Homosexuality: Wrong or Right?

[BarneyFife]

St. SteVen said:
This issue is not going away anytime soon.

Your response.


St. SteVen said:
If LGBT is a passing fad then the church need not worry about it, right?

I do think the church should be taking it more seriously.
Your response is above. "I guarantee it'll be over before you know it." - BarneyFife
Perhaps I misunderstood you?

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I guess so. But I suppose I was kinda cryptic. Sorry.
Either the church will turn on them or the Second Coming will put an end to it.
It's going to get really bad before it gets better.
All you have to do is look at the social backlash against third-wave feminism.
Women have not benefited from it. Men have just found new ways to abuse and exploit them.
If you want to see what's being done in my theological neck of the woods, this is probably a pretty good representation:

Playlist - Jesus And Wholistic Sexuality - Village SDA Church - YouTube


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[BarneyFife]

Sorry. Duly noted.
I think it makes a good "apples to apples" comparison.
But, it can be seen as a bit sarcastic, to be fair. - LOL

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No worries. I'm not offended or anything. I just see that a lot with adversarial discussion and I was hoping we could avoid that road.


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[St. SteVen]

Is the Church supposed to, as Jesus did, reach out to all sorts of penitent sinners?

Mark 2:17 NIV
On hearing this, Jesus said to them,
“It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.
I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

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[BarneyFife]

Is that a good enough reason for the church to shun them?

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Not if I wouldn't shun murderers, adulterers, and people who dishonor their parents—which I don't.
You don't make any distinction between opposing the philosophical ideology and shunning those who are mired in the nonsense?
I kinda thought you did.
How would you feel about a philosophy that legitimized murder, adultery, or systematic parental dishonor?
Me, too
What the church is going to have to and will do before Jesus comes back is to learn how to walk and chew gum at the same time, theologically.


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[St. SteVen]

All are welcome, but not if they want us to conform to their sins.

I'm not suggesting that we should "conform to their sins."
But they certainly are NOT welcome.

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[BarneyFife]

Is the Church supposed to, as Jesus did, reach out to all sorts of penitent sinners?

Yes.

Is the Church instructed to "purge the evil man from among you"--if someone says he is a brother, but lives in sin, to have nothing to do with him, not even eat?

Yes.

Both are true.

Ah, the paradox.


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[Jericho]

I'm not suggesting that we should "conform to their sins."
But they certainly are NOT welcome.

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There was a "trans" person that came to my church for a time. No one treated him differently or said he wasn't welcomed. I have no problem with someone who comes to church with the right intentions.

 

[St. SteVen]

There was a "trans" person that came to my church for a time. No one treated him differently or said he wasn't welcomed. I have no problem with someone who comes to church with the right intentions.

Thanks.
We need MORE to behave that way.
But what do we see instead? (picketing the PRIDE events)



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[GracePeace]

Ah, the paradox.


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In Lk 15, Jesus justifies partying with those labeled "sinners" by the Pharisees by explaining they had realized their errors, and returned home (they had repented), and He wasn't justifying their sin, but celebrating their repentance, whereas the SAME Jesus rules that the one who says he is a brother, but is impenitently sinning, must be throw out of the church (Mt 18).

There is no "paradox" here, though, as in the previous case, you're insisting on seeing one.

These are two completely different cases.

 

[GracePeace]

Mark 2:17 NIV
On hearing this, Jesus said to them,
“It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.
I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

'

You're arguing that Sodomites are not "sick" at all, aren't you!?

Do you not see the difference?

Christ said they were in need of repentance, they were "sick", and the "sinners" He ate with had already recognized their "sickness", and were returning home to God, according to the parable of Prodigal Son passage (Lk 15), but you say there's nothing for a Sodomite to repent of in the first place!

 

[BarneyFife]

In Lk 15, Jesus justifies partying with those labeled "sinners" by the Pharisees by explaining they had realized their errors, and returned home (they had repented), and He wasn't justifying their sin, but celebrating their repentance, whereas the SAME Jesus rules that the one who says he is a brother, but is impenitently sinning, must be throw out of the church (Mt 18).

There is no "paradox" here, though, as in the previous case, you're insisting on seeing one.

These are two completely different cases.

My mistake

 

[GracePeace]

My mistake

Yeah, but I'm arguing it was also a "mistake" in the previous case!

 

[St. SteVen]

... the "sinners" He ate with had already recognized their "sickness", and were returning home to God, ...

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Some context might help.

Mark 2:15-17 NIV
While Jesus was having dinner at Levi’s house,
many tax collectors and sinners were eating with him
and his disciples, for there were many who followed him.
16 When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him
eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they asked his disciples:
“Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?”
17 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor,
but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

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[GracePeace]

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Some context might help.

Mark 2:15-17 NIV
While Jesus was having dinner at Levi’s house,
many tax collectors and sinners were eating with him
and his disciples, for there were many who followed him.
16 When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him
eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they asked his disciples:
“Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?”
17 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor,
but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

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1. Again, He called them "sick"--in our case, you'd be calling Jesus "sick" for recognizing sodomy as a "sickness".

2. I already explained why: Lk 15 shows His practice is to call sinners to repentance, and, after they recognize their moral errors, and return home to God, Christ rejoices over their recovery (because they were "dead" and "lost" in their sin, now, after repenting and returning, they're "alive" and "found") to God.

None of this is difficult to understand, you're pretending you can't because you want to find a way to introduce sin to Christianity. It's not going to work.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I do think the church should be taking it more seriously.

