is repentance.

Regarding death penalty, can you show me any proof that this was the case. Being "cut off cut off from among their people" means exile, not death penalty. I would also like to see proof that working on the Sabbath brought death penalty.

Oh, sure it is too hard to follow the Torah, which, according to Paul is perfect and good, and by it you know what sin is. It is way too hard not to rape, not to have sex with your mother, sister, not to murder your neighbour, etc. They are all very hard, so better not do them.

You are misunderstanding "grace". God called Gentiles to repentance. They didn't deserve it. This is grace. Anyone who refuses to repent also refused to enter into God's grace, that is, to accept His calling. If you want to continue in sin just throw away your bible and do it. It is utterly wrong to try to make yourself acceptable by forcing your sinful interpretation on the bible. You only deceive yourself, for no matter how you feel, you cannot continue to walk in darkness and still have fellowship with God, not matter how you feel.

Make your choice. Throw away the bible and enjoy your sin. Or repent and walk with God.

Paul is not saying that the Lay lost its jurisdiction. He is simply saying that those believers who walk with God are not under the condemnation of the Torah. The Torah has nothing to say to those who do it out of their heart. Just like the laws against spamming have nothing to do with me, I never spammed anyone even before this law came into existence. The same way, those first century Christians who had the Spirit and walked in it were not under the Torah because the Spirit never moved them contrary to the Torah.

But if you walk in darkness you are kidding yourself. And you know what the bible says about those who call the darkness light...

No. We still have to love the Lord with all our heart, mind and soul and we still have to love the brethren as we love Christ. It also involves at first repenting and then learning of him and then giving your life to him.

As long as you refuse to repent you DO NOT love the LORD you God with all your heart, mind and soul, but you love your sinful ways with all your heart, mind and soul - except that you pretend to love God. That is dishonest.

As long as we are still living in sinful flesh, our outer man is living in sin. Our inward man if it be of Christ, is not.

Romans 6:
[sup]1[/sup] [sup][/sup]What shall we say then? Are we to [sup][/sup]continue in sin so that grace may increase? [sup]2[/sup] [sup][/sup]May it never be! How shall we who [sup][/sup]died to sin still live in it? [sup]3[/sup] Or do you not know that all of us who have been [sup][/sup]baptized into [sup][/sup]Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?


Dying to sin is what repentance means. If you continue in sin you did not repent, that is, you have no ground to claim to have repented and be forgiven.

 

[belantos]

Sir,
I read that scripture in several translations and in none did I find a reason to think anything but rest was occurring. A lot of perception is influenced by our evil minds.

You may need to re-read it. Homosexual act is forbidden.


Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness;
Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

One cannot be "saved" without repentance - dying to his old sinful ways and walking in the newness of life. Since by the Torah is the knowledge of sin, you cannot claim to walk with God and yet continue in sin, breaking the Torah.

Nobody stops you to continue in your sin, but don't call the darkness light, you deceive not only yourself, but others also. Just throw away the bible and go, enjoy your pet sin. No need to reinterpret the bible so that you feel happy. You can adopt New Age and be happy.

Oh, and when you read the bible next time around, don't pick on words, that Paul doesn't talk about a loving-caring homosexual relationship, for Paul is simply applying the Torah to the given situation. The spirit of the Torah (that is, its application to a given situation) condemns homosexual acts. Don't try to change the Torah of God!

 

[Rach1370]

Seriously guys, this argument, based on that verse (Luke 17:34) is moot. The text does not state that two men were in bed together. I know many of the translations do, but check it out for yourselves. Grab a copy of Strongs and have a look. The Greek does not specify that it was two men....all it says is that two will be in a bed. Given that elsewhere the Bible is very clear that homosexuality is a sin, I don't know why people leap to conclude that this verse is somehow condoning it.

 

[aspen]

Seriously guys, this argument, based on that verse (Luke 17:34) is moot. The text does not state that two men were in bed together. I know many of the translations do, but check it out for yourselves. Grab a copy of Strongs and have a look. The Greek does not specify that it was two men....all it says is that two will be in a bed. Given that elsewhere the Bible is very clear that homosexuality is a sin, I don't know why people leap to conclude that this verse is somehow condoning it.

