Hellfire and brimstone has given way to eternal separation from God. - Why?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Lizbeth

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2022
4,388
5,837
113
67
Ontario, Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Where is the danger if they are merely allegorical? I thought you took them literally. ???
Do you think there will be combustion taking place and literal worms eating the soul? They are expressing a "death" taking place on another level.

You seem to think that God operates under a LOWER set of morals and ethics than he holds us to. ???
Man is not qualified to judge his fellows, but God is and does!

Did God create you for noble purposes, or for base purposes?
I do not even judge myself on that level....you would have to ask He who is my judge!
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
13,960
5,701
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Do you think there will be combustion taking place and literal worms eating the soul? They are expressing a "death" taking place on another level.
No, not eating the soul.

2 Peter 3:10 NRSVue
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise,
and the elements will be destroyed with fire, and the earth and everything that is done on it will be disclosed.[a]

Man is not qualified to judge his fellows, but God is and does!
Take it up with a judge.

I do not even judge myself on that level....you would have to ask He who is my judge!
Shall I report on what he says?

/
 

Lizbeth

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2022
4,388
5,837
113
67
Ontario, Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
No, not eating the soul.
Do you think it is talking about physical death and decay.....I dont' think so, because it says it's better to enter heaven maimed than that thy whole body be cast into hell. "Hell" or hades in this instance is not talking about a physical grave where only the body is destroyed....since everyone is going to undergo physical death, including those who enter heaven...not just sinners. Second death occurs after being 'resurrected' long enough to face God's judgment.

Zep 2:1-3

Gather together, gather yourselves together, you shameful nation,

before the decree takes effect and that day passes like windblown chaff, before the LORD’s fierce anger comes upon you, before the day of the LORD’s wrath comes upon you.

Seek the LORD, all you humble of the land, you who do what he commands. Seek righteousness, seek humility; perhaps you will be sheltered on the day of the LORD’s anger.

Read Zep 1 to see what decree is being referred to (2 Peter 3 reflects Zep 1). I think the idea being conveyed in 2 Peter 3 is that nothing but nothing will survive the wrath of God except what is sheltered/hid in the cleft of the Rock.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: amigo de christo

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
13,960
5,701
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Do you think it is talking about physical death and decay......it isn't, because it says it's better to enter heaven maimed than that thy whole body be cast into hell. "Hell" or hades in this instance is not talking about a physical grave where only the body is destroyed....since everyone is going to undergo physical death, including those who enter heaven...not just sinners.
Can you clarify what is literal to you, and what is allegorical?
I can no longer follow what you are saying. Thanks.

I understand the cutting off of hands and plucking out of eyes (to prevent sin) as being allegorical.
Jesus was not asking us to do that literally. Right? It was a warning about the coming judgment.

Would you agree that there is both physical life and death and spiritual life and death?
Which kind(s) of death came with the Fall of humankind? (Gen. 3)

One of the reasons for an Age of Restoration is because of all the public judgment to take place.
- Nations
- Leaders (government and religious)
- Individuals (every idle word and secret deed)

/
 

Lizbeth

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2022
4,388
5,837
113
67
Ontario, Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Can you clarify what is literal to you, and what is allegorical?
I can no longer follow what you are saying. Thanks.

I understand the cutting off of hands and plucking out of eyes (to prevent sin) as being allegorical.
Jesus was not asking us to do that literally. Right? It was a warning about the coming judgment.

Would you agree that there is both physical life and death and spiritual life and death?
Which kind(s) of death came with the Fall of humankind? (Gen. 3)

One of the reasons for an Age of Restoration is because of all the public judgment to take place.
- Nations
- Leaders (government and religious)
- Individuals (every idle word and secret deed)

/
Don't know if I'm up to explaining it more than I have tried to do...not young any more and my brain isn't aging well at all, I'm sorry. But if I have been understanding you, you are making a case that "hell"/hades in scripture is only referring to physical death. Whereas I'm making the case that "hell"/hades is sometimes allegorical in scripture for something beyond the grave......the destruction of the soul after judgment takes place - as in the instance of those verses about entering heaven maimed rather than be cast into "hell". And judgment takes place after physical death....where one is "resurrected" to face the judgment and be cast into the lake of fire (hell/hades being an allegory for the lake of fire) if not found in the book of Life. Hope that helps, think it's the best I can do from my end.