The Church actually does take homosexuality seriously. You, or the pro-homosexual behavior crowd, just doesn't appreciate the Churches stance.

Here's my thing, on a personal level I really don't care if Joe blow wants to have sex with John Doe.I do think if that's what they want then that is their personal business (until they make it mine, at any rate)...

But that doesn't mean the Bible doesn't teach that it's a sin, because it does.

And it doesn't change the fact that a practicing homosexual has never known God. They might think they have, but living a practicing homosexual lifestyle proves it a lie, in and of itself.

A person might struggle with unwanted feelings and still be Christian, that is a struggle all Christians have in one form or another - but a Christian doesn't sin endlessly and then try to to force other Christians to pretend it's not a sin.

Christians are required to protect the integrity of what is being taught in our churches, that what is doctrinally correct is what we are teaching.

And homosexuality, practicing homosexuality, is a sin before God.

If I was a habitual liar would you not call me out on it? Or would you be trying to convince the Church that it's perfectly fine to lie?

Sin is sin, and the Church has a duty to call it as such. If we didn't, we would not be following the Truth.

 

[St. SteVen]

None of this is difficult to understand, you're pretending you can't because you want to find a way to introduce sin to Christianity. It's not going to work.

The lack of understanding is on your end. I'm NOT trying "to introduce sin to Christianity."
I'm trying to get the church to be as inviting toward "the sick" as Jesus was.

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[Hazelelponi]

The lack of understanding is your end. I'm NOT trying "to introduce sin to Christianity."
I'm trying to get the church to be as invited toward "the sick" as Jesus was.

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I've never heard of a church who has denied a homosexual a seat in their church to hear the Gospel.

Homosexuals, like any other sinner are free to sit in any pew in America and hear the Word of God preached.

All churches are very welcoming of sinners, sharing the Gospel is our mission on earth.

However, it doesn't extend to marrying homosexuals together, to excusing sin, to teaching it's okay to sin, and someone in open sin cannot join the Church as a member and you can't walk into a church and teach against their doctrine.

But every church wants to reach the lost for Christ. It's just that lying to people about sin simply isn't the way God wants us to do it.

 

[GracePeace]

I've never heard of a church who has denied a homosexual a seat in their church to hear the Gospel.

Homosexuals, like any other sinner are free to sit in any pew in America and hear the Word of God preached.

All churches are very welcoming of sinners, sharing the Gospel is our mission on earth.

However, it doesn't extend to marrying homosexuals together, to excusing sin, to teaching it's okay to sin, and someone in open sin cannot join the Church as a member.

But every church wants to reach the lost for Christ. It's just that lying to people about sin simply isn't the way God wants us to do it.

This issue is exceedingly simple to understand--these people pretending not to understand want to give the impression there is obscurity as a front to smuggle sodomy into Christianity.

Nope, not happening!

 

[St. SteVen]

The Church actually does take homosexuality seriously. You, or the pro-homosexual behavior crowd, just doesn't appreciate the Churches stance.

Here's my thing, on a personal level I really don't care if Joe blow wants to have sex with John Doe.I do think if that's what they want then that is their personal business (until they make it mine, at any rate)...

But that doesn't mean the Bible doesn't teach that it's a sin, because it does.

From my perspective, the church takes a militant view.
We even picket PRIDE parades. And if a gay person wants some help from the church...
Folks like you are there to slap them silly. (not what they need)

And it doesn't change the fact that a practicing homosexual has never known God. They might think they have, but living a practicing homosexual lifestyle proves it a lie, in and of itself.

A person might struggle with unwanted feelings and still be Christian, that is a struggle all Christians have in one form or another - but a Christian doesn't sin endlessly and then try to to force other Christians to pretend it's not a sin.

This shows me that you have little to no understanding of the subject.
A "real" Christian can have struggles with any sin available.
Would you claim that a Christian that struggled with alcohol was never "really" a Christian if they returned to alcohol?
I hope not.

I know that REAL Christians can struggle with same-sex attraction all their lives even after decades away from their old lifestyle.
This was a revelation to me. I had no idea this was happening until a man confided the fact in a group setting.
And YES, people are born with a same-sex attraction. Usually discovered when they enter puberty.
And if that teen grew up in church, they know the church will be zero help.

My story is in the OP of this topic. If you want to know how I arrived at my views.

WWJD with LGBTQ?

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[St. SteVen]

I've never heard of a church who has denied a homosexual a seat in their church to hear the Gospel.

Tell that to a homosexual if you want them to laugh in your face.
They know you hate them. Too late to claim otherwise.

--- PARODY ---

Church Greeter: Welcome to church!
Church Visitor: Thanks, my first time here.
Church Greeter: Great, we are glad you are here. One question...
Church Visitor: Uh, okay. What is it?
Church Greeter: Are you LGBTQIA+ ?
Church Visitor: Um... that's not one thing, that's at least seven things. ???
Church Greeter: We just ask that you leave that at the door when you enter this holy place.
Church Visitor: Seriously?
Church Greeter: Yes, the Bible tells us that those things are evil, we want no evil here.
Church Visitor: You do know that there is a HUGE difference between LGBQ and TIA, right?
Church Greeter: Nope, all one thing to us. Sinful, very sinful.
Church Visitor: You can argue that LGBQ is not genetic, but clearly TIA are genetic.
Church Greeter: Sorry, I'm not studied in these things.
Church Visitor: Obviously.
Church Greeter: Are you LGBTQIA+, or not?
Church Visitor: I'm pretty sure this isn't going to work. Goodbye.

Indeed. What's wrong with this picture?

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