I wish it were mute :)

 

[Etienne]

It is a terrible myth dreamed up by religious leaders to distinguish between "lifestyle sin" and regular sin. Like Paul, we all do the things we do not want to do and do not do the things we are called to do - it is part of the human condition. Thankfully, Christ has created a good thing out of bad - humility, empathy and forgiveness.



You are having sex with your gf, right now. Are you close to marriage?

So caressing her breasts falls under lustful sin?

Well, we live in South Africa, and to get married on our age is not a wise decision. We will not be able to afford a home yet as she is still a student, but Yes Aspen, we are to be married soon enough. I told her, and she told me that we want each other as life partners and want to get married.. but am poor, and financially we will not be stable to maintain a home just yet..

 

[aspen]

So caressing her breasts falls under lustful sin?

Well, we live in South Africa, and to get married on our age is not a wise decision. We will not be able to afford a home yet as she is still a student, but Yes Aspen, we are to be married soon enough. I told her, and she told me that we want each other as life partners and want to get married.. but am poor, and financially we will not be stable to maintain a home just yet..

I understand - I was in the same sort of situation when I met my wife. We waited 3 1/2 years to get married - long time to wait. I am not being judgment towards you - all I am saying is that you shouldn't fool yourselves - sex is sex. It is up to you both to make a decision you can live with - don't be surprised if you do not get a satisfying answer here. The fact is, this sort of situation is as personal as it gets - it can only be decided by you and your gf.

blessings

 

[Rach1370]

I wish it were mute :)

:lol:

 

[Duckybill]

It is a terrible myth dreamed up by religious leaders to distinguish between "lifestyle sin" and regular sin.

You don't see the difference between 'living in sin' and committing a sin??? HUGE difference.

1 John 3:8 (ESV)
[sup]8 [/sup]Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning.

I would also like to see proof that working on the Sabbath brought death penalty.

Exodus 31:15 (ESV)
[sup]15 [/sup]Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death.

Numbers 15:32-36 (ESV)
[sup]32 [/sup]While the people of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. [sup]33 [/sup]And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation. [sup]34 [/sup]They put him in custody, because it had not been made clear what should be done to him. [sup]35 [/sup]And the Lord said to Moses, “The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” [sup]36 [/sup]And all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death with stones, as the Lord commanded Moses.

 

[belantos]

Seriously guys, this argument, based on that verse (Luke 17:34) is moot. The text does not state that two men were in bed together. I know many of the translations do, but check it out for yourselves. Grab a copy of Strongs and have a look. The Greek does not specify that it was two men....all it says is that two will be in a bed. Given that elsewhere the Bible is very clear that homosexuality is a sin, I don't know why people leap to conclude that this verse is somehow condoning it.

That passage talks about everyday life. No sin is implied, so the two in bed are certainly NOT two homosexuals.

 

[belantos]

Exodus 31:15 (ESV)
[sup]15 [/sup]Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death.

Numbers 15:32-36 (ESV)
[sup]32 [/sup]While the people of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. [sup]33 [/sup]And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation. [sup]34 [/sup]They put him in custody, because it had not been made clear what should be done to him. [sup]35 [/sup]And the Lord said to Moses, “The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” [sup]36 [/sup]And all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death with stones, as the Lord commanded Moses.

Sure, you are right. I forgot about these verses. But how does this change anything? Breaking the Sabbath is sin and so as committing homosexual act. You cannot call either of them righteousness.

 

[Duckybill]

Sure, you are right. I forgot about these verses. But how does this change anything? Breaking the Sabbath is sin and so as committing homosexual act. You cannot call either of them righteousness.

I was just showing how little you really know about the Scriptures. Anyone who's been a Christian for a few years should have known that. Especially YOU who are trying to re-write our Bibles.

 

[Etienne]

Yea, i voted Yes.

IIRC, certain sins are unforgivable. like being blasphemes against the Holy Ghost.

Luke 12: 10 [sup]"10[/sup]And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven." KJV

Or am i understanding it wrongly? So there might be unforgivable sins... What are they? List?