(For those who are being saved, their soul is not left or cast into hell/hades to be punished and destroyed. "Thou wilt not leave my soul in sheol." Even though all our physical bodies are consumed/destroyed there. We are talking about either salvation of the soul or the "destruction" of it in hell - second death. It's a matter of either receiving/inheriting eternal life and immortality or not receiving immortality.)

The reason I brought those scriptures in the first place was to counter the argument that the lake of fire (hell) is not permanent, that it's only a kind of purgatory. Whereas "their worm doesn't die and the fire is not quenched" indicates permanence.
 
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
13,960
5,701
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
(For those who are being saved, their soul is not left or cast into hell/hades to be punished and destroyed. "Thou wilt not leave my soul in sheol." Even though all our physical bodies are consumed/destroyed there. We are talking about either salvation of the soul or the "destruction" of it in hell - second death. It's a matter of either receiving/inheriting eternal life and immortality or not receiving immortality.)
Scripture makes an allowance for those who have never heard. How does that work in your view?

Romans 2:14-16 NET
For whenever the Gentiles,[a] who do not have the law, do by nature[b] the things required by the law,[c]
these who do not have the law are a law to themselves.
15 They[d] show that the work of the law is written[e] in their hearts,
as their conscience bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or else defend[f] them,[g]
16 on the day when God will judge[h] the secrets of human hearts,[i]
according to my gospel[j] through Christ Jesus.

/
 

Lizbeth

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2022
4,388
5,837
113
67
Ontario, Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Scripture makes an allowance for those who have never heard. How does that work in your view?

Romans 2:14-16 NET
For whenever the Gentiles,[a] who do not have the law, do by nature[b] the things required by the law,[c]
these who do not have the law are a law to themselves.
15 They[d] show that the work of the law is written[e] in their hearts,
as their conscience bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or else defend[f] them,[g]
16 on the day when God will judge[h] the secrets of human hearts,[i]
according to my gospel[j] through Christ Jesus.

/
You still haven't answered my question about how you interpret the scriptures that I brought.

However.....if the work of the Law is written their hearts doesn't that make them partakers of the new covenant in Christ.........according to Paul's gospel.
 

amigo de christo

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2020
29,915
50,685
113
53
San angelo
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Don't know if I'm up to explaining it more than I have tried to do...not young any more and my brain isn't aging well at all, I'm sorry. But if I have been understanding you, you are making a case that "hell"/hades in scripture is only referring to physical death. Whereas I'm making the case that "hell"/hades is sometimes allegorical in scripture for something beyond the grave......the destruction of the soul after judgment takes place - as in the instance of those verses about entering heaven maimed rather than be cast into "hell". And judgment takes place after physical death....where one is "resurrected" to face the judgment and be cast into the lake of fire (hell/hades being an allegory for the lake of fire) if not found in the book of Life. Hope that helps, think it's the best I can do from my end.

(For those who are being saved, their soul is not left or cast into hell/hades to be punished and destroyed. "Thou wilt not leave my soul in sheol." Even though all our physical bodies are consumed/destroyed there. We are talking about either salvation of the soul or the "destruction" of it in hell - second death. It's a matter of either receiving/inheriting eternal life and immortality or not receiving immortality.)

The reason I brought those scriptures in the first place was to counter the argument that the lake of fire (hell) is not permanent, that it's only a kind of purgatory. Whereas "their worm doesn't die and the fire is not quenched" indicates permanence.
Sister you dont have dementia . march on in the LORD . folks like to play on words my dear sister in order
to believe in another inclusive gospel . i have seen this far too many times sister .
they try and word play as they overlook what is really getting said , THE MEANING BEHIND IT . watch out
for there are many who do this sister .
Thus the reminder remains the same . IF any cometh and tries to teach another gospel
another love , another anything that contradicts GOD , HIS CHRIST , the plain truth , IT will not be accepted by a lamb .
AND JESUS made sure to say what would occur to any and to all who BELIEVED NOT
as well as the eternal life unto those WHO DO BELIEVE . and as you well know
another jesus is NOT JESUS either . so the other reminder i give often and daily ALSO gets said again
ITS TIME folks just got in their bibles again for themselves and let GOD teach . cause many now teach
another salvation , another gospel , another means , another jesus and none of it will save one soul .
 

