Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
But your comprehension of Hades is really bad!
I know, I have lots of them in my family.
Hell, Sheol, Hades...
- Thread starter GRACE ambassador
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
They apparenting aren't sleeping - but experiencing much terror.
Go ahead and spend some more time with those scriptures.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Everyone who dies goes to hell Ron, simply another English word used for the abode of the dead. Jesus was no exception, and was the first to be resurrected from it permanently.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Might you share those scriptures Scott, I would be curious as to what you have sir
Webers_Home
Well-Known Member
.
• Matt 16:18 . . I will build my church; and the gates of Hell shall not prevail
against it.
The Greek word translated "Hell" in that passage is haides which refers to
the unseen world of the dead-- all the dead regardless of age, race, gender,
or religious preference.
* Back in the days of walled cities, entrances looked sort of like double
doors, hence the plural form of gate.
Anyway; the obvious entrance to haides is death. Well; in the pagan mind,
death is permanent, viz: you're gone forever and you're never coming back.
But Jesus says- in so many words --death for his own isn't permanent, i.e.
they're coming back because death for them isn't the end-all.
• John 11:25-26 . . He who believes in me; though he may die, he shall live.
_
• Matt 16:18 . . I will build my church; and the gates of Hell shall not prevail
against it.
The Greek word translated "Hell" in that passage is haides which refers to
the unseen world of the dead-- all the dead regardless of age, race, gender,
or religious preference.
* Back in the days of walled cities, entrances looked sort of like double
doors, hence the plural form of gate.
Anyway; the obvious entrance to haides is death. Well; in the pagan mind,
death is permanent, viz: you're gone forever and you're never coming back.
But Jesus says- in so many words --death for his own isn't permanent, i.e.
they're coming back because death for them isn't the end-all.
• John 11:25-26 . . He who believes in me; though he may die, he shall live.
_
Beutiful way of telling us AGAIN that being dead is the opposite of being alive
Luc.9:24 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake is the one who will save it.
(See also Matt.10:39; 16:25 and Mark 8:35).
Actually, loosing (and saving) the life here in Greek, is literally loosing (and saving) the soul (Gr., psy·kheʹ [ψυχή]).
If the soul is something tangible, alive and conscious, how could then a person loose it for the sake of Jesus?
Precious friend brother Johann, here is my first of Final three parts of a discussion with @St. SteVen about that subject:
Biblical Conclusion Of universalism - Part 1
Amen.
Excellent work, rightly dividing the Scriptures!
But did it change his belief? Not at all!
Don't be a stranger.
Johann.
Thank God that is His Area of "Conforming us", eh?
"For whom He Did Foreknow, He Also Did Predestinate To Be Conformed to the image
of His SON, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29 AV)
Amen.
Hebrews 13:9
"Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them."
1 Timothy 1:3-4
"As I urged you when I went into Macedonia—remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine, nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith."
1 Timothy 4:1
"Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons."
2 Timothy 4:3
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers."
Titus 1:9-11
"Holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict. For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain."
Galatians 1:6-9
"I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed."
2 Peter 2:1
"But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction."
1 John 4:1
"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world."
Ephesians 4:14
"That we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting."
Colossians 2:8
"Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ."
These scriptures focus on warnings against false teachings, deceptive doctrines, and the importance of adhering to sound doctrine.
Not so-eh?
J.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
The Christian Greek
The journey into deep study
I have touched on this topic before but I am not sure if people understood it. And there is enough information about it to fill a book so I am only going to be able to give you some basic facts and if you are interested in it you will have to take it and look into it yourself.
The surviving examples that we have of the New Testament shows that it was mostly written in Koiné Greek. There were other languages like Aramaic and Hebrew but only minimally so for the purposes of this essay I am focusing on the Koiné Greek.