 

[belantos]

I was just showing how little you really know about the Scriptures. Anyone who's been a Christian for a few years should have known that. Especially YOU who are trying to re-write our Bibles.

How does that prove that I don't understand the biblical concepts? there is no need to rewrite the bible. Death sentences were hardly ever carried out in ancient times, and it cannot be done in the absence of the Sanhedrin.

 

[FHII]

I don't see it that way. Neither did Paul.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (ESV)
[sup]9 [/sup]Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [sup]10 [/sup]nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Duckybill,



When lookingat the book of 1 Corinthians, it is helpful to know what problem Paul wasaddressing, as well as the parties involved. The primary problem was not that the Christians at Corinth were engagingin sinful acts (they were, and Paul was concerned, but that was not the biggestproblem he had with them).



The rebukePaul was giving was about the saints taking other saints to a court ofunbelievers. He notes that the thesaints would judge the world as well as angels. That noted, it was a terrible misgiving that they couldn’t resolve theirproblems within the confines of their own community (the believers). Paul was not only mad that they were going tocourt in front of unbelievers, but that they were arguing in the firstplace. This is all found in 1Corinthians 6:1-8.



Here areverses 9-10, as you noted (I quote from the KJV):



1 Cor6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit thekingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, noradulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, norrevilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.



There aretwo parties here: the unrighteous(unbelievers) and the righteous (the saints). It is pointed out what the unrighteous do. Paul is against those things, and later weshall see that he says the saints shouldn’t do those things. However, the main point is not on the thingsthat the unrighteous do, but the act of going to court in front of those who were unrighteous.



In verse 11Paul notes:



“And suchwere some of you: but ye are washed, butye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and bythe Spirit of our God.”



This versedoesn’t say that the saints of Corinth quit sinning. Obviously they didn’t, but through it allthey were still saints. They didn’t fallfrom grace because what they did because their salvation was settled! Doing these things in the flesh was not goingto take that away, but going to law before unbelievers and the defrauding oneanother was going to without correction.



The nextverse shows that the problem must not have been that they were fornicators,idolators, etc. in the flesh. Again, theproblem is fellowship with unbelievers and not being able to resolve and/or forgiveconflicts within the Christian community. Here’s verse 12:



“All thingsare lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful forme, but I will not be brought under the power of any.”



This ispretty clear in context to verses 9 and 10. All those things listed when noted as fleshly sins are lawful to thesaints. Paul is noting that yes they arecovered by grace through faith. It isnot an excuse to do them, but it is a rebuke in that Paul also says they aren’texpedient and they should not be brought under their power (or under theircontrol – he wouldn’t become addicted to them or let them control his life).



In verse 12he says, “meets for the belly and the belly for meats: but God shall destroyboth it and them.” In other words, sinand the flesh God is going to destroy. Neither of them shall inherit the Kingdom of God. The second part of this verse he refers tofornication and “the body”. We candiscuss it more if you like, but he is not talking about sexual fornication,but rather false fellowship that the Body of Christ (the Christian community asa whole) with unbelievers.



I am not saying the sins listed in verse 9 and10 went unrebuked by Paul. They were,but again it was not the main point. However, even though Paul says they weren’t expedient and Christiansshouldn’t be under their control, it still remains that all things werelawful.



One finalstatement on this topic: Yes I dobelieve that grace through faith is that strong! There is a process to getting faith, and yesit does include repentance. But evenwith faith and grace you are still living in the flesh and you are still asinner. However, grace covers ALL sinast, present and future; intentional and unintentional, the sins you repentdaily from and (if you repented correctly) even the ones you didn’t repentdaily from. I will talk more about thatin another post.

 

[Duckybill]

there is no need to rewrite the bible.

So why are you doing it??? You can't understand simple English and you're trying to teach us Hebrew and Greek?
Try this one:

John 1 The Word was God. The Word became flesh ...

 

[FHII]

Belantos wrote:



“You are missing the point of the Proverbs passage. It is about therighteous person returning to God everytime he falls. The Matthew passage is unrelated as it talksabout forgiving an offending brother. You forgive only when there is repentance.”