Lizbeth

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2022
4,388
5,837
113
67
Ontario, Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Sister you dont have dementia . march on in the LORD . folks like to play on words my dear sister in order
to believe in another inclusive gospel . i have seen this far too many times sister .
they try and word play as they overlook what is really getting said , THE MEANING BEHIND IT . watch out
for there are many who do this sister .
Thus the reminder remains the same . IF any cometh and tries to teach another gospel
another love , another anything that contradicts GOD , HIS CHRIST , the plain truth , IT will not be accepted by a lamb .
AND JESUS made sure to say what would occur to any and to all who BELIEVED NOT
as well as the eternal life unto those WHO DO BELIEVE . and as you well know
another jesus is NOT JESUS either . so the other reminder i give often and daily ALSO gets said again
ITS TIME folks just got in their bibles again for themselves and let GOD teach . cause many now teach
another salvation , another gospel , another means , another jesus and none of it will save one soul .
Sometimes I sure wish this noggin of mine came with a crank because it doesn't always want to turn over these days, oh my goodness! Bless you brother, hope you're right about dementia, and would rather this doesn't keep getting worse.

I might not have been clear about what I was trying to say, so I dont' mind trying to clear up any confusion...if I'm able to. But also, it is sometimes a matter of needing ears to hear. And we can't really have ears to hear unless we're willing to be impartial so that the Lord can speak to us.
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
13,960
5,701
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You still haven't answered my question about how you interpret the scriptures that I brought.
All three views of the final judgment have biblical support.
Not sure what scriptures you brought that haven't been addressed.
You seem to have dismissed the scriptures that support eternal conscious torment. Right?

However.....if the work of the Law is written their hearts doesn't that make them partakers of the new covenant in Christ.........according to Paul's gospel.
Not sure if I would go so far as to say, "partakers of the new covenant in Christ".
But they obviously have some standing with God.

In Matthew 25 those who met needs of the hungry, naked, stranger, thirsty,
sick, and in prison inherited the kingdom.

Matthew 25:31-36 NET
“When[a] the Son of Man comes in his glory
and all the angels with him,
then he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 All[b] the nations will be assembled before him,
and he will separate people one from another
like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He[c] will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 Then the king will say to those on his right,
‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father,
inherit the kingdom prepared for you
from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me food,
I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink,
I was a stranger and you invited me in,
36 I was naked and you gave me clothing,
I was sick and you took care of me,
I was in prison and you visited me.’

/
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
13,960
5,701
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Excerpt from the OP.

Over the years I have noticed a shift away from the embarrassment of the hell doctrine.
It had always seemed like the "fly in the ointment" of Christianity to me.
But we had biblical evidence that it was sad, but true.

The solution was evangelism. We are in the business of "saving souls from hell." Err...
I mean "eternal separation from God." (whatever that means to you) ???

1719500934234.jpeg

]
 

Behold

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2020
20,334
8,129
113
Netanya or Pensacola
Faith
Christian
Country
Israel
The solution was evangelism. We are in the business of "saving souls from hell."

"""""save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.""""

New Living Translation
Rescue others by snatching them from the flames of judgment. Show mercy to still others, but do so with great caution, hating the sins that contaminate their lives.

English Standard Version
save others by snatching them out of the fire; to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garment stained by the flesh.

Berean Standard Bible
save others by snatching them from the fire; and to still others show mercy tempered with fear, hating even the clothing stained by the flesh.

Berean Literal Bible
and save others, snatching them out of the fire; and show mercy to others with fear, hating even the clothing having been stained by the flesh.

King James Bible
And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

New King James Version
but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

New American Standard Bible
save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.

NASB 1995
save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.

NASB 1977
save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.

Legacy Standard Bible
and for others, save, snatching them out of the fire; and on others have mercy with fear, hating even the tunic polluted by the flesh.

Amplified Bible
save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy but with fear, loathing even the clothing spotted and polluted by their shameless immoral freedom.

Christian Standard Bible
save others by snatching them from the fire; have mercy on others but with fear, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
save others by snatching them from the fire; have mercy on others but with fear, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

American Standard Version
and some save, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
15,017
4,467
113
70
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Excerpt from the OP.

Over the years I have noticed a shift away from the embarrassment of the hell doctrine.
It had always seemed like the "fly in the ointment" of Christianity to me.
But we had biblical evidence that it was sad, but true.

The solution was evangelism. We are in the business of "saving souls from hell." Err...
I mean "eternal separation from God." (whatever that means to you) ???