Christians that want to get into a deeper study of the Bible may get into word analysis. They usually look the word up in the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance or a Lexicon or the internet, and for most words this will lead to accurate information. But there are topics that these sources will not give you accurate information and could even lead to a false understanding or a false belief. First thing ditch the King James Version it will do nothing but send you in the wrong direction.
(First a look at the word Pagan it is one of those words that can be misleading. Today if you say Pagan it conjures up thought of witches and occultic rituals. Actually the word pagan comes from the Latin word paganus, which originally meant "country dweller" or "civilian". The word Pagan became popular around the second half of the 4th century CE to refer to non-Christians. Kind of like the word Gentile which means non-Jew.)
To continue….So again what is the confusion about? It was initially caused by differences in morality, between the Christians and the Pagans—Greco-Romans. I have spoken about the challenge the Apostles had with writing the New Testament in Koiné Greek because it was a Pagan language that did not have words that expressed Christian morals or terms. This is no surprise! There is no reason to expect a Pagan language or society or culture to have words that express Christian morals or terms or concepts.
So the Apostles had to improvise and at times the early translators would just insert more modern words which added to the confusion. It is pretty involved and that is why I simply call it Christian Greek….let me give you a couple simple example…The topic being Hell and Hades, I have a full essay on this so I will try to keep it brief with short absolute statements that will be explained in detail in the essay on Hell and Hades.
The fiery place of eternal punishment is a New Testament thing. God never threatened the Israelites with a fiery place of eternal punishment and Satan does not show up in the OT as a devil or demon. For that reason the Jews did not believe in a Hell or a devil and still do not believe in them today. So if you have a Bible that has the words Hades or Hell in the OT….you need to get another Bible because it is wrong.
In the Bible the fiery place of eternal punishment does not show up until the NT. The problem is that the Koiné Greek did not have a word for a fiery place of eternal punishment so Christ would either use an example like Gehenna which was a fiery trash dump or He and the Apostles would use the Greek word Hades and change the definition. Some translators would insert the word Hell which did not exist in any language for another 7 centuries after the biblical era.
Hades was actually a mythological Greek god that reigned over an underworld prison of sorts of the same name, which was nowhere near as bad as the fiery place of punishment, but that was the closest Greek word that they had so they used it and modified the definition.
Another simple example is the word sin….To the Greeks the word sin meant you missed your target as in arrow or spear, no moral meaning. But the Christians changed the meaning of this word to mean a transgression against God or disobedience.
Here is another example…
A Roman named Romulus Packumus LOL tells his friend that he is going to get a prostitute for the evening and asks if he should get a temple prostitute or one down at the squire way? His friend says that the ones down on squire are more expensive, better looking, and more enthusiastic. So Romulus goes down and has a prostitute. And then he goes home where he has murals on the walls and maybe the floors of prostitutes and people having sex…which was common in Roman homes. Now keeping in mind that the Romans have no concept of sin as wrong doing…to them the word sin means their arrow missed the target….no religious connection. So what he did was completely legal and more than socially acceptable whether he was married or not…it was normal. So what did the Christians do with this?
The Greek word for Prostitute πουτάνα, means the same in the Greek as it does in English, but Prostitution was acceptable in the Roman culture and considered a norm. The Christians changed the context of this word and redefined it as a sin.
continued.....
Last edited:
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Sexual sins
Now there are different types of sexual sins that are actually listed individually in the scriptures….
πορνείας·… porneias … General sexual acts
πορνείᾳ … Porneiai … Sexual acts in the plural
πορνεῦσαι … Sexual activities.
πορνείαν … Sexual activity connected to a Greek god or temple.
πόρνος … A sexual person, male or female
πόρνοι … Referring to a group having sex…orgy?
πορνεῖαι … Sexual thoughts
Then in modern Bibles these words are mostly lumped into the phrase “sexual immorality” which is less descriptive. In older Bibles like the Geneva Bible and the King James Bible these words are lumped into the word fornication. Fornication is not a Greek word nor is it a biblical word, it comes from the Latin. It is a false theological word. Some words were created to promote beliefs that existed centuries after the biblical period. And then the translators inserted them in the older translations of the Bible.