First off, under grace through faith the righteous don’tfall from grace. The blood of Christdoesn’t cover sins, then uncover them when you do them until you repent. All sins are covered by the blood of JesusChrist. Hebrews 10:10, 12 and 14 arewitness to that. Second, if you believethat when Peter asked about forgiveness seven times, he didn’t have Proverbs 23in mind, ok. It seems like an unlikelycoincidence that he just happened to pick that number.



Belantos wrote:



“Regarding death penalty, can you show me any proof that this was the case.Being "cut off cut off from among their people" means exile, notdeath penalty. I would also like to see proof that working on the Sabbathbrought death penalty.”



Duckybill already addressed this, so I take it you areconvinced? If not, you can also see itin Lev 20:13.



Belantos wrote:



“Oh, sure it is too hardto follow the Torah, which, according to Paul is perfect and good, and by ityou know what sin is. It is way too hard not to rape, not to have sex with yourmother, sister, not to murder your neighbour, etc. They are all very hard, sobetter not do them.”



I for one do not feel it is too hard not to rape, nor havesex with your family members, nor murder my neighbor. So I don’t even know why it would be in yourheart to bring them up. Frankly, I findthese the easiest parts of the law to keep. These aren’t the problem for most people. If you are having a problem with them, thenyou better hope that grace covers them.



As I pointed our, both James and Paul noted if you keep onepoint of the Law, you must keep the whole Law. I’m not going to list the whole Law, but let’s look at some things theLaw says:

• You can’t eat a chicken if she has chicks (Deu 22:67). If someone else takes it and you eat it, you were a part of that sin.
• If you build a house, it must have a battlement (Deu 22:8). If someone else built it and you live in it, you are living in a house that was built against the Law.
• You can’t plant one type of crop next to another (Deu 22:9). In other words, if you have a garden, it must be all of one type of produce.
• You can’t wear polyester or any other piece of clothing that is made with more than one type of fiber. Furthermore, you can’t wear one piece of clothing made of cotton (for example) and another made of wool or silk. (Deu 22:11).
• You can’t work on Saturday (Exo 31:15).
• You cannot eat rabbit, any type of meat from a pig (Lev 11:5-9), you can’t even touch a pig (or a football because it is made from a pig’s hide).
• You cannot eat catfish, shrimp, crabs, lobster mussels, clams, shark (Lev 11:9-12).
• If you are a woman and its that time of the month, you can’t go to Church. No one can touch you nor touch anything you touch. (Lev 15).
• If you are blind, lame, have a flat nose, a broken foot or hand, a crooked back, a black eye, have an open wound or are impotent, you can’t a priest, nor can you give an offering yourself. If you are a dwarf, you couldn’t either (Lev 21:17). Today, that would also mean be any part of the ministry.
• You can’t lie (Pro 6:17). (Have you ever said, “I don’t have a thing to wear”, “I’ve got a million things to do today” or “There’s nothing to eat”? Unless your closets and drawers are empty, you really have 1,000,000 chores and your fridge and pantry has nothing – not even half a bottle of ketchup, you lied.)
• If you think having sex in any way shape of form with a woman other than your wife. (Mat 5:28) If you look at a woman and simply admire her beauty, you have lusted to a degree. If you dream about having sex with another woman while you are sleeping, you lusted. Just because it was unintentional doesn’t mean you didn’t have those thoughts.

I fully understand what may be attempted next. Someone willstart picking apart this list and claim that they don’t apply today (and undergrace, I agree), how I took it out of context or claim that I take things toofar. You might be able to say that someof these things aren’t sins or aren’t big sins. Please don’t waste your time. Youmay be able to find fault with some things in this list. You also may be able to say, “I’m not guiltyof that point”. But that’s not thepoint. My point is simple. Can you do all these things? DO you follow all these laws? If not, you are guilty of the whole law. That includes these points and every otherpoint I didn’t list.



So now let’s talk about repenting from sins. If you believe that repenting means that eachand every time you sin, you must repent from that particular sin. If you believe that repentance means that youmust never do that sin again, then so be it. You can’t ever do any of these things again.