View attachment 46961

]
Many do this because of not wishing to "upset" people. but we must be willing to warn some of the eternal fires of the lake of fire and it is a destination they will go if they die without trusting in Jesus.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Johann

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
13,960
5,701
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Many do this because of not wishing to "upset" people. but we must be willing to warn some of the eternal fires of the lake of fire and it is a destination they will go if they die without trusting in Jesus.
Countless billions have gone to the afterlife with no knowledge of Jesus whatsoever. Will you condemn them to hell?

]
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
15,017
4,467
113
70
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Countless billions have gone to the afterlife with no knowledge of Jesus whatsoever. Will you condemn them to hell?

]
I condemn no one. but Jesus HImself said that unless is born from above they cannot see the kingdom of God!

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Romans 10:9-15

King James Version

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Acts 4:12
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


Gods Word is clear! apart from trusting in Jesus, there is no salvation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Johann

quietthinker

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2018
13,811
8,760
113
FNQ
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
The word 'beleive' Ronald has greater implications than we tend to grasp.
'We' prescribe it as meaning adhering to a certain dogma collected and assembled.
I think we will be surprised when we finally see the outcome of this statement, 'the first will be last and the last will be first'
 
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen
J

Johann

Guest
Over the years I have noticed a shift away from the embarrassment of the hell doctrine.
Stop messing with the Scriptures.

According to recent polls, some 81 percent of adult Americans believe in heaven, and fully 80 percent expect to go there when they die. By comparison, about 61 percent believe in hell, but less than 1 percent think it's likely they will go there. In other words, a slight majority of Americans still believe hell exists, but genuine fear of hell is almost nonexistent.

Even the most conservative evangelicals don't seem to take hell very seriously anymore. For decades, many evangelicals have downplayed inconvenient biblical truths, neglecting any theme that seems to require somber reflection. Doctrines such as human depravity, divine wrath, the exceeding sinfulness of sin, and the reality of eternal judgment have disappeared from the evangelical message.

The trend has not escaped everyone's attention. Thirty years ago, for example, Martin Marty, religious historian, professor at the University of Chicago Divinity School, and critic of all things evangelical, delivered the Ingersoll Lecture on Immortality at Harvard Divinity School. The title of his message was "Hell Disappeared. No One Noticed." Marty's research had failed to turn up a single scholarly article dealing with the subject of hell in any significant theological journal over the previous century. Citing the dearth of attention being given to so large a topic, Marty suggested that if evangelicals really took seriously what Scripture says about eternal punishment, someone with a voice should notice.

Almost no one did. Eighteen years later, The Los Angeles Times featured a front-page article titled "Hold the Fire and Brimstone," pointing out that many style-conscious evangelical church leaders were purposely omitting the theme of divine retribution:

In churches across America, hell is being frozen out as clergy find themselves increasingly hesitant to sermonize on . . . a story line that no longer resonates with churchgoers. [According to] Harvey Cox Jr., an eminent author, religious historian and professor at the Harvard Divinity School, "You can go to a whole lot of churches week after week, and you'd be startled even to hear a mention of hell."

Hell's fall from fashion indicates how key portions of Christian theology have been influenced by a secular society that stresses individualism over authority and the human psyche over moral absolutes. The rise of psychology, the philosophy of existentialism, and the consumer culture have all dumped buckets of water on hell.

The article profiled an evangelical pastor who said he believes in hell, but (according to the Times) "you'd never know it listening to him preach. . . . He never mentions the topic; his flock shows little interest in it." Asked why the doctrine of hell has gone missing, this pastor replied, "It isn't sexy enough anymore."

The article also quoted a well-known seminary professor who more or less agreed. Hell, he said, is "just too negative. . . . Churches are under enormous pressure to be consumer-oriented. Churches today feel the need to be appealing rather than demanding."

The article closed with a quote from Martin Marty, almost two decades after his famous lecture on the subject. He agreed that market-driven concerns are the main reason hell is being expunged from the evangelical message:

Once pop evangelism went into market analysis, hell was just dropped. When churches go door to door and conduct a market analysis . . . they hear, "I want better parking spaces. I want guitars at services. I want to have my car greased while I'm in church."