Fornication was coined in the Latin around the 4th century and it is based on a connection to prostitution. This word makes its way into the older Bibles with an additional meaning….two single people having sex being defined as a sin. Lumping all the Greek words together reduces the accuracy of the scriptures but defining two single people having sex as a sin skews the reality of the time period, a lot of it.
Since the beginning of the biblical record and even recorded history, two single people having sex formed a marriage. There is no biblical requirement for a wedding ceremony. The word wedding does not appear in the actual scriptures Old or New Testament. It was the Protestants in the mid 1500’s that first required a church wedding ceremony to be married and the Catholic Church soon followed suite. But still religiously and legally the union forms the marriage As it is you can have a wedding put if you do not have sex, you can get the marriage annulled. The union forms the marriage.
The definition of fornication… The consensus of modern dictionaries states that fornication is consensual sexual intercourse between people who aren't married to one another.
So the definition of fornication is saying that everybody in history sinned when they formed a marriage, because they were single when they had sex to form a marriage. Some modern definitions define fornication as casual sex, which would be more accurate but still it is not necessary to put a non-biblical word in Bibles. But still it has become part of Christian terminologies – the Christian language. Just as other non-biblical theological words and phrases that cause inaccuracies and false beliefs. I have a essay on fornication.
But back to the point of the Christian Greek, you can see that the Christians were taking Greek words and redefining them. They really did not have much of a choice….but as it is in modern times if you look up a Greek word at times you are likely to get the Christian Greek definition for it, like it is a matter of fact. Christian Greek has created it own placebo history and resource references.
And there were other words that were redefined to the Christian Greek. Jesus is another word that came about in the 17th century. No one knows where it came from and it translates to nothing in Koiné Greek, but yet if you look it up nearly all sources will tell you it was translated from the Greek word Ἰησοῦς – Iésous, this is false. Iésous is not a name it is a Greek word that means healer and it cannot be translated from Yeshua or to Jesus. Keep in mind that there are no J’s in the scriptures ….Yahweh, Yeshua, Yob, Yacob, Yericho etc. besides, do you think no one knew Christ’s name until the 17th century??!! Surprisingly and odd Christ’s name does not appear in the New Testament. It does appear in the Old Testament because it was a common Jewish name.……Yeshua….Jeshua or Joshua after all the Y’s were change to J’s during the great J slam.
Again we have a Christian language that permeates the resource material to the point that for the “average Christian” it can be confusing and hard to find the truth. You can ask a simple question about biblical Greek and you get a Christian Greek explanation for it like it is actually Koiné Greek.
Between this language shuffle and theological literary style of the biblical time period where any one Apostle would speak to either extreme of a topic it can make it confusing….ever notice that when people debate on this forum they can throw seeming opposing scriptures at one another that came from the same Apostle….no wonder we have so many denominations!
Like I said it is a complicated topic and it takes a lot of study to get a handle on it. But just keep an eye out for it because you will run into it. And as always keeping things in perspective something as simple as the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance is more than 95% accurate but it has errors in regard to some very important words because it is tied to the KJV and inherits all its errors . You just need to ask yourself is there a reason to expect that this Christian word or term or even this Christian morality to be in the Greek language.
From there if you are serious about Bible study get a high end Lexicon.
Also find some books on the history of 1st century Christianity and you will learn why the New Testament does not have a focus on romantic love and marriage, or a focus on family and why it seems there is negative view of wealth. And what happened to Christianity when Yeshua did not return soon.
Now there are different types of sexual sins that are actually listed individually in the scriptures….
πορνείας·… porneias … General sexual acts
πορνείᾳ … Porneiai … Sexual acts in the plural
πορνεῦσαι … Sexual activities.
πορνείαν … Sexual activity connected to a Greek god or temple.
πόρνος … A sexual person, male or female
πόρνοι … Referring to a group having sex…orgy?