Now, this thread is dealing with homosexuality. If you are a homosexual and you must give upthat sin, then if the Bible is right, you must also never tell another lieagain OR eat a ham sandwich. That is,unless grace really does cover ALL sins whether you do them or not and whetheryou do them intentionally or unintentionally. Again, I have said before, I amnot defending any sin. I am defendinggrace. I am also not saying you don’thave to repent from being a sinner. I amsaying that everyone sins even after repentance from being a sinner.



There are some other things I didn’t cover. I was told I didn’t understand grace and itwas implied or said that I am wrong or have wrongly considered Romans 6. I’m going to leave those alone for now. I believe what I wrote is enough for the timebeing.

 

[Duckybill]

Duckybill,



When lookingat the book of 1 Corinthians, it is helpful to know what problem Paul wasaddressing, as well as the parties involved. The primary problem was not that the Christians at Corinth were engagingin sinful acts (they were, and Paul was concerned, but that was not the biggestproblem he had with them).



The rebukePaul was giving was about the saints taking other saints to a court ofunbelievers. He notes that the thesaints would judge the world as well as angels. That noted, it was a terrible misgiving that they couldn’t resolve theirproblems within the confines of their own community (the believers). Paul was not only mad that they were going tocourt in front of unbelievers, but that they were arguing in the firstplace. This is all found in 1Corinthians 6:1-8.



Here areverses 9-10, as you noted (I quote from the KJV):



1 Cor6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit thekingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, noradulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, norrevilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.



There aretwo parties here: the unrighteous(unbelievers) and the righteous (the saints). It is pointed out what the unrighteous do. Paul is against those things, and later weshall see that he says the saints shouldn’t do those things. However, the main point is not on the thingsthat the unrighteous do, but the act of going to court in front of those who were unrighteous.



In verse 11Paul notes:



“And suchwere some of you: but ye are washed, butye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and bythe Spirit of our God.”



This versedoesn’t say that the saints of Corinth quit sinning. Obviously they didn’t, but through it allthey were still saints. They didn’t fallfrom grace because what they did because their salvation was settled! Doing these things in the flesh was not goingto take that away, but going to law before unbelievers and the defrauding oneanother was going to without correction.



The nextverse shows that the problem must not have been that they were fornicators,idolators, etc. in the flesh. Again, theproblem is fellowship with unbelievers and not being able to resolve and/or forgiveconflicts within the Christian community. Here’s verse 12:



“All thingsare lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful forme, but I will not be brought under the power of any.”



This ispretty clear in context to verses 9 and 10. All those things listed when noted as fleshly sins are lawful to thesaints. Paul is noting that yes they arecovered by grace through faith. It isnot an excuse to do them, but it is a rebuke in that Paul also says they aren’texpedient and they should not be brought under their power (or under theircontrol – he wouldn’t become addicted to them or let them control his life).



In verse 12he says, “meets for the belly and the belly for meats: but God shall destroyboth it and them.” In other words, sinand the flesh God is going to destroy. Neither of them shall inherit the Kingdom of God. The second part of this verse he refers tofornication and “the body”. We candiscuss it more if you like, but he is not talking about sexual fornication,but rather false fellowship that the Body of Christ (the Christian community asa whole) with unbelievers.



I am not saying the sins listed in verse 9 and10 went unrebuked by Paul. They were,but again it was not the main point. However, even though Paul says they weren’t expedient and Christiansshouldn’t be under their control, it still remains that all things werelawful.



One finalstatement on this topic: Yes I dobelieve that grace through faith is that strong! There is a process to getting faith, and yesit does include repentance. But evenwith faith and grace you are still living in the flesh and you are still asinner. However, grace covers ALL sinast, present and future; intentional and unintentional, the sins you repentdaily from and (if you repented correctly) even the ones you didn’t repentdaily from. I will talk more about thatin another post.

It is truly sad to see someone defending living in sin and professing to be Christian. The Truth is:

1 John 3:8 (ESV)
[sup]8 [/sup]Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning.

 

[FHII]

It is truly sad to see someone defending living in sin and professing to be Christian. The Truth is:

1 John 3:8 (ESV)
[sup]8 [/sup]Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning.

I am not defending sin, I am defending grace. I have noted that two other times before. I would be more than happy to discuss John's 1st letter if you like. For now, you may be interested to read my response posted right above this one.