Years of indifference finally paved the way for open hostility. In the first decade of the new millennium, certain prominent figures in the "emergent church" declared war on the biblical doctrine of hell. The groundswell seemed to crest a couple of years ago with the publication of Rob Bell's bestselling book Love Wins. Bell argued that it's absurd to think a loving God would ever damn anyone to eternal punishment. He portrayed God's love as a force that clashes with and ultimately eliminates the demands of justice. In the storyline Bell envisions, God requires no payment or punishment for sin. The divine response to evil is always remedial, never punitive. Furthermore, the wages of sin are mild, temporary, and reserved only for grossly malevolent villains—mass murderers, child rapists, tyrants who engineer genocide, and (one supposes) Christians who tell unbelievers they should fear God. When it's all over, everyone will be together in paradise.

In such a system, God's righteousness is compromised, repentance is optional, atonement is unnecessary, and the truth of God's Word is nullified. In other words, nothing of biblical Christianity is left. Once anyone sets out to tone down or tame the hard truths of Scripture, that's where the process inevitably leads.

Only a few leading voices in the evangelical movement have lobbied boldly for a more orthodox approach to the doctrine of hell. They seem to be outnumbered by those who think the disappearance of hell is a positive development.

Some have proposed alternative ways to speak of sin and judgment in gentler, toned-down, and more refined and socially acceptable terminology than Scripture uses. Sin is deemed wrong not because it is an offense against the righteousness of God, but because of the hurt it causes others. Hell is described not as a place of eternal punishment but simply as a realm apart from God. In the reimagined eschatology of stylish evangelicals, no one is ever "sent" to hell; sinners actually choose to spend eternity apart from God—and the "hell" they suffer is merely an abundance of what they loved and desired the most. Hell is necessary only because God is reluctant to overrule anyone's free will. Therefore, with a more or less benign acquiescence, He ultimately defers to the sinner's choice. God's righteous indignation has no meaningful place in such a scenario.

It is a serious mistake to imagine that we improve Scripture or enhance its effectiveness by blunting its sharp edges. Scripture is a sword, not a cotton swab, and it needs to be fully unsheathed before it can be put to its intended use. "The word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart" (Heb. 4:12). The gospel is supposed to be an affront to fleshly pride, offensive to human sensibilities, foolishness in the eyes of worldly wisdom, and contrary to all carnal judgments.

No Christian teaching exemplifies those characteristics more powerfully than the doctrine of hell. It is an appalling truth. We rightly recoil at the thought of it. The doctrine of hell thus stands as a warning and a reminder of what a loathsome reality sin is. No reasonable or godly person delights in the reality of eternal damnation. God Himself says, "As I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked" (Ezek. 33:11).

Yet the severity of God's wrath and the woes of hell are prominent in Scripture. The New Testament speaks more vividly and more frequently about hell than the Old Testament does. In fact, Jesus Himself had more to say about the subject than any other prophet or biblical writer. Far from smoothing over the difficulties that seem to embarrass so many evangelicals today, Jesus said:

Do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have nothing more that they can do. But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him! (Luke 12:4–5)

If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire. (Matt. 18:8–9)

We do no one any favors by downplaying the truth of God's wrath or neglecting to mention the severity of His judgment. We certainly don't eliminate the threat of hell by refusing to speak or think of it. If we truly believe what the Bible teaches about the eternal fate of unbelievers, it is in no sense "loving" to remain silent and refuse to sound the appropriate alarm.

What, after all, is the good news we proclaim in the gospel? It is not an announcement that no one really needs to fear God or fret about the possibility of hell. As a matter of fact, there would be no glad tidings at all if God merely intended to capitulate to the stubborn will of man and forgo the demands of His perfect righteousness.

The good news is even better than most believers understand: God made a way for His righteousness and His love to be fully reconciled. In His incarnation, Christ fulfilled all righteousness (satisfying, not nullifying, the demands of His law). In His death on the cross, He paid the price of His people's sin in full (assuring the triumph of perfect justice). And in His resurrection from the dead, He put a powerful exclamation mark on His own perfect, finished work of atonement (thus sealing the promise of justification forever for those who trust Him as Lord and Savior).

That is the message we must declare to a worldly culture utterly lacking any real fear of God. We cannot do it faithfully or effectively if from the very outset we have omitted the harsh truth Scripture declares about "the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty" (Rev. 19:15).


J.
 
J

Johann

Guest
Perhaps but I too am saddened and offended to hear others describe our amazing and loving creator as an unforgiving sadist.
So sad you don't read the Scriptures.