πορνεῖαι … Sexual thoughts
Then in modern Bibles these words are mostly lumped into the phrase “sexual immorality” which is less descriptive. In older Bibles like the Geneva Bible and the King James Bible these words are lumped into the word fornication. Fornication is not a Greek word nor is it a biblical word, it comes from the Latin. It is a false theological word. Some words were created to promote beliefs that existed centuries after the biblical period. And then the translators inserted them in the older translations of the Bible.
Fornication was coined in the Latin around the 4th century and it is based on a connection to prostitution. This word makes its way into the older Bibles with an additional meaning….two single people having sex being defined as a sin. Lumping all the Greek words together reduces the accuracy of the scriptures but defining two single people having sex as a sin skews the reality of the time period, a lot of it.
Since the beginning of the biblical record and even recorded history, two single people having sex formed a marriage. There is no biblical requirement for a wedding ceremony. The word wedding does not appear in the actual scriptures Old or New Testament. It was the Protestants in the mid 1500’s that first required a church wedding ceremony to be married and the Catholic Church soon followed suite. But still religiously and legally the union forms the marriage As it is you can have a wedding put if you do not have sex, you can get the marriage annulled. The union forms the marriage.
The definition of fornication… The consensus of modern dictionaries states that fornication is consensual sexual intercourse between people who aren't married to one another.
So the definition of fornication is saying that everybody in history sinned when they formed a marriage, because they were single when they had sex to form a marriage. Some modern definitions define fornication as casual sex, which would be more accurate but still it is not necessary to put a non-biblical word in Bibles. But still it has become part of Christian terminologies – the Christian language. Just as other non-biblical theological words and phrases that cause inaccuracies and false beliefs. I have a essay on fornication.
But back to the point of the Christian Greek, you can see that the Christians were taking Greek words and redefining them. They really did not have much of a choice….but as it is in modern times if you look up a Greek word at times you are likely to get the Christian Greek definition for it, like it is a matter of fact. Christian Greek has created it own placebo history and resource references.
And there were other words that were redefined to the Christian Greek. Jesus is another word that came about in the 17th century. No one knows where it came from and it translates to nothing in Koiné Greek, but yet if you look it up nearly all sources will tell you it was translated from the Greek word Ἰησοῦς – Iésous, this is false. Iésous is not a name it is a Greek word that means healer and it cannot be translated from Yeshua or to Jesus. Keep in mind that there are no J’s in the scriptures ….Yahweh, Yeshua, Yob, Yacob, Yericho etc. besides, do you think no one knew Christ’s name until the 17th century??!! Surprisingly and odd Christ’s name does not appear in the New Testament. It does appear in the Old Testament because it was a common Jewish name.……Yeshua….Jeshua or Joshua after all the Y’s were change to J’s during the great J slam.
Again we have a Christian language that permeates the resource material to the point that for the “average Christian” it can be confusing and hard to find the truth. You can ask a simple question about biblical Greek and you get a Christian Greek explanation for it like it is actually Koiné Greek.
Between this language shuffle and theological literary style of the biblical time period where any one Apostle would speak to either extreme of a topic it can make it confusing….ever notice that when people debate on this forum they can throw seeming opposing scriptures at one another that came from the same Apostle….no wonder we have so many denominations!
Like I said it is a complicated topic and it takes a lot of study to get a handle on it. But just keep an eye out for it because you will run into it. And as always keeping things in perspective something as simple as the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance is more than 95% accurate but it has errors in regard to some very important words because it is tied to the KJV and inherits all its errors . You just need to ask yourself is there a reason to expect that this Christian word or term or even this Christian morality to be in the Greek language.
From there if you are serious about Bible study get a high end Lexicon.
Also find some books on the history of 1st century Christianity and you will learn why the New Testament does not have a focus on romantic love and marriage, or a focus on family and why it seems there is negative view of wealth. And what happened to Christianity when Yeshua did not return soon.
Last edited:
Similar threads