DIGRESSION ON "ETERNAL"
THE GREEK WORD AIONIOS

ADDENDUM: Since this article has generated negative critical feedback from universalists, those who hold to the unbiblical belief that every soul ever born will be saved and saved forever, I have been prompted to add a short note at the beginning because a universalist will not likely read the entire article. Much could be said, but the essence of the truth stands or falls on one word.

What does the word eternal (aionios) mean as it is used in Scripture, NOT as it is used by secular writers, including ancient Greek writers? Thankfully, God's Spirit has used the word aionios numerous times so one may glean an excellent sense of what this word means in the Bible. Can you find Greek "authorities" who say aionios does not mean eternal? Absolutely, but every man that claims to be an "authority" on this word is also a sinner and his words are not inspired by God, and thus are fallible and subject to error (they are not inerrant)! Only God's Word is inspired by the Spirit of God (Who is the Spirit of Truth). Only God's Word is infallible. Only God's Word is inerrant. Therefore whatever God says on ANY subject is absolute truth, and takes absolute precedence over how the same word was used in the writings of fallen men. That said, here is what the GOD OF TRUTH SAYS about the crucial word ETERNAL (aionios) (And these are only a few examples to make the point).

Matthew 25:41 (WORDS OF JESUS) “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal (aionios) fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

COMMENT - Jesus clearly states those on His left are to depart into the "ETERNAL FIRE." So Jesus believes in an ETERNAL FIRE. Is that a fair statement based on His own declaration? Secondly, Jesus states this ETERNAL FIRE is a place which has been prepared for the DEVIL. So that begs a question -- If ETERNAL FIRE is not real, then will the devil be let out of that place at some point in the future? Clearly there is no Scripture that supports that premise. In fact John records the devil's fate in Revelation 20:10+ "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." How long will the devil be tormented according to John? These passages strongly support the premise that eternal fire will last forever, throughout eternity.

Matthew 25:46 (WORDS OF JESUS) “These will go away into eternal (aionios) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (aionios) life.”

COMMENT - What is Jesus contrasting? Eternal punishment and eternal life. Correct? According to Jesus how long is life? Eternal. According to Jesus how long is punishment? Eternal. One can parse Jesus' words or attempt specious, clever word games, but His words are very simple and straightforward and clearly indicate that there are two states of every man ever born, either eternal punishment or eternal life. There is no middle ground. And if one argues that aionios does not mean "eternal" than they are painting themselves into a theological corner, because if eternal punishment is not forever, then eternal life is not forever and we are all in a hopeless situation!

Paul uses aionos to describe the nature of God writing

but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal (aionios) God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith. (Ro 16:26)

COMMENT - If aionios does not mean eternal, then one is forced to say from this passage that God will not exist forever, which of course is absolutely absurd. Aionios in this context clearly means eternal, everlasting, forever and ever. Amen!

Paul again uses aionos in a description of one aspect of God writing

Who (GOD) Alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, Whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal (aionios) dominion! Amen. (1 Ti 6:16)

COMMENT - Paul is blessing God and ascribing to Him eternal dominion. Dominion is kratos which refers to inherent strength which displays itself in the rule over others. It follows that if God's kratos is not eternal, at some point He will not have the strength to rule. Again this is clearly not true or otherwise we are all left without any hope of eternal life. Again, it is clear that aionios in this context means eternal, everlasting, forever, without end!

The writer of Hebrews uses aionos in a description of God the Spirit writing

how much more will the blood of Christ, Who through the eternal (aionios)Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? (Hebrews 9:14)

COMMENT - Once again, if one proposes that aionios does not mean eternal, then they are forced to conclude that the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Jesus, the Spirit of Jesus Christ, will not exist forever. Again such logic is not logic, but lies. Eternal means forever and ever. Amen.

If we let the Bible be our plumbline regarding the meaning of the Greek word aionios, then clearly the Biblical uses of this word indicates the meaning is forever, without end, eternal. And while it is not my favorite theological truth, it is clear from the Word of God that there will be eternal punishment for every soul that does not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ while they still have breath in their lungs and a beat in their heart. Do not believe the lie of Satan, "You surely will not die." (Ge 3:4+)! Today is the acceptable time. Today is the day of salvation. (2 Cor 6:2) Believe the truth spoken by Jesus, Who Alone is the Way, the Truth and the Life (John 14:6) and Who Alone has the words of eternal (aionios) life (John 6:68)


J.
 
J

Johann

Guest
Jesus has more to say about the all to real eternal lake of fire than all others ==The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 13:40-43).
Preach it @GISMYS_7

J.